 Interesting video of HMG/Autocannon in action, not for children... |
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 Mar 23 2004, 05:56 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 409 Joined: 9-March 04 Member No.: 6,140  |
If that was an Apache, then the cannon was 30mm, probably DU too. Nice of them to finish off that wounded guy.
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Mar 23 2004, 06:20 AM
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#27
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
they do, indeed. the Longbow upgrade, i believe, has an improved FLIR system. and that does look like the FLIR display on an Apache; however, i can't say for sure that the Little Bird doesn't use the same system. (it'd make sense if they did, but the US Army isn't really built around sense.)
i have to doubt those were DU rounds. we don't use them very often anymore. |
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Mar 23 2004, 06:23 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 288 Joined: 3-December 03 From: Boston, Mass Member No.: 5,874 |
In all honesty he probably wouldn't have lasted that long. At the end of Vietnam, it became logistically clear that it was more difficult for the enemy to take care of wounded than to burry the dead. Weapons development changed to make weapons that were better at mameing than out right killing. They're still finding explosives in Cambodia from unexploded cluster type bombs. The munitions fires off and carpets an area with small explosives spheres packed with explosives creating a mini claymore. Unexploded ordances are all over the place. Kids find them thnking the yellow spheres are toys and if they're lucky they just loose an arm or a leg.
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Mar 23 2004, 07:36 AM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
So where was this video shot, and how recent is it?
Those are the second and third questions my girlfriend asked me as she looked over at the screen and saw the video playing. The first was why something like this would be on a game forum, which I wasn't able to answer. |
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Mar 23 2004, 07:46 AM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Well it's a RL perspective on how an autocannon works and why you should include a small blast radius when resolving autocannon damage. It's very relevant to the game and it is indeed rare that such a display is available with which to fine tune the game rules, however gruesome. I'm not able to answer your girl friends questions I'm sorry. I'm sure we are all adults and able to handle it. If you were for some reason offended, I don't apologize and you can view my disclaimer in the thread title. |
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Mar 23 2004, 07:54 AM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123 |
You've got me all wrong, I wasn't offended at all. I just wasn't able to explain it to her in a satisfactory way, and now she thinks I'm a little weird for playing games that involve gory films of people being reduced to kibble.
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Mar 23 2004, 11:36 AM
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#32
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The explosions are so large, the rounds are most likely M789 HEDP (and not kinetic energy penetrators, DU or any other kind). 21.5g shaped charge, claimed to be lethal up to 10ft and to penetrate 2" of armor steel.
If I had to guess, I'd say it's from Operation Allied Force or Noble Anvil, Kosovo '99. But that's not based on anything. Might as well be from the 1st Gulf War. Seems somewhat unlikely that it'd be from the 2nd one. Area damage for Autocannons would make a lot of sense (as long as they're firing explosive shells), but that's pretty hard to do with the SR rules. For single shots it's not bad, but for autofire... Anyone got suggestions how to make it work without some sort of mathematical or dice-rolling nightmare? |
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Mar 23 2004, 12:04 PM
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#33
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Not familiar with military practice is it is depicted in that clip, why did they have to wait for movement to destroy the vehicles?
EDIT: Watched it again, I think I found out why. It seems they were making sure they killed all the people first before usingrounds on the vehicles, I guess they wanted to make sure the people were dead before using their limited ammo on vehicles. |
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Mar 23 2004, 02:19 PM
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#34
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
could've been any number of reasons. at a guess, the reason was that the trucks weren't the primary target--the people were. they probably mentioned the trucks simply as reference points.
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Mar 23 2004, 02:23 PM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Nope, the gunner kept asking to kill the trucks, it seemed he was more interested in shooting them (with good reason, they are not people I would assume). The only time the trucks became a reference is when the wounded person was trying to make an escape, as best he could. The people were the obvious target, I was just wondering why the gunner kept waiting to see movement before shooting the cars.
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Mar 23 2004, 02:55 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
I don't see why it'd be that difficult. It would just require a slight tweaking of the explosive rounds rules for autocannons. Instead of simply increasing the power by 1 or 2, explosive autocannon rounds have the same damage level as normal, but the blast radius of a defensive HE grenade. When it hits, you can calculate explosive staging as per normal (roll half the power against TN 4, stage up for every two successes). This staging would be for determining damage of the explosion, and any extra successes on the ranged combat test would only apply to unfortunates actually hit by the rounds (in addition to explosive staging. Ouch.) As for burst fire, same deal, but the power and damage level increases for a burst. To determine explosive staging, roll half the power, modified by the burst. So say your combat monster is firing a 10S autocannon with explosive rounds in a five round burst: stage up the damage code to 15D for burst fire, blast radius is the same as a defensive HE grenade, and the explosion's staging is one level (from deadly) for every two successes on a 7D6 vs TN 4 test. |
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Mar 23 2004, 03:09 PM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
First I was like "WHAAAT?!", until I realized SR has def and off grenades mixed up... Still, that would make small cannons too deadly IMO. Even in a non-shaped charge setup, I doubt a RL 20mm cannon could manage a lethal radius of more than 10ft/3m. At -2/m, even an itsy-bitsy PAC would be almost guaranteed to kill unarmored personnel in a 6 meter radius. With the autocannons this would be just as bad, although the fact that a 12-rnd burst of AC goodness is still just +12 Power helps a bit. Vigilant on FA with Explosive ammo would do 30D, -2/m, for a lethal radius of 12 meters. Though I guess that's sort of realistic. It does mean, however, that autocannons would become absolute personnel-killers, capable of reducing even your most horrible cyberplatedmilspechardened cyclopses to a bloody pulp in 1 second flat (assuming a decent rigger), without even needing to roll much anything. Hey, the more I think about this, the more I'm liking it! :vegm:
No such thing. You're thinking about HMGs, for which explosive rounds do not have a significant area effect. |
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Mar 23 2004, 03:17 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 347 Joined: 31-January 04 Member No.: 6,045 |
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Mar 23 2004, 03:39 PM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
The hard thing to factor-in is how the scatter of the bullets on autofire would affect the area damage. I'm trying to get a system whereby the power of the area damage is increased by the standard 1/bullet fired rules but I can't get the area to behave how I want it. Also: If the recoil was not compensaed well, the spread would bewider but less powerful.
What area would you say the blast radius of the 20 round bursts in that video were? |
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Mar 23 2004, 03:39 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
T AUSTERE: For the blast radius, I simply chose the type of grenade I knew had the lower radius, but perhaps -4 per meter is more appropriate.
Also, you're right that all autocannons have a base D damage rating. But I think this should be viewed as being based on them having normal, large slug rounds that just sink into whatever they hit. IMO, being explosive should lower the base damage level (while the explosion istelf can potentially raise it) just as a balance mechanism. |
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Mar 23 2004, 03:39 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 402 Joined: 23-April 03 From: London, UK Member No.: 4,491 |
How true. |
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Mar 23 2004, 03:51 PM
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#42
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
If hand grenades and minigrenades are 10S, something like 6S-8S would probably be appropriate for the blast of an autocannon HE round. However, the person getting hit by one should still be getting the 18D (or 20D).
The 20-round bursts in the clip don't look like they'd be lethal to more than 5 meters away. How would(/should, in your opinion) suppressive fire work with fully automatic weapons with a blast radius? |
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Mar 23 2004, 04:12 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
Messily :eek: :twirl: :dead: |
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Mar 23 2004, 04:54 PM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,109 Joined: 16-October 03 From: Raleigh, NC Member No.: 5,729 |
Ask any Mk 19 gunner. He'll tell you happily. :spin: |
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Mar 23 2004, 05:02 PM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Yes, I suppose things like this aren't exactly the best image builder. Especially if your trying to convince that significant other to let you game just one more night per week.... :D |
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Mar 23 2004, 05:38 PM
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#46
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm pretty sure I know how it works IRL. What I want to know is, how would it work out in SR, rules-wise?
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Mar 23 2004, 05:47 PM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Extend the danger zone by the blast of the bullet. If the one normal bullet covers a meter then the that exploding piece of hell will now cover 5 meters or what ever the radius would be. If some poor schumk is hit in an over lapping area then he had to resist both or 5 shots. :) Just a thought.
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Mar 23 2004, 06:51 PM
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#48
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 669 Joined: 25-May 03 Member No.: 4,634 |
While sensible, this does get into the whole "dice rolling nightmare" mentioned earlier. My idea was to simply use the burst-fire modification to a shot. Blast radius is based on the power of the blast, decreasing by a set amount per meter. A 20-round burst with a 6S explosion which weakens at -4 power per meter would have a blast power of 26 and disperse over a 6-and-a-half meter radius area. |
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Mar 23 2004, 09:53 PM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
How about just saying that they can't dodge?
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Mar 23 2004, 10:31 PM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
WARNING: Secondhand (maybe 3rd-hand) info from the first time i saw that link.
That is suppositly GW2 footage, apparently shown on TV a short time ago. That bag/tarp under the tractor was holding an an RPG, that was being stashed. That is why the guy is frantically pulling it out after the first burst hit, thinking he would be able to return fire. EDIT: This is the end or middle of a longer version that shows the RPG being stashed. |
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