A new take on hacker attributes, Intuition instead of Logic Options

[K1ll5w1tch]

I've been thinking about dispensing with programs altogether. I'm not sure the current way they're handled is really so fun-inspiring that it needs to be twisted and tortured until it "works".

That would require rewritting the entire hacking system from the ground up. Everyting in the system is based on program rating.

[StealthSigma]

I just want to toss out that I wouldn't completely discredit intuition based hacking. There are differences between instincts and intuition but I don't feel like getting into that argument.

All "logic" can be broken down into deductive or inductive reasoning. With inductive reasoning you take in a number of specifics and are able to deduce a general state. Deductive reasoning works from the general down to the specifics.

Many times, inductive reasoning can be reliant on intuition and logic. Einstein (Intuition 6, Logic 6) used inductive reasoning to come to some of theories and he had a nose for sniffing out how the universe worked. Patton (Intuition 6, Logic 6 [his ability to memorize things was incredible]) had an inexplicable ability to understand and grasp a battlefield far superior than other generals as well as having a keen understanding of what needed to be done to boost morale of his troops. An example would be taking Palermo in Sicily. The city was of zero strategic value but taking it gave US forces significant morale boosts.

Intuition should indicate the ability to change on the fly while logic is the ability to think quickly and act upon that. An intuitive hacker is going to be able to better grasp events as the unfold and identify weaknesses or other ways to exploit the situation. An Intuition 4/Logic 4 hacker should be better overall than an Intuition 2/Logic 6 hacker.

I think it's a bit of a deficiency in the system that Intuition, as an attribute, plays a highly narrow role where outside of Initiative and Perception, very few characters have an actual need to use it.

[sabs]

Threading seems to make perfect sense to me.

if I thread myself a rating 8 program as a technomancer, I can have 8 hits. That's pretty sweet.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

with program*1 then it still comes down to whats the difference between the elite experienced hacker and a trust fund script kiddie with lot of money in a tricked out comm, they'll both end at the same point maxing out their hits. All you're doing is changing skill+program for skill+logic all you'll get over the script kiddie is maybe 2 or 3 extra dice for a better logic big deal, you might get 1 extra success outta that ever now and then average wise. At least with program*2 you can get a few extra successes over a wannabe hacker with tons of cash, and makes having the lower level programs more viable. With a limit on 6 successes it just become a race to rating 6 program so I can start maxing out my rolls instead of loosing successes to this crap program.

Throwing a lot of cash at a problem often solves that problem. A script Kiddie with SOTA PRograms may get lucky on ocassion. Probably not, but there you go. You will still have a difference in Dice Pools.

The Absolute Best Agent you can have will be a Rated 6 Agent, so 12 Dice (Capped at 6 for max of Rating 6 program). The Typical Script Kiddies may have 6-10 Dice, capped by Program, whatever that rating may be (Once you go beyond Skill of 2, you are no longer a Script Kiddie in my opinion, you have become a professional hacker). While your Elite Hacker is going to have anywhere from 12-20 Dice consistently, and has access to those HIGH END Programs that the Script Kiddie cannot program himself, and has not got the connections to obtain on the black market, nor the skills to actually steal from the Military or other Government/Corporate facility.

In the end, the Hacker will far outshine the Script Kiddie, even at Caps limited to Program Rating. Program*2 will definitely extend those limits, which will make a difference at the middle Ranges, to be sure. But you would never need a program rated above 6 in that case. I like the fact that Programs go to Rating 10. Want the best you can get, get the best programs (beg, borrow, steal, trade, or create them yourself), which means ratings higher than 6.

Hopefully that makes a bit of sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Threading seems to make perfect sense to me.

if I thread myself a rating 8 program as a technomancer, I can have 8 hits. That's pretty sweet.

Which is one of the benefits of a Technomancer in our games. No need to spend that Edge to break the Program Caps, just Thread it up a bit.

[Ascalaphus]

That would require rewritting the entire hacking system from the ground up. Everyting in the system is based on program rating.

You can replace a lot of that with Attribute+Skill actually. Programs are only tricky to remove when their rating is a threshold for some test against it, really.

I just want to toss out that I wouldn't completely discredit intuition based hacking. There are differences between instincts and intuition but I don't feel like getting into that argument.

All "logic" can be broken down into deductive or inductive reasoning. With inductive reasoning you take in a number of specifics and are able to deduce a general state. Deductive reasoning works from the general down to the specifics.

Many times, inductive reasoning can be reliant on intuition and logic. Einstein (Intuition 6, Logic 6) used inductive reasoning to come to some of theories and he had a nose for sniffing out how the universe worked. Patton (Intuition 6, Logic 6 [his ability to memorize things was incredible]) had an inexplicable ability to understand and grasp a battlefield far superior than other generals as well as having a keen understanding of what needed to be done to boost morale of his troops. An example would be taking Palermo in Sicily. The city was of zero strategic value but taking it gave US forces significant morale boosts.

Intuition should indicate the ability to change on the fly while logic is the ability to think quickly and act upon that. An intuitive hacker is going to be able to better grasp events as the unfold and identify weaknesses or other ways to exploit the situation. An Intuition 4/Logic 4 hacker should be better overall than an Intuition 2/Logic 6 hacker.

I think it's a bit of a deficiency in the system that Intuition, as an attribute, plays a highly narrow role where outside of Initiative and Perception, very few characters have an actual need to use it.

Intuition makes sense to use in Hacking, but,

A) Logic is so obvious too; it would be weird not to use it in hacking
B) It's better if you need more than one Attribute for hacking anyway; combat uses Agility, Body and Reaction (optional Strength, Willpower and Intuition), magic uses Willpower+Magic+Drain Stat. Why should hacking use only one Attribute?

[StealthSigma]

Intuition makes sense to use in Hacking, but,

A) Logic is so obvious too; it would be weird not to use it in hacking
B) It's better if you need more than one Attribute for hacking anyway; combat uses Agility, Body and Reaction (optional Strength, Willpower and Intuition), magic uses Willpower+Magic+Drain Stat. Why should hacking use only one Attribute?

That kind of sums up what bothers me about hacking attributes. You can, technically, do combat with just Agility. Body, Reaction, and Strength just provide enough incentives that they're worth taking. There's no other attribute you need aside from Willpower/Body to deal with biofeedback. Charisma is all but pointless and you can easily get away with taking an average intuition.

[K1ll5w1tch]

You can replace a lot of that with Attribute+Skill actually. Programs are only tricky to remove when their rating is a threshold for some test against it, really.




Intuition makes sense to use in Hacking, but,

A) Logic is so obvious too; it would be weird not to use it in hacking
B) It's better if you need more than one Attribute for hacking anyway; combat uses Agility, Body and Reaction (optional Strength, Willpower and Intuition), magic uses Willpower+Magic+Drain Stat. Why should hacking use only one Attribute?

Personally I always wondered why it didn't work like lockpicking, Skill + autopicker + attribute. But to change that you'd have to modify all the thresholds to account for the increased dice pool.

[sabs]

You can include program options that you have to postmarket program in yourself that let you do things like:

Pushing the Edge:R1-3
This program optimization allows the user to increase the Hits limit of the program by it's rating.
A Rating 3 Program with R3 Pushing the Edge would have a Max Hits limit of 6, instead of the standard 3.

Logic+Software(Rx4)1 week
To install this optimization you must first break the copy protection and then modify the program to run on your commlink. OTS programs never have this optimization, though security spiders, and hackers often build this for their own systems.

Alternatively, you could have the exact same thing as a hardware component. Or a combination of both. R1-2 software, R1 Hardware mod. If you have both, you're all set.
And anything that allows for more diversity and more customization of your programs and commlinks is good.

[Stahlseele]

i present to you/remind you of:
The Ends of the Matrix

[tete]

Any hacking action you take involves rapidly processing, analyzing, and responding to changes in data. That is entirely within the boundaries of Logic.

When you have time sure, but sometimes you just have to go with your gut rather than waiting for nmap to report back that they are running server 2003.

[Epicedion]

When you have time sure, but sometimes you just have to go with your gut rather than waiting for nmap to report back that they are running server 2003.

If you want to "go with your gut" in hacking, be a Technomancer. Then your Intuition counts as your Response.

[Yerameyahu]

Except you also need Logic, and Willpower, etc.

It seems pretty arbitrary, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Except you also need Logic, and Willpower, etc.

It seems pretty arbitrary, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Intuition doesn't fix computer code. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Epicedion]

I'm actually going to revist this for a moment. I think what you're doing is equivocating "intuition," the bypassing of reason to come to a correct conclusion or the instinctive response, with "Intuition," the game attribute. They mean two different things.

If you apply little-i intuition to any skill in the game, you might turn up the same sort of rationale: "Well I just intuitively knew to pull the trigger, and my shot was perfect." Or, "I intuitively knew to cut the blue wire." Or, "I intuitively flung my arms out and happened to catch hold of a ledge before plummeting 20 stories to the pavement." The "instinctive response" angle you're looking for is really the result of training and practice.

That sort of intuition is pervasive. It's fair to say that, if you have to consider it in game terms, it's incorporated in any attribute + skill combo.

Big-I Intuition, however, is a game stat that covers things like perception and empathy. Intuition is what helps your character remember that the survivors are not, in fact, buried anywhere. Intuition is not, however, an understanding of "how to do the right thing." It's much more narrowly defined than that.

[Tyro]

I'm actually going to revist this for a moment. I think what you're doing is equivocating "intuition," the bypassing of reason to come to a correct conclusion or the instinctive response, with "Intuition," the game attribute. They mean two different things.

If you apply little-i intuition to any skill in the game, you might turn up the same sort of rationale: "Well I just intuitively knew to pull the trigger, and my shot was perfect." Or, "I intuitively knew to cut the blue wire." Or, "I intuitively flung my arms out and happened to catch hold of a ledge before plummeting 20 stories to the pavement." The "instinctive response" angle you're looking for is really the result of training and practice.

That sort of intuition is pervasive. It's fair to say that, if you have to consider it in game terms, it's incorporated in any attribute + skill combo.

Big-I Intuition, however, is a game stat that covers things like perception and empathy. Intuition is what helps your character remember that the survivors are not, in fact, buried anywhere. Intuition is not, however, an understanding of "how to do the right thing." It's much more narrowly defined than that.

You make a good point.

[Yerameyahu]

Fixing computer code also has nothing to do with Computer or Hacking. That's Programming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'll play your game, Epicedion:

Intuition covers “mental alertness”—the ability to take in and process information, to read a crowd, to assess a situation for danger or opportunity. A character with little Intuition may be unobservant, may rarely think things fully through, or could simply be “slow.” A character with a high Intuition is adept at making the best of a bad situation, knowing when to leave before an encounter escalates, noticing small clues, and working from instinct.

These all sound like SR4 hacking to me. It's a fast, active process.

Logic represents a character’s memorizing ability and raw brain-power. It denotes how fast a character learns, how much she can remember, and how well she can execute pre-planned sequences. A Logic-lacking character might get overwhelmed when confronted with a lot of details and may have a poor memory—especially for facts and figures. Characters with a high Logic rating will likely be excellent book-learners, able to deal with computer and magic theory with ease, and capable of building (and tearing down!) machinery and electronics.

This, on the other hand, doesn't sound like Hacking or Computer Use at all. It sounds like Programming, Build/Repair, etc. Slow things, certainly not 3+ IPs of psychedelic VR hacking.

[Tyro]

Fixing computer code also has nothing to do with Computer or Hacking. That's Programming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

<Intuition quote>
I'll play your game, Epicedion:These all sound like SR4 hacking to me. It's a fast, active process.

<Logic quote>
This, on the other hand, doesn't sound like Hacking or Computer Use at all. It sounds like Programming, Build/Repair, etc. Slow things, certainly not 3+ IPs of psychedelic VR hacking.

That's exactly what I was thinking; I just wasn't able to put it into words. Thank you, Yera.

[Epicedion]

Fixing computer code also has nothing to do with Computer or Hacking. That's Programming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I'll play your game, Epicedion:These all sound like SR4 hacking to me. It's a fast, active process.

This, on the other hand, doesn't sound like Hacking or Computer Use at all. It sounds like Programming, Build/Repair, etc. Slow things, certainly not 3+ IPs of psychedelic VR hacking.

I do love it when people play my games. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So would you then contend that AR hacking is Logic-based? That is, watching what the icons do and then typing at them to get them to respond how you want, at meatbody speeds?

Shooting a gun is Agility-based. Does the sheer speed of shooting that gun at 3+ IPs put it in the realm of Intuition?

These are all game mechanics.

In real life, every single one of your "attributes" factors into everything you do. A real life hacker would need Strength and Body to keep his limbs moving, the Willpower to stay focused for long periods of time, the Agility and Reaction to hit the keys quickly and accurately, the Logic to understand what he's doing, the Intuition to read a situation and make appropriate decisions, and the Charisma to convince the pizza delivery guy that he really only has two dollars for the tip.

In a game, though, you have to pick the most applicable one, since you can't make a Strength + Body + Willpower + Agility + Reaction + Logic + Intuition + Charisma + Hacking test. Just as you can't make a Body (resist fatigue) + Strength (manage recoil) + Agility (aim) + Reaction (quickly adjust to variations in the target's trajectory) + Logic (understand the operation of the firearm) + Intuition (predict the target's likely movement) + Charisma (psychologically affect the target to move where you want) test every time you fire a gun.

Every in-game action could conceivably draw on every attribute to some extent, but for the game to work you have to pick the best one. The most influential one.

For computers, that's Logic. Computers don't give a damn about what "feels right." Computers work under an incredibly strict set of rules, and the only way to be good at using them (coding for them, hacking them, etc) is to be able to quickly and correctly process those rules and respond with actions that exploit those rules to your own benefit.

In a nutshell, it's taking a rule the computer must obey, like "the sum of no more than two positive inputs less than two must equal 2" and saying, "ah HA, I can add .5 .5 .5 and .5 to equal two, which is FOUR positive inputs! Take that, program!" and breaking the whole program. Hacking is about exploiting flaws in code -- breaking programs and making them do what you want instead of what they're not supposed to do, and often are designed explicitly not to do. To exploit those kinds of flaws, you have to understand what logical steps the program is forced to follow.

Hacking in the Matrix is doing the exact same kind of thing, except much faster and with pretty pictures glued across the top of everything so your brain has something it can comprehend to work with.

[Yerameyahu]

Again, I really think that hacking in 2070 is basically playing a computer game. It's a twitchy FPS, not chess-by-mail; definitely not Infocom. You have to remember that *everyone* is a script kiddie, because the (conscious) mind just isn't fast enough. That's canon. I know that the Logic-hacker proponents are largely saying 'let's change that little bit of canon', and that's fine. I'm not saying that's wrong; you should extend the same courtesy, right?

*I'm* just saying you can't scoff at Tyro's position, not if you want the fluff and crunch on your side. The definition of Big-I Intuition doesn't support you, and the fluff doesn't.

AR hacking is basically the same as VR, just 2D. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can use DNI with AR, after all, and even manual AR isn't about typing.

Incidentally, shooting a gun *is* Intuition if you close your eyes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This is unrelated to anything, and doesn't make sense. Hehe.

[Epicedion]

Well if the video game analogy were true, hacking (and especially cybercombat) would really be more Reaction/Agility based, wouldn't it?

[Yerameyahu]

It is. Mentally, so Intuition. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Agility is for moving your body correctly. Reaction is moving your body… away; and, for historical/balance reasons, driving cars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[The Shuhite]

Lets see if this analogy works.

When my computer in RL doesn't do what I want it to, a lot of what I do is look for pictures and words that I think ought to be the right ones and then click them and see what happens and then if that doesn't work click some other things until it works. And while I'm not the best at computers, I'm very far from the worst. When I'm asked to help someone with a computer problem I usualy can't tell them how I did it after.

That sounds like big I Intuition to me.

Now take current computer tech and advance it 60 years and up the metaphors and graphics and I can totally understand saying that hacking is Intuition based

[Epicedion]

Lets see if this analogy works.

When my computer in RL doesn't do what I want it to, a lot of what I do is look for pictures and words that I think ought to be the right ones and then click them and see what happens and then if that doesn't work click some other things until it works. And while I'm not the best at computers, I'm very far from the worst. When I'm asked to help someone with a computer problem I usualy can't tell them how I did it after.

That sounds like big I Intuition to me.

Now take current computer tech and advance it 60 years and up the metaphors and graphics and I can totally understand saying that hacking is Intuition based

That is intuition. However, it's neither the optimal nor preferred method for fixing problems on your computer.

[Tyro]

If you're in a virtual space, I'd use intuition. AR hacking, I'd use Logic; Epicedion had a good point when they pointed out that AR hacking is much closer to traditional type-and-mouse computing. By the fluff, though, VR makes a LOT more sense as an Intuition-based medium.