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Tyro
The houserule I normally see used for hacker attributes is Logic + Skill, hits capped by Program Rating. The basic concept is sound; hackers should need more than programs and a nice commlink. However, I don't think Logic is the best choice. It's good for *writing* programs, but the fluff never made sense to me even in SR3 when hackers using Intelligence was RAW. If you're totally immersed in a VR environment, you aren't going to be typing, you're going to be acting. Your programs help you to act. What if you used Intuition + Skill, hits capped by Program Rating? I think it represents the intuitive, action-oriented paradigm of a VR reality much better than Logic does.
Yerameyahu
Plus, it's hard to raise Intuition, and no sneaky nanite +3.

I dunno if this addresses any of the problems with Logic-hacking in the first place, though. Interesting anyway. smile.gif
Tyro
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2011, 01:31 PM) *
Plus, it's hard to raise Intuition, and no sneaky nanite +3.

I dunno if this addresses any of the problems with Logic-hacking in the first place, though. Interesting anyway. smile.gif

Also, it's a lot easier to roleplay 6 intuition than it is to roleplay 9 Logic *headdesk*
Faraday
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Also, it's a lot easier to roleplay 6 intuition than it is to roleplay 9 Logic *headdesk*

7-9 logic is usually like RPing 6, but you're better at scholarly pursuits. Artificial brain matter is not an integral part of the personality.
Tyro
QUOTE (Faraday @ Mar 29 2011, 01:49 PM) *
7-9 logic is usually like RPing 6, but you're better at scholarly pursuits. Artificial brain matter is not an integral part of the personality.

It can be. I should think it would depend on how long you've been augmented.
Yerameyahu
Lots of scifi movies tell us that your personality shifts drastically. To evil! smile.gif
Tyro
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2011, 01:53 PM) *
Lots of scifi movies tell us that your personality shifts drastically. To evil! smile.gif

They have cookies. And dental!
Faraday
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 01:53 PM) *
They have cookies. And dental!

I'm just here for Godzilla.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 02:53 PM) *
They have cookies. And dental!

Hey, you got to go where the Perks are...
tete
Intuition make a lot more sense for "on the fly" stuff but less sense for proper data analysis.
Epicedion
Intuition really has nothing at all to do with hacking, other than anticipating others' actions (as with Initiative).

Any hacking action you take involves rapidly processing, analyzing, and responding to changes in data. That is entirely within the boundaries of Logic.

Further, having a high Logic does not necessarily mean you do everything logically. All it means is that you are faster and better at following logical processes, like mathematics, circuitry, and computer code.

To put it another way, Intuition covers real-world Perception, as well as being able to sort lies from truth and noticing social cues. Nothing would destroy the image of the socially awkward super-hacker than requiring Intuition as a major component of hacking.
Yerameyahu
It's totally arbitrary to say that Intuition isn't appropriate. smile.gif The whole paradigm of SR4 hacking is that you're *not* using Logic, because humans are too slow. Given that your rules change that, there's no reason to declare someone else's change 'wrong'.

God forbid Shadowrun break a stereotype, right? biggrin.gif I think 'perceptive/instinctual hacker' is a perfectly acceptable alternative, especially given that *Charisma* is used for your social awkwardness.
KarmaInferno
The rules never actually supported it, but they used to describe Decking as more cerebral and Rigging as more instinctual.

They even had fluff reasons why you saw Deckers with datajacks in their temples and Riggers with jacks in the lower back of the head - Decker jacks were more connected to the cerebellum/logic areas, Rigger jacks were connected more to the brainstem/animalistic parts. Of course, the actual game mechanics made no mention of any differences.



-k
Belvidere
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Mar 29 2011, 08:04 PM) *
They even had fluff reasons why you saw Deckers with datajacks in their temples and Riggers with jacks in the lower back of the head - Decker jacks were more connected to the cerebellum/logic areas, Rigger jacks were connected more to the brainstem/animalistic parts. Of course, the actual game mechanics made no mention of any differences.


I had always wondered why that seemed to be the case. Thank you
Tyro
The way I see it, if you're in a full VR environment, you aren't analyzing data - you're reacting to your environment. Your programs interpret your actions and translate them into code.
Ascalaphus
I've thought about that too. I would prefer that you need both.

Intuition is for taking shortcuts and surprising people. Logic is for making sure you leave no gaps in your defenses, and for systematic analysis and disassembling of obstacles.

I'd be inclined to use Intuition as the "to hit" Attribute and Logic as the "block" Attribute.
redwulf25
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2011, 05:31 PM) *
Plus, it's hard to raise Intuition, and no sneaky nanite +3.

I dunno if this addresses any of the problems with Logic-hacking in the first place, though. Interesting anyway. smile.gif


What are the problems with Logic hacking? I'm considering implementing the house-rule myself and would like to know the downside before I do.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 02:28 PM) *
The houserule I normally see used for hacker attributes is Logic + Skill, hits capped by Program Rating. The basic concept is sound; hackers should need more than programs and a nice commlink. However, I don't think Logic is the best choice. It's good for *writing* programs, but the fluff never made sense to me even in SR3 when hackers using Intelligence was RAW. If you're totally immersed in a VR environment, you aren't going to be typing, you're going to be acting. Your programs help you to act. What if you used Intuition + Skill, hits capped by Program Rating? I think it represents the intuitive, action-oriented paradigm of a VR reality much better than Logic does.


So if I read this right you don't use program rating for dice pool calculation. You use Skill + Logic with logic capped at what the applicable program program rating would be?
Tyro
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 03:34 PM) *
So if I read this right you don't use program rating for dice pool calculation. You use Skill + Logic with logic capped at what the applicable program program rating would be?

Hits capped by program rating.

[Edit:] Oops, program rating * 2
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 04:40 PM) *
Hits capped by program rating.


Wow that makes hacking alot harder. And removes any of need for a majority of the comm upgrades that increase dice pool modifiers on matrix actions.
Faraday
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 03:42 PM) *
Wow that makes hacking alot harder.


Probably he means prog*2
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Faraday @ Mar 29 2011, 04:43 PM) *
Probably he means prog*2


I hope I had a hacker that had about 20 dice pool on fast hacks and could get over 6 successes easy. with 7 skill after specialization, 6 exploit with optimization and a few other exploit mods.
Tyro
QUOTE (Faraday @ Mar 29 2011, 03:43 PM) *
Probably he means prog*2

Correct. Sorry, multitasking.
K1ll5w1tch
I like the idea but how would that work for TM's who would loose a lot of their mojo from threading higher rated programs.
Tyro
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 05:08 PM) *
I like the idea but how would that work for TM's who would loose a lot of their mojo from threading higher rated programs.

This would just be for hackers, not technomancers.
Belvidere
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 10:08 PM) *
I like the idea but how would that work for TM's who would loose a lot of their mojo from threading higher rated programs.


It would bring them back to down to "on playing level" terms. Which I'm actually not a fan of. When making a TM, you're pretty much making a dedicated hacker/rigger character. They should be amazing.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 06:09 PM) *
This would just be for hackers, not technomancers.



Ok thanks. Have you used this in a game? and does it work well?
Tyro
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 05:11 PM) *
Ok thanks. Have you used this in a game? and does it work well?

Not yet, but the Logic version is a very common houserule from what I've seen.
Faraday
QUOTE (Tyro @ Mar 29 2011, 05:20 PM) *
Not yet, but the Logic version is a very common houserule from what I've seen.

It's an optional rule, according to RAW. Therefore, it is not a houserule. nyahnyah.gif

Also, I would apply limits to technomancers if they were much less BP/karma intensive. Although that would remove the mystique.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 07:08 PM) *
I like the idea but how would that work for TM's who would loose a lot of their mojo from threading higher rated programs.


For the Record. We use Logic + Skill (Hits capped by program).

For a Hacker to bypass that Cap Limit, they would need to spend their Edge to do so (Just like a Mage bypassing Force Limits). Technomancers can bypass the cap limits by simply threading a CF to a higher level. Solves the afore mentioned problem of the Technomancer not being awesome.

Works out amazingly well.

As for getting those dice pool modifiers for Hacking. Why would they be any less useful? You may run into your caps more often when throwing 18 Dice vs. 12 Dice, but so what. It is a level playing field. The NPC's are playing by the exact same rules, or at least they should be.
Belvidere
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 29 2011, 11:16 PM) *
For the Record. We use Logic + Program (Hits capped by program).


So... can I play a hermetic mage in your game? Because that would make me a pretty epic hacker too... no skill involved? Something seems off there. I think that may be a typo
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Belvidere @ Mar 29 2011, 08:33 PM) *
So... can I play a hermetic mage in your game? Because that would make me a pretty epic hacker too... no skill involved? Something seems off there. I think that may be a typo


Sorry, Yes. Logic + Skill (Capped by Program)...

Happens when you are tired, I guess... will fix it. Thanks biggrin.gif
Epicedion
Technomancers shouldn't necessarily be better at hacking, but they can easily step beyond the boundaries set by skill/programs at greater (temporary) personal cost, where normal hackers are constrained by skill and tech.

In grittier gameplay, hackers are screwed if something ever bricks their fancy commlink, and have to spend tens of thousands of nuyen to bounce back. Technomancers just need to take a few days off.

It mostly evens out in the end.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 29 2011, 07:16 PM) *
For the Record. We use Logic + Skill (Hits capped by program).

For a Hacker to bypass that Cap Limit, they would need to spend their Edge to do so (Just like a Mage bypassing Force Limits). Technomancers can bypass the cap limits by simply threading a CF to a higher level. Solves the afore mentioned problem of the Technomancer not being awesome.

Works out amazingly well.

As for getting those dice pool modifiers for Hacking. Why would they be any less useful? You may run into your caps more often when throwing 18 Dice vs. 12 Dice, but so what. It is a level playing field. The NPC's are playing by the exact same rules, or at least they should be.


I originally thought the cap would be at 6 base program rating. That wouldn't take much to get to. Cost/benifit to add all the extra gizmos to make you programs better and you comm more effective wouldn't be worth the cost. But with it prog*2 on success cap that makes it possibly 12 using none delta grade programs and harder limit to get to.

Epicedion
A cap of program*2 would end up being meaningless in play. Even if you're rolling 20 dice, hitting the a cap of 12 will only happen 1.3% of the time. Hitting even an 8 will only happen about a third of the time.

Down in the "more normal" dice ranges of starting characters, there'd be almost no reason to buy a program rated higher than 3-4.
K1ll5w1tch
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Mar 29 2011, 08:07 PM) *
A cap of program*2 would end up being meaningless in play. Even if you're rolling 20 dice, hitting the a cap of 12 will only happen 1.3% of the time. Hitting even an 8 will only happen about a third of the time.

Down in the "more normal" dice ranges of starting characters, there'd be almost no reason to buy a program rated higher than 3-4.



I don't know about your averages but rolling 12 dice I roll 5 to 6 successes far more then that.

And you'd buy a rating 3 or 4 program for the same reason you don't buy all your equipment at top rating. You can't afford it. Otherwise everyone would have rating 6 fake sins, fake licenses, sequencers, med kits....etc, etc, etc
Yerameyahu
That's a different DP and a different cap. smile.gif

Honestly, there are only a few items you don't buy at max rating, like the Fake SINs you mention. However, I think his point was that, even with a big DP of 20, you'd never *want* to buy the very expensive rating 6 programs.
Epicedion
QUOTE (K1ll5w1tch @ Mar 29 2011, 10:27 PM) *
I don't know about your averages but rolling 12 dice I roll 5 to 6 successes far more then that.

And you'd buy a rating 3 or 4 program for the same reason you don't buy all your equipment at top rating. You can't afford it. Otherwise everyone would have rating 6 fake sins, fake licenses, sequencers, med kits....etc, etc, etc


Assuming the hit cap is program rating x2:

Possibly, and not even that rarely. But you almost never roll 9 successes, which would be the first hit-loss from a rating 4 program. On 12 dice, there's a 0.39% chance of rolling 9 hits or better, so pretty insignificant.

And that's just a Rating 4 program. A Rating 5 program won't be a huge limitation even at 20 dice, since you'll only get 11+ hits 3.76% of the time.

A bleeding edge program at rating 7+ would end up being worthless until you got well over 30 dice, however you could manage that.

It doesn't make the program rating totally irrelevant, but once you hit rating 5, you never really have a strict need to upgrade.

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 29 2011, 10:41 PM) *
That's a different DP and a different cap. smile.gif

Honestly, there are only a few items you don't buy at max rating, like the Fake SINs you mention. However, I think his point was that, even with a big DP of 20, you'd never *want* to buy the very expensive rating 6 programs.


Right. Every point of rating should impact usefulness, or else there's no impetus to upgrade. If you make the benefit vanish at the upper levels, you might as well just erase program ratings and treat them more like spells.
Ascalaphus
You wouldn't need an R6 program in the average case, but in reality you don't always roll average, and it's nice to have "room" for when you roll well. It's fairly likely that now and then you'll get 6 hits on 12 dice for example.
Yerameyahu
Yes, and a measly Rating 3 program has you covered there. Stats don't lie; you'll literally almost never need Rating 6, extremely rarely need Rating 5. smile.gif This is the Rating*2 limit, again.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 30 2011, 06:25 AM) *
Yes, and a measly Rating 3 program has you covered there. Stats don't lie; you'll literally almost never need Rating 6, extremely rarely need Rating 5. smile.gif This is the Rating*2 limit, again.


Which is why we use Program Rating, rather than Rating*2. At that point, there is a benefit for the higher rated programs (especially since they now have explicit rules for ratings above 6), but the Professional rated Joe, who is rolling 8 dice (3+3+Spec) has no real need for the extremely expensive Rating 6 option, when a Rating 3 will serve him just fine.
Yerameyahu
I know, Tymeaus, but they were discussing that particular rule. smile.gif Incidentally (and of course I noted this in the other thread), that rule has the same profile for all Skill/Hit caps, more or less. It's just a problem with programs because you have to buy them.

Between all the threads we've discussed this in, things are getting pretty chaotic, but not everyone was there. Hehe.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 30 2011, 06:37 AM) *
I know, Tymeaus, but they were discussing that particular rule. smile.gif Incidentally (and of course I noted this in the other thread), that rule has the same profile for all Skill/Hit caps, more or less. It's just a problem with programs because you have to buy them.

Between all the threads we've discussed this in, things are getting pretty chaotic, but not everyone was there. Hehe.


I don't know... Gun Bunnies got to buy their guns, Street Sams got to buy their 'ware. Why should Hackers no thave to buy their Programs? What sets a hacker apart from a Script Kiddie is their programs and their attributes. Seems fair to me.

Or did I misunderstand your point? Which is a possiblity, I must admit, as even I am starting to lose track of the various comments in the various threads on this topic. biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
Yup, you did. smile.gif Guns and 'ware (and spells) don't limit your hits. We're talking about hit-cap rules (Rating*2 and Rating*1).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Mar 30 2011, 06:48 AM) *
Yup, you did. smile.gif Guns and 'ware (and spells) don't limit your hits. We're talking about hit-cap rules (Rating*2 and Rating*1).


Figures... Spells DO limit your hits (well Force does anyways)... smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Exactly. And spells no longer have their own Force, you choose Force.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 30 2011, 10:12 AM) *
Figures... Spells DO limit your hits (well Force does anyways)... smile.gif


Admittedly, that's a pretty strange mechanic to throw into the system just for Magic. I think what they were getting at was an actual penalty to undercasting spells without going so far as to making some other rule like:

Dice Pool = Spellcasting + Force (up to a maximum of the caster's Magic attribute)

Basically, no extra dice for overcasting, penalty dice for undercasting. Instead, they just limit hits. Weird.
K1ll5w1tch
with program*1 then it still comes down to whats the difference between the elite experienced hacker and a trust fund script kiddie with lot of money in a tricked out comm, they'll both end at the same point maxing out their hits. All you're doing is changing skill+program for skill+logic all you'll get over the script kiddie is maybe 2 or 3 extra dice for a better logic big deal, you might get 1 extra success outta that ever now and then average wise. At least with program*2 you can get a few extra successes over a wannabe hacker with tons of cash, and makes having the lower level programs more viable. With a limit on 6 successes it just become a race to rating 6 program so I can start maxing out my rolls instead of loosing successes to this crap program.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (redwulf25 @ Mar 29 2011, 07:33 PM) *
What are the problems with Logic hacking? I'm considering implementing the house-rule myself and would like to know the downside before I do.



Interactions with some programs like stealth, threading for technomancers, and various other issues that when looked at require more fiddling with the rules than just that change. At least that was my experience. YMMV.
Ascalaphus
I've been thinking about dispensing with programs altogether. I'm not sure the current way they're handled is really so fun-inspiring that it needs to be twisted and tortured until it "works".
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