A new take on hacker attributes, Intuition instead of Logic Options

[StealthSigma]

For computers, that's Logic. Computers don't give a damn about what "feels right." Computers work under an incredibly strict set of rules, and the only way to be good at using them (coding for them, hacking them, etc) is to be able to quickly and correctly process those rules and respond with actions that exploit those rules to your own benefit.

You just described Intuition, not Logic. Intuition's value is the ability to short-circuit the need to go through rigorous logical exercises to come to the correct conclusion. There is a reason why many of the most successful people in various fields have been highly intuitive. I'll state again, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, and George S. Patton Jr. are all either admitted to having a good intuition or known to be able to inexplicably grasp situations. Science, military strategy, these would be the sorts of things people would assume to be highly rational decision making or conclusions. Yet more often than not gut-checks are more appropriate.

Intuition relies on events. Logic relies on theories.

Logic requires time. Intuition is instantaneous.

Intuition can make predictions. Logic cannot.

The reason that human minds are more powerful than most computers is due to intuition and not logic. Do you realize the difficulty of making robots? How many bipedal robots exist that can walk? How far away do you think we are from a robot that can hit a 90+mph fastball into the outfield?

I'm going to conclude with a quote from Einstein.

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

[Yerameyahu]

I think AR and VR are still very similar, but sure. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tete]

That is intuition. However, it's neither the optimal nor preferred method for fixing problems on your computer.

Right, Hacking on the Fly isn't optimal or preferred either... I'd rather have nmap report back to me what is on every IP in a scope but knowing most people put there servers on one end or the other I can focus on 24 IPs rather than 254. (if we are using IP4, IP6 I would save even more time)

[Epicedion]

You just described Intuition, not Logic. Intuition's value is the ability to short-circuit the need to go through rigorous logical exercises to come to the correct conclusion. There is a reason why many of the most successful people in various fields have been highly intuitive. I'll state again, Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, and George S. Patton Jr. are all either admitted to having a good intuition or known to be able to inexplicably grasp situations. Science, military strategy, these would be the sorts of things people would assume to be highly rational decision making or conclusions. Yet more often than not gut-checks are more appropriate.

Intuition relies on events. Logic relies on theories.

Logic requires time. Intuition is instantaneous.

Intuition can make predictions. Logic cannot.

The reason that human minds are more powerful than most computers is due to intuition and not logic. Do you realize the difficulty of making robots? How many bipedal robots exist that can walk? How far away do you think we are from a robot that can hit a 90+mph fastball into the outfield?

I'm going to conclude with a quote from Einstein.

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

And that's right back down the road of equivocating Intuition the stat with intuition the bypassing of all reasoning processes. Intuition the stat helps you notice shiny objects in the grass in rainstorms and tells you if the other guy is lying to you.

If you use Intuition for everything you could possibly be intuitive about, you'd have to make it a part of every skill check.

[StealthSigma]

And that's right back down the road of equivocating Intuition the stat with intuition the bypassing of all reasoning processes. Intuition the stat helps you notice shiny objects in the grass in rainstorms and tells you if the other guy is lying to you.

If you use Intuition for everything you could possibly be intuitive about, you'd have to make it a part of every skill check.

And that goes back back down to the descriptions of Intuition the stat and Logic the stat, where intuition is defined as the ability to take in and process large amounts of data.

The rules are completely right in divorcing Logic and Intuition stats from hacking because both are equally applicable (frankly with Intuition being more applicable in the moment with Logic being long term). The ugly truth of the matter is that when you're hacking in a situation where each action your taking is fractions of a second, it's just rather implausible that a human, is able to keep up with it if he's relying on logic. I question whether even linking skill into hacking actions (at the speeds which they are occurring) is even plausible. The human mind is just simply not built use Logic to arrive quickly at solutions. We lack the ability to digest input in a logical manner in order to perform those tasks in the time you're suggesting.

But the programs just provide results that you're acting on you say? You're still making a gut decision on what to do based on those results. Logical analysis is not something you can do in short order. Besides, someone already used logic to build the program.

A logical hacker should be, quite simply, unable to deal with the quickly unfolding events that can and often do happen during a run unless they have the intuition to back it up. The one caveat to a logical hacker is that AIs are the only hackers that would be logic based since their "brains" are wired, no pun intended, to operate that way (i'm not going to get into anything other than the basic metatypes and AIs in that regard).

[Epicedion]

And that goes back back down to the descriptions of Intuition the stat and Logic the stat, where intuition is defined as the ability to take in and process large amounts of data.

Actually, Intuition is defined as "mental alertness." Mental alertness is defined as:

the ability to take in and process information, to read a crowd, to assess a situation for danger or opportunity.

You could stretch that to "process large amounts of data" if you really wanted, but the meaning of the two stats is very clear.

Intuition is for perception and gut feelings. Logic is for complex reasoning and higher-order thinking.

Take a look at the Astral rules if you really want to get a good idea of what each mental stat means:

Logic ~ Agility
Intuition ~ Reaction
Willpower ~ Body
Charisma ~ Strength

The way you want to describe Intuition is as an analogue for Agility.

Edit:

I forgot to address this:

The ugly truth of the matter is that when you're hacking in a situation where each action your taking is fractions of a second, it's just rather implausible that a human, is able to keep up with it if he's relying on logic.

That's not a problem with Logic, it's a problem with AR hacking. Decking, the proto-concept of hacking in Shadowrun 4, was based on the premise that meatbody speeds were no longer sufficient to keep up with data transfer, and that the solution was to plug your brain into the computer so that everything could operate at full processing speeds.

It's not supposed to be a problem of the brain being too slow to keep up. It's supposed to be a problem of the computer->screen->eye->brain->PROCESS->arms->hands->fingers->keyboard->computer chain being too inefficient to keep up.

[Yerameyahu]

Intuition the stat helps you notice shiny objects in the grass in rainstorms and tells you if the other guy is lying to you.

I've already addressed this. It's simply false, as presented; at best, grossly misleading and intentionally ignoring aspects of the rules that don't agree with the point.

The fluff says it *is* the brain that can't keep up, not the body. Again, Logic-hacking proponents are specifically changing this; there's no reason to dump on Tyro's suggesting when you're literally already changing the rules to suit *your* side. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I dunno about other people, but I'm *not* saying that Logic-hacking is stupid or wrong. Intuition-hacking *does* make just as much sense, though, by crunch and fluff. You don't have to attack it just because you support an alternative. Personally, I prefer program-hacking, so I don't prefer either of these. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Epicedion]

I've already addressed this. It's simply false, as presented; at best, grossly misleading and intentionally ignoring aspects of the rules that don't agree with the point.

I'm examining the game's Intuition + Skill combinations. All of them, at least as many as I have access to.

Intuition active skills are: Artisan, Disguise, Navigation, Perception, Shadowing, and Tracking.

Intuition is also used for Intuition + Con when defending against Charisma + Con. Intuition is combined with Charisma to perform Judge Intentions tests. You also use Intuition to get your Astral Reaction and Technomancer Response ratings.

Logic active skills are: Aeronautics Mechanic, Armorer, Automotive Mechanic, Computer, Cybertechnology, Cybercombat, Data Search, Demolitions, Electronic Warfare, First Aid, Industrial Mechanic, (Hacking), Hardware, Medicine, Nautical Mechanic, and Software.

Logic is combined with Willpower to perform Memory tests. You also use Logic to get your Astral Agility and Technomancer System ratings.

All of these things lead me to the conclusion that Hacking should be combined with Logic, as the game designers decided when they made Hacking a Logic-linked skill. The further argument is whether or not you should actually use Logic with Hacking, which is only supported by optional rules.

The notion that Intuition should be used for Hacking is somewhat interesting, though thoroughly unsupported in the manner in which it has been suggested. Otherwise you would be rolling Intuition tests to avoid bullets, since bullets move too fast for the brain to keep up with, making Reaction useless to dodge them.

The fluff says it *is* the brain that can't keep up, not the body. Again, Logic-hacking proponents are specifically changing this; there's no reason to dump on Tyro's suggesting when you're literally already changing the rules to suit *your* side.

You'd have to point out where in the fluff that it says that. Game-wise, the brain can keep up, since otherwise only gear and programs would matter, and Hacking skill wouldn't ever enter into it. I'm reminded of a story I read about space combat being too complex and the speeds being too high for humans to actually influence, so ships would execute all combat maneuvers and weapon firing based on automatic programs, leaving the human crew sitting there hoping not to die.

And I'm not dumping on his suggestion. I'm arguing against his position. Someone Is Wrong on the Internet, and all.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree that looking at the Intuition skills implies one thing, but the description of Intuition I quoted very clearly says something else (or something more). Besides, let's look at those Logic skills: with the incredible outlier of Cybercombat, and some applications of Electronic Warfare, they're all slow, methodical, memory-based, reasoning-based.

I still don't agree with your attempt to cast the Intuition argument as a foolish misunderstanding of 'intuition' vs. 'Intuition'. I think that's unfair. Reaction is described as body reflexes, Agility is described as body skill (-ish), and Intuition is described as mental speed and processing. That doesn't seem like a fallacious argument, and no one's actually made the argument that everything is Intuition cuz it's fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In the Matrix, you leave your meat body behind and surf the wireless world with your mind, your intellect, and the programs you carry. Your attributes take a back seat to the programs (or complex forms) you run. Even Mental attributes like Logic are feeble before a three-million-to- one-or-better speed advantage and the need to compute thousands of operations with every action taken. Ultimately your mind is simply commanding your software and hardware to do things. You’re only as good as the programs and systems you use.

Now, there's room to argue that this *oughtn't* be the canon fluff, and that's exactly the argument that Logic-hacking proponents make.

[Epicedion]

Back to an earlier discussion in this thread, I had a thought that if you're going to do Logic + Hacking, with program rating capping hits (either directly or *2), you might consider splitting the difference:

Either cap hits at rating + 2, or something like rating x1.5 (round down).

The rating + 2 method would cap hits as:

Rating:cap
1:3
2:4
3:5
4:6
5:7
6:8
And then so on in that fashion for 7 and higher.

Which would be reasonable limitations. A very good starting hacker with (augmented) Logic 6, Hacking 5, and maybe some other bonuses which got him up to 12 dice or so probably wouldn't need a rating 5 program, but it wouldn't be a statistically insignificant upgrade. A rating 6 program would be mostly unnecessary. By the time you got up to 20 dice, however, a rating 10 program wouldn't be a statistically insignificant upgrade, but a rating 6 program would only serve as a limitation about 20% of the time.

Going by the rating x1.5 (round down) method:

Rating: cap
1: 1
2: 3
3: 4
4: 6
5: 7
6: 9
7: 10
8: 12
9: 13
And hopefully you can spot the trend from there.

This means that the 12-dice hacker would see about the same benefits to upgrading from rating 3, 4, or 5 programs as with the first method above (with 3 and below seeing much reduced effectiveness and 6 having a little extra 'oomph'). However this method would reduce the need to upgrade beyond rating 7-9 for the 20-dice hacker, keeping bleeding-edge program ratings from having to be 10+ to be effective.

[Yerameyahu]

Or even Program Rating + 1. It does also depend on what range of ratings you plan for your game. Some games don't really have 7+ (insane military grades), while others are crazy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[StealthSigma]

The notion that Intuition should be used for Hacking is somewhat interesting, though thoroughly unsupported in the manner in which it has been suggested. Otherwise you would be rolling Intuition tests to avoid bullets, since bullets move too fast for the brain to keep up with, making Reaction useless to dodge them.

You wouldn't use intuition to dodge bullets because reaction is slower than intuition because you have that brain->body transmission that must occur first. But if I want to be precise, you would have to roll intuition to see if you're afforded the chance to dodge, which would be reaction to see if you can successfully dodge. Of course, the book mostly indicate that you dodge bullets not by dodging the bullet itself but moving in erratic and unpredictable movements that make it harder for the shooter to hit you.

Intuition is the stat used when making checks to learn new skills or improve existing ones (Intuition + Current Skill Rating, Threshold New Skill Rating x 2, Interval 1 week [if memory serves correctly]). Intuition AND logic are both used in hacking albeit indirectly since hacking is skill which is improved via Intuition and programs are improved via Logic. Thus Intuition does play a part in EVERY check that involves a skill as one can infer that the usage and application of the skill is intuitive and you are leveraging another attribute to use that skill more effectively.

You'd have to point out where in the fluff that it says that. Game-wise, the brain can keep up, since otherwise only gear and programs would matter, and Hacking skill wouldn't ever enter into it. I'm reminded of a story I read about space combat being too complex and the speeds being too high for humans to actually influence, so ships would execute all combat maneuvers and weapon firing based on automatic programs, leaving the human crew sitting there hoping not to die.

It's scientific fact. Transistors work about a million times faster than neurons and that's assuming that they're not using quantum computing in Shadowrun. All you're doing is removing the physical impediments of your brain telling your body what to do. The computer->screen->eye->brain portion won't see much of an improvement in speed over a direct neural interface. You're removing the screen and eye so you have computer->brain which will function about as fast as computer->screen which is slower than screen->eye. It's the brain->body->input device portion that you're eliminating. You're reducing input times much akin to how you can work much faster in a command line environment over a GUI in modern times.

[StealthSigma]

Double post

[Epicedion]

I agree that looking at the Intuition skills implies one thing, but the description of Intuition I quoted very clearly says something else (or something more). Besides, let's look at those Logic skills: with the incredible outlier of Cybercombat, and some applications of Electronic Warfare, they're all slow, methodical, memory-based, reasoning-based.

So one line in the description should hold more weight than the following 300 pages of rules systems? I disagree.

If you look at those Intuition skills, they have nothing to do with anything technical and everything to do with "feeling" a situation. Even Navigation isn't defined as a technical skill (plotting courses with maps), but rather as an "I guess I should go this way" skill.

This discussion is entirely the fault of the designers who decided that splitting Intelligence into Logic/Intuition would be fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I still don't agree with your attempt to cast the Intuition argument as a foolish misunderstanding of 'intuition' vs. 'Intuition'. I think that's unfair. Reaction is described as body reflexes, Agility is described as body skill (-ish), and Intuition is described as mental speed and processing. That doesn't seem like a fallacious argument, and no one's actually made the argument that everything is Intuition cuz it's fast. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not foolishness, rather equivocation.

As for "Intuition = mental speed and the ability to process lots of data," the lack of Logic is likewise defined as:

A Logic-lacking character might get overwhelmed when confronted with a lot of details...

So, by those descriptions, a high-Intuition but low-Logic character would both excel and suck at processing a lot of details.

Now, there's room to argue that this *oughtn't* be the canon fluff, and that's exactly the argument that Logic-hacking proponents make.

What's the page reference for that? I can't find it.

[Critias]

I think Logic is a better fit, not only thematically (from descriptors of the attributes themselves) but from a game balance point of view. Intuition is already used for several important day-to-day tests that a Shadowrunner might make at any time (Perception and Initiative being two of the most important). Logic would be even further relegated to the realm of "outright dump stat" in a game that house ruled Hacking to work this way.

If that's you're intent, fine, but I think Logic and Strength are a little underpowered already; further tweaking things (even as house rules) to remove their relevancy feels like a step in the wrong direction, to me.

[Yerameyahu]

SR4A p226.

It's sounds like you're saying that both Logic and Intuition, judged by their skills, are wrong for Hacking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Which is my pet (the RAW) position, heh. Anyway, I'm just playing your game. You attacked Int-hacking on the basis of the description, so I compared Int/Log descriptions. You attacked it on the basis of the linked skills, so I compared the linked skills (in which case, they're both wrong). If you think Matrix hacking is like Automotive Mechanic, I have to disagree.

I do agree with that, Critias. I'm just talking about these 'thematic' lines of attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

You wouldn't use intuition to dodge bullets because reaction is slower than intuition because you have that brain->body transmission that must occur first. But if I want to be precise, you would have to roll intuition to see if you're afforded the chance to dodge, which would be reaction to see if you can successfully dodge. Of course, the book mostly indicate that you dodge bullets not by dodging the bullet itself but moving in erratic and unpredictable movements that make it harder for the shooter to hit you.

You can't actually "dodge bullets" since bullets of course move too fast for you to spot and move out of the way of intentionally. The best you could do would be to predict where the bullet is going to go, and then try not to be there when it arrives. Or flail a lot to confuse your opponent (putting the Intuition burden on him to predict your movements).

Intuition is the stat used when making checks to learn new skills or improve existing ones (Intuition + Current Skill Rating, Threshold New Skill Rating x 2, Interval 1 week [if memory serves correctly]). Intuition AND logic are both used in hacking albeit indirectly since hacking is skill which is improved via Intuition and programs are improved via Logic. Thus Intuition does play a part in EVERY check that involves a skill as one can infer that the usage and application of the skill is intuitive and you are leveraging another attribute to use that skill more effectively.

Oddly enough, Intuition is the only attribute commonly used in RAW hacking (with Willpower taking a backseat for Black IC defense), and then only in Cybercombat -- to arrive at your Initiative score. My thoughts are that while Intuition is good for that, it's not good for actually using Cybercombat to hit/damage the target. Much in the way that Reaction is used to determine your Initiative in meatbody combat, but Agility is used to actually hit/damage the target.

There could be something said for using Intuition as a factor in avoiding attacks in Cybercombat, again going with the Intuition ~ Reaction parallel, but by RAW that's already taken as Response + Firewall. An interesting house rule there would be to make Response + Intuition be your defense, instead, and a nice way of splitting the difference between Logic and Intuition being used in Hacking.

Besides, Firewall already gets used in resisting damage.

It's scientific fact. Transistors work about a million times faster than neurons and that's assuming that they're not using quantum computing in Shadowrun. All you're doing is removing the physical impediments of your brain telling your body what to do. The computer->screen->eye->brain portion won't see much of an improvement in speed over a direct neural interface. You're removing the screen and eye so you have computer->brain which will function about as fast as computer->screen which is slower than screen->eye. It's the brain->body->input device portion that you're eliminating. You're reducing input times much akin to how you can work much faster in a command line environment over a GUI in modern times.

That's an argument for abandoning both attribute and skill in favor of something like System + Program rating, or abandoning hacking altogether in favor of carefully scripted Agents.

As a game, however, Shadowrun is more focused on the abilities of individuals. Being The Greatest Hacker of All Time is supposed to be a personal goal, and not something that you can simply spend cash on. While it may not be the most realistic interpretation, it's more in line with the neo-noir atmosphere.

[StealthSigma]

It's sounds like you're saying that both Logic and Intuition, judged by their skills, are wrong for Hacking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Which is my pet (the RAW) position, heh. Anyway, I'm just playing your game. You attacked Int-hacking on the basis of the description, so I compared Int/Log descriptions. You attacked it on the basis of the linked skills, so I compared the linked skills (in which case, they're both wrong). If you think Matrix hacking is like Automotive Mechanic, I have to disagree.

I like the following rule. Skill + Program, Hits limited by Intuition x2 OR Logic x2, whichever is lower. Then you can't dump either stat.

[Yerameyahu]

It's almost like Skill+Program is the happy medium between your two positions. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ooh, nice, StealthSigma. That's a pretty high hit-cap, but of course Attribs are expensive.

[Epicedion]

SR4A p226.

It's sounds like you're saying that both Logic and Intuition, judged by their skills, are wrong for Hacking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Which is my pet (the RAW) position, heh. Anyway, I'm just playing your game. You attacked Int-hacking on the basis of the description, so I compared Int/Log descriptions. You attacked it on the basis of the linked skills, so I compared the linked skills (in which case, they're both wrong). If you think Matrix hacking is like Automotive Mechanic, I have to disagree.

I do agree with that, Critias. I'm just talking about these 'thematic' lines of attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's in the same ballpark as Automotive Mechanic, just with different technology.

Remember that Hacking is primarily used in all the methodical actions: breaking in via hacking on the fly or probing the target (think password crackers today, or methodically trying all of the potential exploits like logging in guest accounts) which are both extended tests. Crashing program/OS, which are both extended tests. Disarm data bomb, which while not an extended test is the attempt to disarm a complex program to keep it from activating. Hacking is also used for Spoofing, Editing, and Intercept Traffic. None of these actions sound like Intuitive responses.

Hacking is never used for something that you don't have to actually think about, or for anything that has to be run on pure gut instinct.

Except maybe Full Defense in Cybercombat is +Hacking, which I'm not really clear on.

If we're strictly talking about Cybercombat, that's different. Intuition is already a part of that (and I would seriously consider that house rule making Intuition a part of Defense, in place of Firewall).

Maybe make it Response + Intuition (+Firewall for Full Defense). Hmm..

[Tyro]

I like the following rule. Skill + Program, Hits limited by Intuition x2 OR Logic x2, whichever is lower. Then you can't dump either stat.

That might be workable. I'll have to think about this.

[Epicedion]

I still hate hit caps. It feels like the game system taunting you. "Ha ha, you rolled too well, suck it!"

[Yerameyahu]

I agree, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why this whole debate is fun and difficult.

I don't think 'Extended Test' is a fair litmus, though. Auto Mechanic has intervals of hours, while Hacking actions are fractions of seconds. Even then, I don't want to focus too much on the pure question of speed. Data Search (just for example) is more reasonably Logic, whether it's 1 minute or 1 turn.

[StealthSigma]

I agree, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why this whole debate is fun and difficult.

I don't think 'Extended Test' is a fair litmus, though. Auto Mechanic has intervals of hours, while Hacking actions are fractions of seconds. Even then, I don't want to focus too much on the pure question of speed. Data Search (just for example) is more reasonably Logic, whether it's 1 minute or 1 turn.

I'd argue that spoofing is appropriately an Intuition linked action. Look at it's effective meatspace counterpart. Disguise.

[Epicedion]

I agree, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's why this whole debate is fun and difficult.

I don't think 'Extended Test' is a fair litmus, though. Auto Mechanic has intervals of hours, while Hacking actions are fractions of seconds. Even then, I don't want to focus too much on the pure question of speed. Data Search (just for example) is more reasonably Logic, whether it's 1 minute or 1 turn.

Sure. Solving a math equation would also be an "extended action" that some people could solve in fractions of a second. Still logic.

My position is that hacking actions are always inflicted on the system, and never in response to anything the system does. Just because you can do them very quickly doesn't mean they're not calculated and planned. Probing the Target takes hours or days. Hacking on the Fly can take 3, 6, 9, 12 or more seconds, depending on how bad/slow the hacker is or how tough the system is to crack. In fact, there's no difference between methodically Hacking on the Fly with one test every 3 seconds or cracked-out speed-hacking five tests every 3 seconds except for the time it takes to finish the job -- the system only gets to hit back at you per action, not per round. Cracked-out speed-hacker could spend 1 pass Hacking on the Fly and the other 4 reading War and Peace -- or simultaneously hacking 4 other nodes on the fly. That's just because he's fast, it has nothing to do with his Intuition.

Extended Test kind of is a fair litmus, because the argument for Hacking being Intuition-based up to this point has been that these things happen "too fast to process." Nothing in the rules says you can't take your sweet time doing them, and nothing in the rules says anything about super-fast actions requiring Intuition.