Firearms that make sense..., Internal consistency and a little more realism Options

[kzt]

Well, if you are talking about Hunting, I prefer an old-style Gatling Gun in 45-70 Caliber. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wimp. Use a REAL gun. A 12 pound Mountain Howitzer loaded with canister. It's one of the most insane gun stories I've ever read.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wimp. Use a REAL gun. A 12 pound Mountain Howitzer loaded with canister. It's one of the most insane gun stores I've ever read.

Awesome...

[CanRay]

"I fully support Gun Control. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Civilians have a use for Artillery."

Actually, just said this line at my local FLGS/Army Surplus Store to the Ex-Military Owner (Who looked like I sprouted a second head there for a moment) when I started examining the 81mm Mortar Shell cases that he was selling. (Just the cases, no mortars or shells were available. I asked.). He smiled at the second part and agreed.

That said, there is a friend of the family that scares off the US Military with his cannon, so I might be wrong in that theory.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"I fully support Gun Control. Frankly, I find it hard to believe that Civilians have a use for Artillery."

Actually, just said this line at my local FLGS/Army Surplus Store to the Ex-Military Owner (Who looked like I sprouted a second head there for a moment) when I started examining the 81mm Mortar Shell cases that he was selling. (Just the cases, no mortars or shells were available. I asked.). He smiled at the second part and agreed.

That said, there is a friend of the family that scares off the US Military with his cannon, so I might be wrong in that theory.

Yep, I got to say, I heard several high ranking officers in the Corps discussing that very dilemma. One of these days they are going to get that lunatic, and then Canada will not be safe.

[Wounded Ronin]

Ahhh... Personally. Unfortunately, Personally, I cannot afford the firearms that I would truly like to have. Unfortunately, Family, Food and a Place to Live take precedence.

The cost of the gun is usually nothing. It's the cost of ammo that's the problem, if you want to develop FPS-hero like levels of skill, which are absolutely necessary in this day and age.

You know how we always like to talk about friendly neighborhood game shops? You need a friendly neighborhood gun shop. I was able to get a Kimber TLE2 custom, used, for only $600 or so one time at one.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The cost of the gun is usually nothing. It's the cost of ammo that's the problem, if you want to develop FPS-hero like levels of skill, which are absolutely necessary in this day and age.

You know how we always like to talk about friendly neighborhood game shops? You need a friendly neighborhood gun shop. I was able to get a Kimber TLE2 custom, used, for only $600 or so one time at one.

Nice...

[Wounded Ronin]

As with reality, guns tend to be really freaking similar. What's the difference between a Glock 17 and a Beretta 92FS?

Rage! The big differences are weight, reliability, recoil characteristics, trigger pull, and which one feels more comfortable in your hand.

What's the difference between a USP .45 ACP Compact Tactical and a WW2 vintage Colt M1911?

RAAAGGEEEEEE! Firstly, reliability. Secondly, durability. The vintage 1911 is going to be made with a softer steel and won't last for as many hundreds of thousands as rounds as the USP before the slide starts to crack. A true vintage 1911 will also be made with loose tolerances and will probably be less accurate than the USP, and more prone to failures especially when using hollow point or other speciality ammunition.

Thirdly, especially if we're talking about modern 1911s, a slender, comfortable grip, and a crisp trigger pull, and a safety you can ride. Why is it that all the top USPSA competitors shoot either glock or 1911 variants, and none of them shoot USP? Because the ones that they do use are better in all the small, right ways to make the difference between a champion and second place. I cannot believe you are even making a comparison between a USP and a 1911. They're completely different beasts which are used today by people with completely different things that they want from their weapons.

Have you ever tried to ride the decocker on a USP? As a 1911 shooter I've done that in the past. The result is causing a malfunction of the USP. The USP has got a characteristic Euro-wuss mushy trigger pull, and a huge part of the reason someone would use a 1911 instead is because they want a nice crisp trigger pull.

I really cannot believe you said they're similar.

Same goes for rifles: AK-47s and M-16s have their own distinctiveness and what could arguably lead to a well-reasoned argument on the pros and cons for either, but by and large the differences evaporate after two bullets go into the target.

RRRAAAAAGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEE! There's huge differences between the weapons! Reliability, and accuracy for the 400 yard headshot. Trauma and wounding, and penetration of solid objects, are all going to be different based on the different cartridges used by the respective rifles.

The M-16s nowadays come with nice accessories, but with an old AK 47 you're going to have to duct tape them on. This would really affect how easy it is to use the weapon and longer and longer ranges if you start adding the expensive optics.

The AK is a lot shorter than a full length M16 and is probably easier to use indoors. I would feel a lot more comfortable using my AK as a melee weapon than I would my AR.

With my AR I baby it a little bit. With the AK I use it cheerfully content in the knowledge that since it's not that accurate in the first place I don't need to stress as much when running around with it. I have a bayonet for the AK but not for the AR.

But the functional difference between getting shot with an M-16 or an AK-47 (or two different pistols) is, considering the amount of variability inherent in the SR system, going to be pretty small. Large gaps (light->heavy pistol, SMG->assault rifle) are mostly covered already.

See, if you really wanted to do it right, running a crisp high end 1911 would let you shoot just a little earlier than you normally would in the turn, representing superior handling and a crisp trigger pull, but then there'd be a 1% chance every time you pulled the trigger of getting a type 2 or type 3 malfunction.

The USP would have a lower chance of malfunction but that mushy trigger pull would not boost your initiative.

If you were running a Sig 226 and you fired your first double action shot, you'd take a very slight penalty to your initiative to represent the looooonnnngggg trigger pull and the need to adjust your finger position.

[Wounded Ronin]

Christ, it's all already too complicated for me. As much as it's kind of cool to stack recoil compensation, sometimes I wonder if we'd be better off with just stats for Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, etc. But then again, me and my group are civilian as fuck and came to SR from systems like Cortex and BESM.

It's not really complicated once you've had the chance to go out and shoot. Once you've experienced a bunch of different firearms it's not complicated since you remember your experiences instead of having to abstract everything.

Why don't you come and take a vacation in Las Vegas? You'll be able to rent and fire a variety of guns, including handguns, rifles, submachine guns, rifles, automatic rifles, and even .30 caliber machine guns, at the local ranges.

[CanRay]

If I want a 1911... Er, was ever allowed to OWN a 1911, I should say, I'd get a Para-Ordinance myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tyro]

Y'know, I looked into flechette weapons, and from what I read it seems that they should have HIGHER AP and LOWER base damage - needle type rounds tend to go cleanly through an unarmored target, conserving more momentum than traditional bullets, but penetrate a vest better. Am I mistaken in this? Maybe they should be -1 DV, -5 AP (Impact).

[Edit:] Reversed an erroneous plus sign

[Yerameyahu]

You mean -AP, I think. Yup, if you were 'realistic' about it, flechette should pierce soft armor (but, of course, not hard armor). SR doesn't do it that way; instead, it's just techno-whizbang shotguns. *shrug*

[Tyro]

You mean -AP, I think. Yup, if you were 'realistic' about it, flechette should pierce soft armor (but, of course, not hard armor). SR doesn't do it that way; instead, it's just techno-whizbang shotguns. *shrug*

I think the best fix would be to keep shotguns as they are and make flechettes -1DV/-5AP (Impact). Thoughts?

[Yerameyahu]

Too good. That's the same as APDS, except 2R. Nothing wrong with the basic idea, though.

[Epicedion]

Rage! The big differences are weight, reliability, recoil characteristics, trigger pull, and which one feels more comfortable in your hand.

Right off the rails.

None of those things are modeled in the game, as with everything else in your post. Unless you want to model a few dozen more aspects of firearms in the game, there's nowhere to put any of that information.

[Wounded Ronin]

If I want a 1911... Er, was ever allowed to OWN a 1911, I should say, I'd get a Para-Ordinance myself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Can you rent those in Canada? How did you come to realize that you wanted that particular 1911? Were you in the military?

[Wounded Ronin]

Right off the rails.

None of those things are modeled in the game, as with everything else in your post. Unless you want to model a few dozen more aspects of firearms in the game, there's nowhere to put any of that information.

I'd consider getting rid of certain things that are already in the game, such as super-awesome cumulative recoil compensation of headshotting death, and maybe instead implement some of this other stuff in its place. I mean as long as we're talking about messing with the rules in the first place.

[Epicedion]

You mean -AP, I think. Yup, if you were 'realistic' about it, flechette should pierce soft armor (but, of course, not hard armor). SR doesn't do it that way; instead, it's just techno-whizbang shotguns. *shrug*

I think the best fix would be to keep shotguns as they are and make flechettes -1DV/-5AP (Impact). Thoughts?

Regarding these two posts:

Impact armor is already relatively weak compared to Ballistic armor, so the grace of using Impact armor is usually worth a few points of AP on its own. It's only when you move up into high-grade combat armor or heavy modification that Impact armor is higher than the 4-6 range.

On top of that, +2 DV is probably worth negative 6-8 points of armor, strictly from a damage standpoint. So against your average target wearing a 6/4 armored vest, +2DV +5AP vs Impact is (conservatively) worth something like 3 gross AP in the shooter's favor (+6 damage mod -5 AP mod +2 Impact benefit, from the shooter's perspective).

More to the point, the 9 DV of the flechette shotgun is going to tie outright with the 4 +5 Impact armor, meaning any net hits gives you physical damage. On 1 net hit (10 DV), that target gets his 9 armor dice +3 (average) body, for 3-4 expected hits, or 6-7P damage. Comparatively, the 7 DV -1AP non-flechette shotgun with 1 net hit is going to do 8 DV against 5 Ballistic +3 Body, for 2-3 net hits, or 5-6P damage.

Against someone in an Armored Jacket (8/6), however, it skews a little differently. With 10 DV from the flechette round, you're looking at Stun damage (against Impact 11) and 14 dice (4ish hits), for an expected 6S. The slug, however, will only do its 8P, but that will breach the modified Ballistic 7, giving you an expected 3-ish hits, or 5P.

Beyond that, flechettes will need a lot of hits to cross into Physical damage.

What this amounts to is what we knew all along: flechettes are preferred against lightly armored or unarmored targets, while other ammo types are preferred against moderate to heavy armored targets, presuming you actually want your target to be physically injured and die. Flechettes still always come out ahead in the DV bonus vs AP penalty fight if all you're considering is raw damage, and don't care if it's S or P. The major downside to flechettes is that they will routinely fail against hardened armor.

[Yerameyahu]

You're right: shotguns are (and should be) be good at causing Stun damage (against armored people). I'd say more 6 than 8, by the way, which is presumably why they made the +AP 5.

Flechette, on the other hand, is supposedly designed to *pierce* soft armor (anything that's not literally solid plates). It's a mistake of terminology that SR uses flechette for shot.

I'd also be fine with the possibility of flechette ammo not having Spread; the Slivergun always sounded to me like it shot little spikes, not clouds of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This aspect is up for grabs, though, because the canon for flechette is a cloud of spikes (IIRC?).

Let's not even mention SnS, except that it's fundamentally superior to Stun-inflicting shotguns in every way.

[Epicedion]

I'd consider getting rid of certain things that are already in the game, such as super-awesome cumulative recoil compensation of headshotting death, and maybe instead implement some of this other stuff in its place. I mean as long as we're talking about messing with the rules in the first place.

Things like accuracy modifiers just don't mean very much compared to other things in the system. When the computer on your gun that predicts where to shoot based on range and target motion only grants you a +2 bonus, what do you think would be a fair bonus for being able to shoot a 4 inch group instead of a 6 inch group at 10 meters?

As a note, personal preference could be indicated by a focusing Specializations down to a single model of firearm (like "Ares Predator") instead of a loose collection (like "Semi-Automatics").

Other factors like durability and reliability would simply add unnecessary rolls and bookkeeping to the game. "Says on your sheet that you've fired 8000 rounds with that gun, time to put in for a replacement barrel!" Or, "You fire a shot. Now roll the weapon's chance to jam." Jams and more serious weapon issues are already designed to pop up on glitches and critical glitches. If you wanted to model an extremely unreliable gun, you could add in a quirk that the weapon needs one less '1' than usual to qualify for a glitch or critical glitch, or that glitches are worse than usual and critical glitches are beyond catastrophic (as with weapons like the Monowhip).

Now I'm usually a big house-ruler and I love designing new ways of doing things, but messing around with the firearms system is playing with fire. At best, you'll probably just manage to make it annoying.

[Epicedion]

You're right: shotguns are (and should be) be good at causing Stun damage (against armored people). I'd say more 6 than 8, by the way, which is presumably why they made the +AP 5.

Flechette, on the other hand, is supposedly designed to *pierce* soft armor (anything that's not literally solid plates). It's a mistake of terminology that SR uses flechette for shot.

I'd also be fine with the possibility of flechette ammo not having Spread; the Slivergun always sounded to me like it shot little spikes, not clouds of them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This aspect is up for grabs, though, because the canon for flechette is a cloud of spikes (IIRC?).

Let's not even mention SnS, except that it's fundamentally superior to Stun-inflicting shotguns in every way.

Flechettes actually do pierce soft armor pretty well -- that +2 DV is nothing to sneeze at. You're at a better damage-to-soak ratio with +2DV +5AP than a flat -1AP. You're actually slightly better off than you would be with no DV modifier and -6AP. What you see, though, is that when you get to moderately-armored and better targets (Impact of 5+ or so), flechettes end up converted to Stun more often. They're still likely to do more raw damage.

[Muspellsheimr]

I'm interested to see the final result of this, as it appears to be a much more detailed version of a revision I was doing (basically, I was going to revise damage & ap values slightly, & change ammunition tracking from by weapon category to by caliber, based on damage & ap).

At the very least, you gave me what I needed to finish my revision - ammunition types (not being a major gun enthusiast myself).

[Tyro]

I would think flechettes would pierce plates better than bullets would - they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area - thus, greater force per area, IIRC the defining trait of armor-piercing ammunition.

Also, as flechettes have negligible recoil (or should, anyway, based on what I've read), I should think they'd have less spread when fired in bursts or full auto, which ALSO improves AP capability.

[Tyro]

Too good. That's the same as APDS, except 2R. Nothing wrong with the basic idea, though.

APDS is DV +0, AP -4. I'm proposing DV -1, AP -5. I would also change flechettes (not shot) to Ballistic resistance, as they're actually going faster than most bullets. Basically a net AP -2 on average, with a greater chance of doing physical damage than normal bullets.

I would think flechettes would pierce plates better than bullets would - they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area - thus, greater force per area, IIRC the defining trait of armor-piercing ammunition.

Also, as flechettes have negligible recoil (or should, anyway, based on what I've read), I should think they'd have less spread when fired in bursts or full auto, which ALSO improves AP capability.

As I mentioned before, fin-stabilized darts (which is essentially what things like the Tiffani Needler fire) tend to go cleanly through unarmored or lightly-armored targets and do less damage than bullets would.

This houserule (DV -1, AP -5) would make flechettes into cheaper, easier to find, but less effective AP ammo, and encourage the use of shotguns for less armored targets - a good thing in my book, as shotguns are rather underpowered in this edition compared to SMGs and assault rifles.

[Edit:] I should have said up front, I propose splitting flechettes into shot (shotguns) and darts (needle guns), superseding the SR4A description of flechette ammunition on page 323.

[Epicedion]

I would think flechettes would pierce plates better than bullets would - they don't deform nearly as much on impact, they have superior velocity, and they hit a much smaller surface area - thus, greater force per area, IIRC the defining trait of armor-piercing ammunition.

Also, as flechettes have negligible recoil (or should, anyway, based on what I've read), I should think they'd be better at hitting the same spot over and over when in BF or FA mode.

It comes down to the same force as a solid shot distributed over a wider area. You can get a little back from shaping the flechettes to maximize their individual force vs individual area, but the overall energy of each flechette will be much lower.

What you're thinking of is more like an APDS round.

[Tyro]

It comes down to the same force as a solid shot distributed over a wider area. You can get a little back from shaping the flechettes to maximize their individual force vs individual area, but the overall energy of each flechette will be much lower.

What you're thinking of is more like an APDS round.

I'm basing my view of flechettes on things like the needler, which sounds more like it fires fin-stabilized darts than a bunch of razor shards. I've looked into RL examples of flechette weapons, and the ones that were actually worth something all used that type of ammunition.

[Edit:] I should have said up front, I propose splitting flechettes into shot (shotguns) and darts (needle guns), superseding the SR4A description of flechette ammunition on page 323.