How much damage can a astral intruder really do?, Really how bad can it get? Options

[Mardegun]

OK, I admit right here and now, that I am just learning the finer details of the magic rules. With that said, how effective can a astral intruder be? Here is a summary if what I know

Good:
1) Astral intruders can pass though any mundane structure. So they can explore the layout of a building
2) They can get the general emotion imprint of areas
3) Summon spirits, which could cause some serious damage in many different ways.
4) Astral intruders can materialize and commutate with people. So espionage could be a problem.
5) Most places have little to no astral security.

Bad:
1) You can't read or interact with anything. So you can't read papers or otherwise actually gain real information. For example if you want info that is store on a computer, you can't get a it. Unless a heart spirit can get the info, but that isn't that reliable and if you are hermetic then what?
2) Really how useful are emotion imprints? Aren't most emotion imprints rather useless, unless something special happens AND the astral reader gets enough ascending successes.
3) Astral barriers are major pains in the ass. Masking is a best solution, but not fool proof.
4) You are easily spotted by astral patrols and dual beings. In most cases the magic security is combine with mundane security, which will sound the alarms.
5) You will die if you can't get to your body in time. What if astral barriers are activated trapping you in astral space?
6) Your meat body is a sitting target.
7) It is very hard if not impossible, to know the astral security before infiltrating.
8) Chances are you have no backup what-so-ever.
9) Spirits can be difficult to deal with. Banishing them will warn their masters
10) There are a number of magic security measures that can be difficult to deal with, magical vines and bacteria just two types of security.

So what did I miss good or bad?

[Backgammon]

You can't conjure somehting while astrally projecting, since conjuring is Exclusive. You have to conjure, then tell them to tag along. This can be a problem for shamans, in terms of domains.

Astral recon can be extremely potent if done right. Also, an Astral mage can provide a whole damn lot of Spell Defence dice.

[Mardegun]

- ahhh, so you can't summon spirits in astral space?
- Oh yeah, I forgot about spell defense, but then the mage can't do much else can they?

So you say astral recon can be useful, but how? Simple layout and number of people? The astral recon can't see mundane objects very well, but I suppose that isn't that important is it? For example, there are 2 large trolls with large weapons guarding X door in that building. If that is the extend of astral recon, then why would most places be worried about astral intruders? Admittedly that is very useful info, but there could be plenty of mundane security that a astral mage would never see.

[Frag-o Delux]

Astral mages are pretty good tailers also, especially if the target has no magic or is completely unaware of you trialing them.

[Lilt]

I don't believe you can defend against a physical spell from the astral.

A +2 on seeing mundane objects isn't all that bad. The +2 TN is no worse than the partial light (a city street at night) or mist (mist/light rain/snow) visibility modifiers.

A mage who has an ally with the sense link power could possibly get the ally to materialise and relay what he sees from the physical, getting around the problem with reading signs/paper from the astral.

Some people have suggested allowing an astral perception spell (allowing anyone to perceive the astral). I'm not saying it's possible, but if that spell existed then so-too could a "physical perception" spell allowing astral mages to see the physical plane normally (and read stuff ETC).

An astral mage with posession could possibly posess a dual-natured critter (such as those alledgedly used as guard animals to protect against astral intrusion), use shapechange/transform to turn him back humanoid, and do whatever he wanted from there. It may even be possible to summon spirits while posessing, but I'm not sure. (dammn, I wanna try doing that sometime)

Hmm. There are probably more. Astral magicians can really bend your day over a barrel and rodger it, no KY, no cuddles.

[Darkest Angel]

To be honest, I've never found projection to be really that useful, but then the real benefits come after initiation with access to the metaplanes. I find 99% of the things you can do projecting you can do while perceiving then 0.9% of the rest you can do with technology or sorcery (clairvoyance), such as tracking people, finding building layouts. But then there's always that 0.1%, which actually saved one of my characters lives once.

Loosing the essence and consequent magic rating makes it pretty useless as an on-the-spot ability in the middle of a run, and the complete lack of armour in astral space makes life very dangerous.

[Eyeless Blond]

Really the most important thing a mage can do with astral projection--before all that metaplane stuff and initiation--is do a sort of "astral overwatch," much like the decker can do from inside a building's security system. For details I suggest you look here, at the Infiltration Challenge thread. So far the guy on astral recon has been invaluable as a scout, and has a great stealth rating even when the majority of the guards are dual-natured.

[Zazen]

On spell defense, the astral mage could only protect subjects who were astrally present; they must share a plane for spell defense to work. It should, however, work for all spells. He could also use astral barrier, spell wall, etc. to provide this service indirectly.

But Lilt may be right in "choose desired plane" games, where special rules have to be made up to accomodate. It's weird how that keeps coming up.

[Sphynx]

Lilt: What mean you about the +2 to see while projecting? There's no such rules that I'm aware of (The +2 is to do things with your physical body while Perceiving, nothing with Projection). And M's right, you can't read anything from the Astral Plane, no matter if you Manifest or not.

I do like the idea, however, of a "Physical Perception" spell.

Darkest: An Astral Armour spell is common among mages who Project, along with ShatterShield, SpiritBlast, and Spirit Bolt. And the Astral Armour doesn't even glow, it's one of those "Quicken" me kinda spells. ;)

Sphynx

[Zazen]

[Darkest Angel]

I've found I can provide perfectly good astral overwatch while maintaining perception, and a spirit. Also provides an extra pair of feet on the ground and I can lay down more pepper too when things stop going right. It also gives you the option of calling up Watchers on a Whim, which you can't do while projecting.

Also, while projecting your taking physical drain from those spell walls you're casting, as well as their area of effect being diminished from the moment you project. Also, a masked physically present Mage can walk through a ward with equal ease to a projecting mage.

As for Conjuring and Possessing, Conjuring is an exclusive act, you can't do it while possessing which is also a magical act. Nor can you sustain spells without a sustaining focus while conjuring.

[Darkest Angel]

Sphynx, I am aware of those spells - but I just don't like, nor find the need to, project enough to justify taking them. I've found so little use for projecting, other than to the metaplanes, that of all the years I've been playing Mages, I've only seriously projected twice, one of those was because I was captured and wearing a mage mask and it was the only way to get the rest of the group to my location.

[Bearclaw]

A hermetic who's already conjured his elementals can call them up though, can't he?

[Jpwoo]

you guys are right, scouting a building halfway across the world with no prepartaion and little risk isn't a useful ability at all. You know players never ever astrally scout anything and hardly ever project. they should really just eliminate it from the game as it is entirely useless.

[Sphynx]

Thanks for pointing that out Zazen, though I think it's obvious those rules are only for searching, not observing, but to each their own.

DA: I agree for the most part, unless you build a character around being a projector, it's not as great. One of our guys locally has built his entire character around spirits/projection, and all his spells are to help in the Astral (including foci and quickens to do that better). I'm scared to go on any run without him really, he's the biggest astral bad-ass ever, and as a Dual Natured dwarf, I appreciate that backup support, in addition to his Scouting potential.

[Darkest Angel]

Bearclaw: You certainly can, as can a Shaman who conjured a Hearth Spirit at home and put it on Standby.

My point really though, is that projecting requires a lot of preparation to do it right, but recon and combat requires a lot of seat of the pants versatility, something that for a quick recon sweep does not make for an effecient service. I'd rather go down the Clairvoyance route, you get normal vision, you get a pretty good idea of personel numbers (although perhaps not perfect), and you don't actually have to risk your life to do it. Obviously projection gives you the added sense of hearing what's going on, but designing a Telepresence spell isn't too hard.

[Zazen]

[Bearclaw]

What's the range on Clairvoyance?

My point is, a hermetic always has elementals on standby. The usefulness of a scout who can move at near infinite speeds, pass through walls, and suddenly drop 3 pissed off fire elementals behind the oppositions back can not be over estimated.

[Darkest Angel]

Touch :) You cast it on yourself, and see what you can see, so there isn't really a range on it. However, you can't actually effect anything through it unless you're just using it to zoom in on something. A very potent spell, but it is resisted so you might be able to see round the corner, but you can't be certain there's no one there.

[Bearclaw]

No, there's a range on how far clairvoyance can see. Just like any other detection spell. I see why you think that astral projection isn't as cool though. If you had an unlimited range clairvoyance, astral projection wouldn't be nearly as cool.

[Lilt]

When I say Physical Spell, I mean a spell cast on the physical plane. It is true that if the character is dual-natured (percieving/dual being) then they can be protected too. It is a good point that an astral barrier spell could increase opposing TNs... I didn't consider that.

As for conjuring whilst posessing, I was also wondering (but not entierly sure) wether or not it counts as a magical activity. There is also precidence for using conjuring whilst posessing in the the novels:

[ Spoiler ]

Lethe banishes a blood spirit whilst posessing Burnout in Clockwork Asylum (book 2) of the Dragon Heart Trillogy

But that's somewhat far from canon as far as normal characters are concerned.

My comment about the +2 TN is still relatively accurate. I still consider +2 TN to seeing mundane objects to be synonymous to a +2 TN for looking for mundane objects perception modifier. In my games it would still be roughly as hard for a mage to notice a drone trundling along from the astral as it would be for a normal human to see one in the mist or partial light. Sphynx: I'm a bit confused by your distinction between observing and searching. How would you rule the above drone-noticing situation?

The problem with clairvoyance is that people can resist it. If a sec-guard resists your clairvoyance spell then you will not see them which could cause problems.

[Frag-o Delux]

Sorry DA but Claivoyance is a detection spell. You touch yourself and now you can use it upto force x magic meters. So say you have a a force 6 Clairvoyance and you are magic rating 6, congradulations your power is now 36 meters. Meaning to see the good stuff in a building will still need to get very close to the danger zone.


MitS p. 140 Detection Spells. all detection spells.

[Bearclaw]

Which means that if you want to see the stuff past the 9th floor, you have to be INSIDE the building.

[Frag-o Delux]

No it means if you want to use that power it is good up to 36 meters. If you are stnding at the fence of the corp HQ and the building is 37 meters away you get to see the lawn in very good detail.

[Bearclaw]

You are arguing without paying attention to what I said.
4 meters per floor. 9 floors = 36 meters. If you want to see anything on the 10th floor, you must actually be inside the building. Just because the map is two dimensional doesn't mean the building is.