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Mardegun
OK, I admit right here and now, that I am just learning the finer details of the magic rules. With that said, how effective can a astral intruder be? Here is a summary if what I know

Good:
1) Astral intruders can pass though any mundane structure. So they can explore the layout of a building
2) They can get the general emotion imprint of areas
3) Summon spirits, which could cause some serious damage in many different ways.
4) Astral intruders can materialize and commutate with people. So espionage could be a problem.
5) Most places have little to no astral security.

Bad:
1) You can't read or interact with anything. So you can't read papers or otherwise actually gain real information. For example if you want info that is store on a computer, you can't get a it. Unless a heart spirit can get the info, but that isn't that reliable and if you are hermetic then what?
2) Really how useful are emotion imprints? Aren't most emotion imprints rather useless, unless something special happens AND the astral reader gets enough ascending successes.
3) Astral barriers are major pains in the ass. Masking is a best solution, but not fool proof.
4) You are easily spotted by astral patrols and dual beings. In most cases the magic security is combine with mundane security, which will sound the alarms.
5) You will die if you can't get to your body in time. What if astral barriers are activated trapping you in astral space?
6) Your meat body is a sitting target.
7) It is very hard if not impossible, to know the astral security before infiltrating.
cool.gif Chances are you have no backup what-so-ever.
9) Spirits can be difficult to deal with. Banishing them will warn their masters
10) There are a number of magic security measures that can be difficult to deal with, magical vines and bacteria just two types of security.

So what did I miss good or bad?
Backgammon
You can't conjure somehting while astrally projecting, since conjuring is Exclusive. You have to conjure, then tell them to tag along. This can be a problem for shamans, in terms of domains.

Astral recon can be extremely potent if done right. Also, an Astral mage can provide a whole damn lot of Spell Defence dice.
Mardegun
- ahhh, so you can't summon spirits in astral space?
- Oh yeah, I forgot about spell defense, but then the mage can't do much else can they?

So you say astral recon can be useful, but how? Simple layout and number of people? The astral recon can't see mundane objects very well, but I suppose that isn't that important is it? For example, there are 2 large trolls with large weapons guarding X door in that building. If that is the extend of astral recon, then why would most places be worried about astral intruders? Admittedly that is very useful info, but there could be plenty of mundane security that a astral mage would never see.
Frag-o Delux
Astral mages are pretty good tailers also, especially if the target has no magic or is completely unaware of you trialing them.
Lilt
I don't believe you can defend against a physical spell from the astral.

A +2 on seeing mundane objects isn't all that bad. The +2 TN is no worse than the partial light (a city street at night) or mist (mist/light rain/snow) visibility modifiers.

A mage who has an ally with the sense link power could possibly get the ally to materialise and relay what he sees from the physical, getting around the problem with reading signs/paper from the astral.

Some people have suggested allowing an astral perception spell (allowing anyone to perceive the astral). I'm not saying it's possible, but if that spell existed then so-too could a "physical perception" spell allowing astral mages to see the physical plane normally (and read stuff ETC).

An astral mage with posession could possibly posess a dual-natured critter (such as those alledgedly used as guard animals to protect against astral intrusion), use shapechange/transform to turn him back humanoid, and do whatever he wanted from there. It may even be possible to summon spirits while posessing, but I'm not sure. (dammn, I wanna try doing that sometime)

Hmm. There are probably more. Astral magicians can really bend your day over a barrel and rodger it, no KY, no cuddles.
Darkest Angel
To be honest, I've never found projection to be really that useful, but then the real benefits come after initiation with access to the metaplanes. I find 99% of the things you can do projecting you can do while perceiving then 0.9% of the rest you can do with technology or sorcery (clairvoyance), such as tracking people, finding building layouts. But then there's always that 0.1%, which actually saved one of my characters lives once.

Loosing the essence and consequent magic rating makes it pretty useless as an on-the-spot ability in the middle of a run, and the complete lack of armour in astral space makes life very dangerous.
Eyeless Blond
Really the most important thing a mage can do with astral projection--before all that metaplane stuff and initiation--is do a sort of "astral overwatch," much like the decker can do from inside a building's security system. For details I suggest you look here, at the Infiltration Challenge thread. So far the guy on astral recon has been invaluable as a scout, and has a great stealth rating even when the majority of the guards are dual-natured.
Zazen
On spell defense, the astral mage could only protect subjects who were astrally present; they must share a plane for spell defense to work. It should, however, work for all spells. He could also use astral barrier, spell wall, etc. to provide this service indirectly.

But Lilt may be right in "choose desired plane" games, where special rules have to be made up to accomodate. It's weird how that keeps coming up.
Sphynx
Lilt: What mean you about the +2 to see while projecting? There's no such rules that I'm aware of (The +2 is to do things with your physical body while Perceiving, nothing with Projection). And M's right, you can't read anything from the Astral Plane, no matter if you Manifest or not.

I do like the idea, however, of a "Physical Perception" spell.

Darkest: An Astral Armour spell is common among mages who Project, along with ShatterShield, SpiritBlast, and Spirit Bolt. And the Astral Armour doesn't even glow, it's one of those "Quicken" me kinda spells. wink.gif

Sphynx
Zazen
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Lilt: What mean you about the +2 to see while projecting? There's no such rules that I'm aware of (The +2 is to do things with your physical body while Perceiving, nothing with Projection). And M's right, you can't read anything from the Astral Plane, no matter if you Manifest or not.

It's an astral visibility modifier (in MITS) for "searching for mundane object" or, as many play, generally observing anything mundane without the benefit of physical sight.
Darkest Angel
I've found I can provide perfectly good astral overwatch while maintaining perception, and a spirit. Also provides an extra pair of feet on the ground and I can lay down more pepper too when things stop going right. It also gives you the option of calling up Watchers on a Whim, which you can't do while projecting.

Also, while projecting your taking physical drain from those spell walls you're casting, as well as their area of effect being diminished from the moment you project. Also, a masked physically present Mage can walk through a ward with equal ease to a projecting mage.

As for Conjuring and Possessing, Conjuring is an exclusive act, you can't do it while possessing which is also a magical act. Nor can you sustain spells without a sustaining focus while conjuring.
Darkest Angel
Sphynx, I am aware of those spells - but I just don't like, nor find the need to, project enough to justify taking them. I've found so little use for projecting, other than to the metaplanes, that of all the years I've been playing Mages, I've only seriously projected twice, one of those was because I was captured and wearing a mage mask and it was the only way to get the rest of the group to my location.
Bearclaw
A hermetic who's already conjured his elementals can call them up though, can't he?
Jpwoo
you guys are right, scouting a building halfway across the world with no prepartaion and little risk isn't a useful ability at all. You know players never ever astrally scout anything and hardly ever project. they should really just eliminate it from the game as it is entirely useless.
Sphynx
Thanks for pointing that out Zazen, though I think it's obvious those rules are only for searching, not observing, but to each their own.

DA: I agree for the most part, unless you build a character around being a projector, it's not as great. One of our guys locally has built his entire character around spirits/projection, and all his spells are to help in the Astral (including foci and quickens to do that better). I'm scared to go on any run without him really, he's the biggest astral bad-ass ever, and as a Dual Natured dwarf, I appreciate that backup support, in addition to his Scouting potential.
Darkest Angel
Bearclaw: You certainly can, as can a Shaman who conjured a Hearth Spirit at home and put it on Standby.

My point really though, is that projecting requires a lot of preparation to do it right, but recon and combat requires a lot of seat of the pants versatility, something that for a quick recon sweep does not make for an effecient service. I'd rather go down the Clairvoyance route, you get normal vision, you get a pretty good idea of personel numbers (although perhaps not perfect), and you don't actually have to risk your life to do it. Obviously projection gives you the added sense of hearing what's going on, but designing a Telepresence spell isn't too hard.
Zazen
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Thanks for pointing that out Zazen, though I think it's obvious those rules are only for searching, not observing, but to each their own.

Yeah, I know, but when someone does something that should obviously incur a penalty (identifying a gun, for example), that's the closest thing we've got.
Bearclaw
What's the range on Clairvoyance?

My point is, a hermetic always has elementals on standby. The usefulness of a scout who can move at near infinite speeds, pass through walls, and suddenly drop 3 pissed off fire elementals behind the oppositions back can not be over estimated.
Darkest Angel
Touch smile.gif You cast it on yourself, and see what you can see, so there isn't really a range on it. However, you can't actually effect anything through it unless you're just using it to zoom in on something. A very potent spell, but it is resisted so you might be able to see round the corner, but you can't be certain there's no one there.
Bearclaw
No, there's a range on how far clairvoyance can see. Just like any other detection spell. I see why you think that astral projection isn't as cool though. If you had an unlimited range clairvoyance, astral projection wouldn't be nearly as cool.

Lilt
When I say Physical Spell, I mean a spell cast on the physical plane. It is true that if the character is dual-natured (percieving/dual being) then they can be protected too. It is a good point that an astral barrier spell could increase opposing TNs... I didn't consider that.

As for conjuring whilst posessing, I was also wondering (but not entierly sure) wether or not it counts as a magical activity. There is also precidence for using conjuring whilst posessing in the the novels:
[ Spoiler ]
But that's somewhat far from canon as far as normal characters are concerned.

My comment about the +2 TN is still relatively accurate. I still consider +2 TN to seeing mundane objects to be synonymous to a +2 TN for looking for mundane objects perception modifier. In my games it would still be roughly as hard for a mage to notice a drone trundling along from the astral as it would be for a normal human to see one in the mist or partial light. Sphynx: I'm a bit confused by your distinction between observing and searching. How would you rule the above drone-noticing situation?

The problem with clairvoyance is that people can resist it. If a sec-guard resists your clairvoyance spell then you will not see them which could cause problems.
Frag-o Delux
Sorry DA but Claivoyance is a detection spell. You touch yourself and now you can use it upto force x magic meters. So say you have a a force 6 Clairvoyance and you are magic rating 6, congradulations your power is now 36 meters. Meaning to see the good stuff in a building will still need to get very close to the danger zone.


MitS p. 140 Detection Spells. all detection spells.
Bearclaw
Which means that if you want to see the stuff past the 9th floor, you have to be INSIDE the building.
Frag-o Delux
No it means if you want to use that power it is good up to 36 meters. If you are stnding at the fence of the corp HQ and the building is 37 meters away you get to see the lawn in very good detail.
Bearclaw
You are arguing without paying attention to what I said.
4 meters per floor. 9 floors = 36 meters. If you want to see anything on the 10th floor, you must actually be inside the building. Just because the map is two dimensional doesn't mean the building is.
Darkest Angel
Ahh my bad. It still is very useful, since you can generally get a damn good idea of most floors of a building from the layout of just a couple of low floors, lifts and stairwells being the most useful information.

You could also make an extended area version, whacking it's range upto 360m, which keeps you very safe, and able to see just about anywhere in most buildings.

Of course, nothing beats 'being there', but at the end of the day it depends on the risks you're willing to take, and how well prepared you are to do it. As I say, so far as cost in both time an nuyen for preparation are concerned the pitfalls can far outweigh the benefits of projection. Indeed, I'm sure Clairvoyance would make excellent 'pre-recon' to see whether it's worth a proper look around.
Frag-o Delux
Yes an extended range version is very handy.

And Bearclaw I did pay attention, it is just in my games or the ones I play in HQs are usually surrounded by a zero zone. I just made an assumption and was wrong. That is very true you could stand outside next to a building and look 9 stories up adn 36 meters in, I have done it myself. Chances are though you are getting a small protion ot the building and would have to do laps around the building to at least get the outside edge of the complex. Doing so though can be just as dangerous as Projecting. I am sure the corps are looking for something like that. So they could either put a ward up, possibily to stop prying eyes, guardian vines or Fiberboard (the magical kind) again I assume that those vines and board block LOS with such spells or at least make it harder to see with that spell, at least that is wha twe did the last time I tried peaking somewhere. The disadvantage to Clairvoyance over projection, if you get caught snooping you can fly at 1000 meters aturn or some such high number to get away, in person you are bound to your meat for the escape.

I don't project much myself so I am not sure how fast you can go. I use Claivoyance a lot a long with clairaudio, so I can passwords being given out. smile.gif

For for the assumption and misunderstanding.


EDIT: A lot can be done with that spell. Like checking sewers for escape routes with out actually getting dirty or raising eyebrows. Being able to sneak a peak at a distance is good. Another cool thing is if yo have cyberware or physical adept powers they are functionalable while useing that spell. Meaning you can use your Low light or thermo with that spell. It is good when you sneak a peak in an office and all the lights are out. go Low Light and you are good.
Sphynx
QUOTE (Lilt)
Sphynx: I'm a bit confused by your distinction between observing and searching. How would you rule the above drone-noticing situation?

I'd tell them there was a Drone there, I see no reason, either canon nor theme, to require a +2 to notice something like that. Just like I don't make it harder to notice ships in an ocean, or which building is the Behemoth Tower.

Sphynx
Rev
QUOTE (Mardegun @ Mar 23 2004, 03:21 PM)
9) Spirits can be difficult to deal with.  Banishing them will warn their master

Well a lot of the spirits used for guard duty really ought to be on remote service, in which case the summoner does not know if they are destroyed. The summoner has to be within some distance in the tens of meters (magic x charisma maybe? magic x 10?), or the spirit is on remote service and the conjurer looses contact with it. Not sure if this works the same for elementals as it does for nature spirits though, and the rules don't say anything about it with regard to watchers. IMHO with watchers, because they are supposed to be weaker spirits in general, the summoner should never automatically know when they are destroyed or controlled (unless of course he/she sees it happen).

PS no books with me, so maybe somone could read the relevant sections and refine/correct the canon claims I have made here because I may well have it mixed up. smile.gif

One thing to keep in mind with astral penetrations is that while good astral security should be fairly expensive and rare very rapid and overwhelming astral response is cheap and common. Because of the astral fast movement speed one can quite reasonably expect numerous magicians on duty with lonestar (or whoever) and many of their spirits to join the fight within tens of seconds of the organization becoming aware of it. For physical response you will typically have at least a few minutes, and it is easier to see them coming, but for astral response you may have only seconds and no way to know exactly when they will show up.
BitBasher
QUOTE
is very true you could stand outside next to a building and look 9 stories up adn 36 meters in, I have done it myself.
Goofy fact, the Clari????ience series of spells is LOS. You have to see the point at which the spell is cast and where your perception shifts to. It's not as useful as you make it out to be.
Mardegun
So far no one has given clear reason why astral projection is so great. I am not asking for page numbers and precise descriptions, but just saying it is useful without examples is useless.

Here are some question/comments from people response so far.

Can a astral projecting mage use spell defense for his mundane buddies? Personally I don't see why not. Magic exists on the astral plane, so why couldn't a projected mage hinder a spell casted on a buddy in the physical plane? This is similar to how astral barriers work.

For example mage in the physical plane can cast astral barrier and any spell casted through it, whether it is on the astral plane or not is effected by the astral barrier. Why couldn't a mage in astral space do the same ... do the rules address this directly?

Frag-o Delux
QUOTE
Astral mages are pretty good tailers also, especially if the target has no magic or is completely unaware of you trialing them.


I was really only thinking of infiltrating a building, but this is a good point anyway.

Lilt
QUOTE
A mage who has an ally with the sense link power could possibly get the ally to materialize and relay what he sees from the physical, getting around the problem with reading signs/paper from the astral.


Very good point! I hadn't though of this, however are there a lot of problems with this? For example how many services would it take to get a good amount of info? You need a service for the spirit to materialize, you would need another one or two to get the spirit past a astral barrier. Then wouldn't you need a service for everything you want the spirit to look at? Plus how do you record all of this? Can you record using sims?

On top of all of this, how easier or hard is it to have a ally spirit with sense link power?

QUOTE
Some people have suggested allowing an astral perception spell


I am not touching this question with a 10m foot pole. That is for a different thread. wink.gif

Eyeless Blond
QUOTE
"astral overwatch," much like the decker can do from inside a building's security system.


Another good point, but is it really worth it? Darkest Angel and I seem to have the same opinion on this matter. So you can materialize and tell the team about something around the bend ... wouldn't it be a hell of a lot more useful having the mage in the physical plane?

After all what else can the mage do? Sorry I haven't used the link to the 'Infiltration Challenge thread.' ... I only have so much time to read this stuff, right now.

Zazen
QUOTE
On spell defense, the astral mage could only protect subjects who were astrally present


If this was the case, would spell defense be completely useless in most cases? How often do you have a group of people projecting or other wise astral present? The most common situation I can think of is when a adept is using astral perception and needs some spell defense ... however just like 'astral watch', wouldn't it be far more useful for the mage to be physical present?

Jpwoo
QUOTE
you guys are right, scouting a building halfway across the world with no prepartaion and little risk isn't a useful ability at all. You know players never ever astrally scout anything and hardly ever project. they should really just eliminate it from the game as it is entirely useless.


How about something useful? Besides there is more than a little risk to using this ability. If you don't think so, then you didn't read my first post.

Sphynx
QUOTE
I'm scared to go on any run without him really, he's the biggest astral bad-ass ever, and as a Dual Natured dwarf, I appreciate that backup support, in addition to his Scouting potential.


So the only real reason, this astral mage is useful is because your character is a dual being? Besides for your specific character is that astral mage really that useful?

Darkest Angel
QUOTE
Bearclaw: You certainly can, as can a Shaman who conjured a Hearth Spirit at home and put it on Standby.


What about crossing domains? Doesn't that count even if the spirit goes on stand by? Can someone confirm this?

Rev
QUOTE
Well a lot of the spirits used for guard duty really ought to be on remote service, in which case the summoner does not know if they are destroyed.


Great point! and thanks for correcting me. Although even without alarming the summoner, aren't spirits a pain in the ass to deal with any way? I am not familiar with the banishing rules.

ps: For anyone who doesn't know, a extend spell doesn't increase the range of the spell by x10, but the damage code is bump up to!.
Rev
QUOTE (Mardegun)
Rev
QUOTE
Well a lot of the spirits used for guard duty really ought to be on remote service, in which case the summoner does not know if they are destroyed.


Great point! and thanks for correcting me. Although even without alarming the summoner, aren't spirits a pain in the ass to deal with any way? I am not familiar with the banishing rules.

Just a couple months ago I banished my first spirit in game.

I am fairly sure I have these rules, correct, but it is from memory:

Magician makes a conjuring test against the spirit's force.
Spirit makes a force test against the magicians magic attribute.

Net sucesses either reduce the spirits force, or temporarily reduce the magicians magic attribute (regeneratng one per hour, or somethign like that).

The winner of the test gets to decide if the banishing continues, the looser cannot take any other action (and as the target number for the winner goes down each round whoever wins the first one will usually win the banishing).

So even if you arent a great conjuror you can be quite confident of banishing a force 4 spirit and that spirt will have no opportunity to flee. Force 5-6 spirits are a lot more difficult, still a moderate initiate or good conjurer will usually beat them

Also, especially in sr3, weapon foci are very effective against spirits while projecting. With both reach and attack power bonuses from the weapon remaining most spirits are pretty veulnerable astrally.
BitBasher
QUOTE
Very good point! I hadn't though of this, however are there a lot of problems with this? For example how many services would it take to get a good amount of info? You need a service for the spirit to materialize, you would need another one or two to get the spirit past a astral barrier. Then wouldn't you need a service for everything you want the spirit to look at? Plus how do you record all of this? Can you record using sims?


Ally spirits dont use services, they are allies, they do whatever you want them to. You dont record anything astrally, you relay it to your teammates.

QUOTE
On top of all of this, how easier or hard is it to have a ally spirit with sense link power?
It costs a whopping one karma during ally spirit creation.

I don't see a single reason to have a mage on astral overwatch projecting, but they are invaluable at scouting out locations beforehand. Information is power, and information can keep you alive. For example you can trip an alarm on person and the astral mage could tell you every single protocol and procedure that happens when an alarm is tripped while sitting in their control room and listening to them. Then they hit the building in the future at their leisure. There are many examples like this.
John Campbell
QUOTE (BitBasher)
Goofy fact, the Clari????ience series of spells is LOS. You have to see the point at which the spell is cast and where your perception shifts to. It's not as useful as you make it out to be.

No, they're not. They're touch range/voluntary subject, just like basically all the other Detection spells. The spell is cast on the person to be given the new sense, not on the location to be sensed with it. The descriptions never say that LOS to the location to be sensed is required, and the TNs imply that it isn't (6, the TN for "target is out of sight of caster").

And, in fact, you have no LOS while using Clairvoyance. It replaces both regular vision and astral perception, and you can't target spells using it.
Rev
Some examples from games I have played in where astral projection was very usefull.

1) I penetrate a building while physically masked as the other mage accompanies me astrally. He scouts ahead for me astrally, to tell me if certain rooms are occupied, and to quickly identify interesting ones by astral impression of thier contents. Because of the information he could quickly and very stealthily find regardless of physical barriers I knew not to open the door the security mage was behind, which room was the storage closet I could hide in, and which had an unusually large computer system for a nightclub.

2) I penetrate a building invisibly with a projecting mage. He can go ahead rapidly to scout for astral and living security. I enter an office to search it, and he stands guard astrally in the hallway ready to warn me if security approaches, and by manifestation to provide a distraction to aid my escape if necessary.

3) Many many times the astrally projecting mage will simply scout ahead to provide an estimate of the threat level in a building or behind a door.

4) One charachter stalks a magical enemy while invisible, another stalks from astral. The enemy has the choice of either engaging an invisible opponant (+8 t#), or of astrally perceiving and engaging two opponants (one at +2 from perceving).

5) Many magical charachters have dramatically better mental than physical stats thus they may be very effective at astral combat, while being rather weak at physical combat due to low strength and body. Quite commonly they can rip spirits apart astrally, but just survive fighting on the physical plane. It is often wise to have such a specialist keep thier body safe (with the rigger, or decker) and astrally accompany the rest of the party. Particularly if you have other magicians in the group to provide physical magic and spell defense.

QUOTE (BitBasher)
QUOTE

On top of all of this, how easier or hard is it to have a ally spirit with sense link power?

It costs a whopping one karma during ally spirit creation.

I think it is 5 karma for that power, still well worth it IMHO.
blakkie
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Being able to sneak a peak at a distance is good. Another cool thing is if yo have cyberware or physical adept powers they are functionalable while useing that spell. Meaning you can use your Low light or thermo with that spell. It is good when you sneak a peak in an office and all the lights are out. go Low Light and you are good.

Physsie yes, but cyber eyes/ears? I don't have my manuals with me right now, but that doesn't sound right.
gknoy
QUOTE (Rev)
1) I penetrate a building while physically masked as the other mage accompanies me astrally. He scouts ahead for me astrally, to tell me if certain rooms are occupied, and to quickly identify interesting ones by astral impression of thier contents. Because of the information he could quickly and very stealthily find regardless of physical barriers I knew not to open the door the security mage was behind, which room was the storage closet I could hide in, and which had an unusually large computer system for a nightclub.

How did he convey this information to you? Can astrally projecting characters communicate with people in the meatworld, or would he have to return to his body, speak in a radio, and then project again? (I'm shaky on all the magical mechanics in general, so please pardon my ignorance.)
Mardegun
Thanks Rev for your examples, however I have some questions that you or anyone can comment on.

1) I take it you guys don't encounter magic security much?

2) Two mages? Wow, you guys really have a stacked deck? wink.gif I think having two mages, deckers or even riggers can make things much easier.

In any case, you do have some good examples, but I still think that having a physical present mage is better. I suppose from a purely recon point of view they are more useful, as people have mentioned.

btw it looks like if a mage is caught behind a astral barrier in astral space, that we are screwed. Unless the mage can break down or mask through the barrier, they could die. All the mage that casted astral barrier has to do, is wait out the astral mage.

Considering this potential problem, is astral projecting really worth it? Otherwise all astral projecting mages need a spell to break barriers.
John Campbell
QUOTE (gknoy)
How did he convey this information to you? Can astrally projecting characters communicate with people in the meatworld, or would he have to return to his body, speak in a radio, and then project again?

Astrally projecting mages can manifest on the physical plane, which allows them to be seen and heard.
blakkie
QUOTE (Mardegun @ Mar 23 2004, 08:46 PM)
btw it looks like if a mage is caught behind a astral barrier in astral space, that we are screwed.  Unless the mage can break down or mask through the barrier, they could die.  All the mage that casted astral barrier has to do, is wait out the astral mage.

Considering this potential problem, is astral projecting really worth it?  Otherwise all astral projecting mages need a spell to break barriers.

Not quite true. Mage meat of the projector should travese -into- the barrier, if you leave behind the appropriate magic gear. Once again a use for the Mage Bag™, just hang that magical gimp on the back of your handy team troll and away you go. cool.gif Once the body is on the same side as the projection he gets back in and off you go.
Mardegun
QUOTE (blakkie @ Mar 23 2004, 09:23 PM)

Not quite true. Mage meat of the projector should travese -into- the barrier, if you leave behind the appropriate magic gear. Once again a use for the Mage Bag™, just hang that magical gimp on the back of your handy team troll and away you go.  cool.gif Once the body is on the same side as the projection he gets back in and off you go.

Can you point me to where those rules are, so when I have the books I can look it up? Thanks
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Mardegun)
1) I take it you guys don't encounter magic security much? 

Magical security isn't very easy to deploy and use. Living barriers are expensive and usually obvious or easy to avoid (vines growing on the outside of the building? Just go through the roof! or the ground!) The main problem with astral security is that the defender must consider all three degrees of freedom vulnerable to attack rather than two. Additionally each unit is expensive to buy and more costly to maintain, and only bars a small area from entry, so the chokepoint--a hallmark of the modern security system--is practically impossible. All but the most paranoid of companies would certainly rather spend the extra money on security cameras and a harder host, maybe springing for a kennel of dual-natured attack dogs or a good combat mage to put on patrol; why worry about the third lock on the back door when the front is wide open?

QUOTE
2) Two mages?  Wow, you guys really have a stacked deck? wink.gif  I think having two mages, deckers or even riggers can make things much easier.

Is that really so unusual? In the Infiltration Challenge thread we have two mages and an infiltration adept. One of the mages (also the group face) is providing a distractiondown the street--just a small gang war--and has a few elementals on tap just in case. The other is doing astral recon; the decker is in the building's host; and the rigger is in captain's chair mode watching the drones. The infiltration adept is the only one actually on-site physically, and only because he's got Traceless Walk and an absolutely killer stealth/environment suit. The astrally projecting mage is still more stealthy though, and has been doing most of our scouting, even when we found out that most of the guards and workers happenned to be dual-natured (we don't know why yet.)

QUOTE
In any case, you do have some good examples, but I still think that having a physical present mage is better.  I suppose from a purely recon point of view they are more useful, as people have mentioned.

An astral mage is much more stealthy than a meatbody mage. True he's not as physically capable, but mages generally aren't anyway. smile.gif Also, if you're really serious about stealth then the mission is a failure as soon as shots are fired. At that point it doesn't matter that your mage can throw a Fireball; you're already in deep crap nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
Considering this potential problem, is astral projecting really worth it?  Otherwise all astral projecting mages need a spell to break barriers.

They do. It's called astral combat smile.gif
Sphynx
QUOTE (Mardegun)
Sphynx
QUOTE
I'm scared to go on any run without him really, he's the biggest astral bad-ass ever, and as a Dual Natured dwarf, I appreciate that backup support, in addition to his Scouting potential.


So the only real reason, this astral mage is useful is because your character is a dual being? Besides for your specific character is that astral mage really that useful?

Two things...

1) You've never been ambushed by a group of watchers (doesn't matter if you're Dual Natured or not)

2) If 1 character ability was that much better than anything else, the game would be insane. You're asking a question like: "Why use combat spells when you can have a gun?" or "Why use a gun when you can use Melee?". Is Astral Projection worth the whole 3 BPs it's calculated to be worth? Absolutely. But, it's just as worth it to spend those BP's somewhere else too.

Sphynx
Mardegun
Eyeless Blond

QUOTE
Magical security isn't very easy to deploy and use.


What about wards? They last for weeks and I believe the mage who created it knows if it destroyed. On top of that they aren't that expensive.

Besides, no one would have magic security everywhere.

QUOTE
Is that really so unusual? In the Infiltration Challenge thread we have two mages and an infiltration adept.


It is based on my experience. I have never been in a group with more than one mage. I have even played in groups with no mages at all.

QUOTE
An astral mage is much more stealthy than a meatbody mage.


As long as no one is looking, which I suppose you could argue doesn't happen often. wink.gif

QUOTE
Also, if you're really serious about stealth then the mission is a failure as soon as shots are fired. At that point it doesn't matter that your mage can throw a Fireball; you're already in deep crap


Actually I am assuming that the mission does fail and in that you will want a mage with you and not in astral space. What good is the mage, when his mundane buddies are getting shoot up? ... this is one of my main points. Runs never go perfect and if they did, it would be a boring game. ;P

QUOTE
They do. It's called astral combat


A mage isn't going to break down a astral barrier in astral combat. They would have to use a spell to break it down.

Astral combat uses the melee combat rules. Assuming the power of the mage's attack is at least 1/2 the power of the barrier, the best they will do is reduce the barrier by 1, for each attack. Then at the end of the turn the barrier is back up to full strength.

Sphynx
QUOTE
1) You've never been ambushed by a group of watchers (doesn't matter if you're Dual Natured or not)


How is a astral mage better than a physical mage when dealing with watchers?

QUOTE
2) If 1 character ability was that much better than anything else, the game would be insane.


That isn't what I am asking at all. I am only asking the question to see why people feel that astral projection is so great. So far there is only one really good reason.

My places don't have any magical protection.
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Mardegun)
[On the Astral Plane]Spirits can be difficult to deal with. Banishing them will warn their masters
You can't Banish a spirit while Astrally Projecting, as Banishing is an Exclusive action (Banishing, SR3.189). Banishing is not possible while astrally projecting or perceiving (Astral Conjuring, SR3.189). The sole means of dealing with hostile spirits on their home turf [Astral Plane] is astral combat (Astral Conjuring, SR3.189), which can include spellcasting of non-exclusive mana spells.

QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Astral mages are pretty good tailers also.
I only have physical mages Tailor my clothes. After all, the Fashion Spell is a physical spell and can not be cast by an Astral mage. wink.gif

QUOTE (Lilt)
I don't believe you can defend against a physical spell from the astral.
I'm not sure what this means, as astral targets can not be hit by physical spells, and astral spellcasters can not cast physical spells.

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
the real benefits come after initiation with access to the metaplanes
I don't know what benefits you are thinking of. Metaplane access doesn't help with astral scouting, and astral scouting rocks, as Rev described.

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
[The essence reduction while in astral space causes you to take] physical drain from those spell walls you're casting, as well as their area of effect being diminished from the moment you project [because your essence is getting reduced]
The Essence of the magician's astral form does not get reduced during an astral mission. (While you were out, SR3.173)

QUOTE (Jpwoo)
(Sarcastic)you guys are right, scouting a building halfway across the world with no prepartaion and little risk...
I'm with you on this. But just FYI, it takes a long time to get halfway across the world. The opposite point on the globe is 20,000 km away, and you can only get 18,000 km away in 3 hours at 6000 km/hr. (And then 3 hrs to get back to your body.) And I hate it when I get lost over the Atlantic at night.

QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
a Shaman who conjured a Hearth Spirit at home and put it on Standby...
If the Shaman leaves that Hearth Domain (say to drive down the street) then the spirit no longer owes the Shaman any services (Domains, SR3.184).

QUOTE (Mardegun)
Can an astral projecting mage use spell defense for his mundane buddies?
Only subjects on the Same Plane as the magician--astral or physical--and within a distance equal to the magician's Magic Attribute x 100m, can be protected by Spell Defense. (Spell Defense, SR3.183)

QUOTE (Mardegun)
For anyone who doesn't know, a extend spell doesn't [just]increase the range of the spell by x10, but the damage code is bump up too!.
It does not increase the damage the spell does to others. Instead it increases the drain level the spellcaster has to resist. (MitS.56)

QUOTE (Eyeless Blond)
Just go through the roof! or the ground!
Note, it is difficult and slow to go through the ground (Passing through the Earth, MitS.80). It can take hours and the magician can get lost.

QUOTE (Mardegun)
A mage caught behind an astral barrier in astral space is screwed. Unless the mage can break down or mask through the barrier, they could die.
Yes, pretty much. If he has an Ally Spirit, he can communicate to the Ally and have it seek help. Otherwise there's not a good way to let anyone know where he is. He can't Conjure a spirit, and he can't even start an Astral Quest, as that can only be done when first projecting from the physical body. One alternative we know of is for the magician to be Disrupted (10 boxes of Stun) in Astral Combat. Then he is popped back to his body and has to resist Magic Loss (Astral Damage, SR3.175-176). Some GMs also interpret 10 boxes of Physical as Disruption with the same affect. Also a lost battle with a barrier results in disruption of the magician, which pops him back to his body where he rolls for Magic loss. When he rolls for Magic Loss, I believe the correct interpretation is to use the full Magic Rating of the magician, not his temporarily reduced value, but that's just my interpretation.
Lilt
OK: Firstly: the melee combat rules are not used for astral objects, these have their own rules on P176, SR3.

Secondly: It's not realistically possible to set-up a ward or other barrier fast enough to trap a mage. Well: Spells could do it, but spells can be dispelled.

Also you might want to note that the odds are stacked somewhat in the mage's favour when taking down an astral barrier.
Mage rolls charisma against force. Barrier rolls force vs charisma.
If mage wins, reduce barrier force
If barrier wins, reduce mage magic
Note that here that if the barrier loses force, it lowers the mage's TN and the number of dice it gets to roll.
Comparatively, when the mage loses magic he gets to roll the same number of dice and the barrier's TN remains the same.

It's quite possible for a Cha 6 character, especially one with a spirit pack, to take-out a F6 astral barrier in 1 combat turn (3-4 attacks) especially if they have karma pool available (which spirits can often have in abundance).
blakkie
QUOTE (Mardegun)
QUOTE (blakkie @ Mar 23 2004, 09:23 PM)

Not quite true. Mage meat of the projector should travese -into- the barrier, if you leave behind the appropriate magic gear. Once again a use for the Mage Bag™, just hang that magical gimp on the back of your handy team troll and away you go.  cool.gif Once the body is on the same side as the projection he gets back in and off you go.

Can you point me to where those rules are, so when I have the books I can look it up? Thanks

For the Mage Bag™? wink.gif

Seriously though, it is astral barriers stop astrally present items. The astral presense of the mage's body is projecting, i.e. not with the body. There is the bit of trickiness involved with finding your body, but that isn't much of a problem if everything goes according to plan. wink.gif
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (Mardegun)
What about wards?  They last for weeks and I believe the mage who created it knows if it destroyed.  On top of that they aren't that expensive.

Besides, no one would have magic security everywhere.

Actually I didn't even consider wards. I'm probably one of the newest people here, having been introduced to SR less than three weeks ago smile.gif Yeah, looking over magical wards they're really not all that expensive; comes out to about 2:nuyen: per cubic meter per couple of weeks for a Force 6 ward. That'd be pretty much impassible by a single mage. 'course, if it were me I'd be charging a whole lot more than 100:nuyen: per hour for such a specialist service like warding, but that's just me.

QUOTE
It is based on  my experience.  I have never been in a group with more than one mage.  I have even played in groups with no mages at all.

Ah. Well, if you generally have no mages in your games then it doesn't really matter what the advantages of astral projection are, does it?

QUOTE
As long as no one is looking, which I suppose you could argue doesn't happen often. wink.gif

Pretty much, yeah. What I was more referring to though is that astral movement is completely traceless, noiseless, and *fast*, all three of which don't necessarily apply to the real world unless you've spent lots of effort, skills and/or adept powers.

QUOTE
Actually I am assuming that the mission does fail and in that you will want a mage with you and not in astral space.  What good is the mage, when his mundane buddies are getting shoot up? ... this is one of my main points.  Runs never go perfect and if they did, it would be a boring game. ;P

You mean that your groups fail at *every* mission you attempt? Jeez, maybe you guys should play D&D or something. nyahnyah.gif

Seriously, though, of course not everything goes exactly as planned. But at least this way your mage has a better chance of going unnoticed.

QUOTE
A mage isn't going to break down a astral barrier in astral combat.  They would have to use a spell to break it down.

Astral combat uses the melee combat rules.  Assuming the power of the mage's attack is at least 1/2 the power of the barrier, the best they will do is reduce the barrier by 1, for each attack.  Then at the end of the turn the barrier is back up to full strength.

Not quite. Breaking down astral barriers in Astral Combat is different from breaking down barriers in the real world. See SR3 p. 176
RedmondLarry
QUOTE (Mardegun)
OK, I admit right here and now, that I am just learning the finer details of the magic rules. With that said, how effective can a astral intruder be?
Your points about the "good" things are all reasons to do it. Your points about the "bad" things are all things the magician has to consider before doing it.

I believe the GM's job is to set up a challenging environment for the players, not to kill them off in as many sudden and messy ways he can think of. As such, the GM has to have the traps (if any) either be difficult but survivable, or there has to be a warning of the lethality of a place that the characters can discover if they do their legwork.
Backgammon
QUOTE (Zazen)
On spell defense, the astral mage could only protect subjects who were astrally present; they must share a plane for spell defense to work.


Thanks, didn't know that. Will make a big differance in my current campaign.
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