This thread has digressed Can we get back to my original question?

What kind of information can a mage get from astral projection?

1) General layout of building. However unless the mage can record his astral flight, it is all in memory ... could you imagine yourself trying to remember the layout a building, especially if you are traveling at light spell?
2) Enemy positions. Again this is certainly useful.
3) Get emotion imprints, which vary in the degrees of usefulness.
4) Look for mundane objects with a +2 moodier
5) With the use of a ally spirit or clairvoyance a caster can see normally from the astral plane.
6) Detect magical security

I know I am missing some things, but it is early and I haven't had any caffeine yet.

Here again are some of the major bad points
1) Gone from the meat body too long and you die
2) You can't provide any physical assistance to buddies. This include spell defense.
3) You can't summon spirits or do any other exclusive action
4) You can't banish spirits while projecting, because it is a exclusive action
5) You body is a sitting target
6) If your body is moved, you could become lost.

On a side note, I don't see how a projecting mage is better than a physical mage when dealing with spirits. A physical mage can
a) Banish them
b) Summon spirits to help
c) Can cast the same spells a astral mage can to attack the spirit.

Plus, a physical mage doesn't have to worry about astral combat, which could lower his magic rating.

The critical question that I can't remember the answer to is ... Can a spirits on the astral plane use their power on people in the physical plane? I assume not, so unless the spirit materialize, the worst it can do is sound the alarm ... which of course is bad, but a astrally perceiving mage can handle the spirit.

Edit: Off-topic

How about if you checked out the building and then used a trid phastasm spell to reproduce the images you have seen. If you allow tht then you can take images of that. Technically all yo have to so is ahve seen something before to use Trid phantasm, not remember every detail.

Well a mage who very adept at asral scouting might be able to creat the illuson then use the illusion to creat a better representation of what he saw. Like say he had a sustaining foci crated the illusion, sustained it then created a "artist" redition of wha the intereptups from the illusion of what he saw. Just a thought. If his team is use to working with the astral adept maybe they could start making interpretations. Like a group of satellite photo researchers. You know the guys that look at out of focus and grainy photos then determine wha they are looking at. Soemtimes they are on the money, sometimes way off, but generally close enough. Again just a thought.

Hmm I did intend it as a joke, but on the other hand I can see where things such as colour and lighting might make things very difficult for an accurate enough representation, either through illusion, inference in drawing from memory and even worse description, especially when labled doors and direction signs become an issue. A non tech savvie mage would have even more difficulty when trying to describe some machine component he never saw in his life before.

say they have some spirit doing walkaround guard duty with orders to report to guardhouse the moment it spots someone without the correct id badge outside of visiting hours. the only one fast enough to stop that spirit is a astraly projecting mage. anyone else can at best cast a spell but that will not hold back a spirit unless we are talking creative use of the astral barrier spell...

3 things make astral projecting useful, speed, manuverability and the fact that he isnt on the same plane as the rest of the world spells have the bad habbit of leaving drain damage, if your fast you will not even get a drop in essence when projecting.

basicly projection is only as useful as you want it to be. if you like useing spells and spirits to get the job done do so, others like doing it in person

Banishing is a very good way way to eliminate a spirit giving it no chance to escape. Each round the winner gets to choose if the banishing continues, the looser cannot flee. A very good way to eliminate a spirit guard without projecting (can't banish while projecting, but astral combat works pretty well there).

I usually use projection for scouting in the legwork phase of the run, so that I can still go in with the team. Being spotted by spirits is a hassle, but you can try hiding behind things. Any legwork you do risks alerting the opposition, so I don't mind that aspect too much. What I really like about it is you can just do it on the spur of the moment. If there is a ward, or astral guards, rethink, if not you can scout at your leisure. We don't have a decker, and me scouting is the quickest way to get information.

Knowing what astral security a place is useful, as spirits and wards can ruin your day on the physical too.

I've also used it to manifest in front of someone, and talk to them, both teammates, and others (yes, it tends to freak them out).

It's also a good way to eavesdrop.

Some runs, I use it a lot, and some not at all. But before I made that character, it came up often enough that we wished we had someone with astral projection that I was always going to take it.

Mardegun,

Without chopping the issue into minutia an easy measure of the usefulness of projecting is just keep track of how often it happens in a game. It is by no means the most amazing ability of a mage, and you wouldn't want to make an adept whose only ability was to astrally project, but there are definate times when it is useful.

Like anything in SR its usefulness is appropriate to the circumstances. You don't want to astrally project in the middle of a car chase for example. Though astrally projecting when you have someone to watch your body makes sense.

Your argument could be made on any number of subjects. One could argue that guns in shadowrun are overated, or riggers, or anything. So I am not really sure what you are looking for.

Use projection when appropriate.

How can an astrally projecting mage keep up with a speeding car? Slow movement is too slow and you can't keep track of the car if you're moving fast.

I'd let the mage follow the cars, he can't assense something or observe in detail but if he's moving at relatively the same speed as the cars then observing them would probably not require observe in detail actions (unless you'd ask for observe in detail actions whilst the mage is following at the slow movement rate).

Observe in detail = Perception check?

blakkie wha tI meant is an astral mage could scout the building then come back to his mates and reproduce what he saw astrally with the illusion spell. Then give them a briefing or perhaps generate a permanent model of sorts, 3D graphics on a comp, or a mock up sand box like the military use.

I agree with the photographic memory edge. The character I have been playing has it and is a mage. I made him as a lone opperator that is now stuck with a team, it has been fun. The Gm suggested a lot of things and Photographic memory was one of them. So now he uses his skills for the team like checking out possible targets then briefign the team on the subject. USing affore mentioned technique.

Exactly, slow to look for details of the nonobvious nature as needed. The rest of the time going car speed, or faster to catch up. If there are spirits or other mages involved in the chase they should fall into the obvious unless Masked. Pop back into the physical if you need to communicate something really important to your driver. Or better yet have a spirit with you that can crash your opponent, cloak your car, speed up the car, or manifest for communication as needed.