Free Spirits as PC's in SR4 Options

[Turing]

My GM has hinted that he wouldn't mind if I brought a Free Spirit PC into his game, but I wanted to clarify a few things.

The Runner's Companion states that a free spirit's Force sets the natural minimums and maximums for all stats, including magic.

Does this mean that a Force 6 spirit has a rating of 6 across the board in all stats?

This seems to be exceedingly cheap from a chargen viewpoint, as the cost of raising force is the same as any other stat (ie 10 BP per level, with, presumably, a 15 BP premium for maxing the stat).

Am I reading this wrong?

Arlyansor

[Epicedion]

All of a free spirit's attributes start at 2 (instead of 1). You have to buy them up like normal, with the maximum being the Force of the spirit.

[Turing]

But this is what Runner's Companion states:

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

This passage implies, to me at any rate, that a Force 6 spirit has rating 6 in all attributes, by setting the MINIMUM for all attributes as being equal to Force.

Is there an official ruling on this anywhere?

[Glyph]

I don't think so. The general consensus seems to be that it is just incredibly poor wording, though. Because going purely by that interpretation of RAW would make free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

[Turing]

I don't doubt that - I was wanting to know the consensus simply before I presented the concept to my GM.

Thanks,

Arlyansor

[Irion]

Your quote is correct.

So there are two possible interpretations:
First: In order to raise the Force you have to raise every single Attribute.
Second: The minimum is determind by the minimum Force (2) and the maximum is determined by the current force.

Since the first one would cripple every free spirit character (and does not really fit to the rest of the text), people tend to go with the second one.

[Yerameyahu]

You'll want to search for the twelve previous (long, argumentative) threads about this topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wesley Street]

You're going to need to use your common sense and a bit of GM fiat when using the PC AI and PC Free Spirit charagen rules. They're very poorly worded.

[KarmaInferno]

I don't think so. The general consensus seems to be...

Is that The Consensus?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)




-k

[pbangarth]

I play two Free Spirit PCs, one on Dumpshock and one in a home game. Both are built with the Attributes beginning at 2 and the physical and mental Attributes, as well as Edge, having to be raised individually up to the maximum set by Force. In the home game we use karmagen, and therefore the 'hard max' cost is not relevant, but when we considered BP gen it was deemed to have been paid at chargen when all the stats are at the limit set by the Force of 2. In the Dumpshock game, BP are used and the 'hard max' extra BP is paid if the Attribute is brought up to the final Force value at chargen.

Each PC is a useful addition to his or her team, with unique skills and weaknesses without being overpowered in comparison to other PCs.

[ggodo]

Is that The Consensus?

That's GENERAL Consensus to you. Sir will do as well.

[Epicedion]

But this is what Runner's Companion states:

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

This passage implies, to me at any rate, that a Force 6 spirit has rating 6 in all attributes, by setting the MINIMUM for all attributes as being equal to Force.

Is there an official ruling on this anywhere?

My copy of Runner's Companion also says this:

In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 (their starting Force) at the start of character generation.

In other words, all attributes start at the minimum potential Force of a free spirit, and use the final Force rating as attribute maximums.

Note that it in your quoted text it doesn't say how Force determines attribute minimum and maximums, just that it determines them. It does say that Maximum Natural Attribute = Force, but it doesn't say that Minimum Attribute = Force. It also doesn't say that increasing Force increases any Attributes (and implies otherwise).

The line that you're focusing on is a throwaway line, since it doesn't say anything explicitly, and the other lines do.

[Turing]

Actually, I've just noticed the following on page 91 of Runner's Companion:

"Free spirit characters are also built slightly differently than metahuman characters. The “metatype” cost of a free spirit character is 250 BP."

As this only gives Free Spirits only 150 BP to spend on everything else, I (personally) would rule that a Free Spirit's stats are equal to Force (as per my previous quote). As a GM, I'd have to think hard about allowing a Force 6 Free Spirit into the game (especially a starting or low powered game) though.

That said, however, with the (relatively) massive 'racial' cost of being a Free Spirit, and having to spend a further 55 BP to raise Force to 6, leaving a Force 6 Free Spirit with the grand total of only 95 BP for skills, it's all about equal...

Arlyansor.

[Seth]

Like Pbangarth I play a free spirit character. I also GM one of his. There have been many long argumentative threads about how to interpret the wording, and I come down strongly on the "you start at 2 and buy each attribute up separately" side.

Without a doubt free spirits are some of the most effective characters out there. Their die pools are smaller, but their advantages are very high, and their ability to buff their colleagues is out of this world.

The other issue is that you will have more "arguments" with the GM over your character as a free spirit than any other. This is because the character has strengths and weaknesses that are different to normal characters. If as well as being different you are also significantly more powerful than the others (which you will be if you have force 6 implies all attributes at 6) then you and the GM are not going to have a fun time.

[Seerow]

Actually, I've just noticed the following on page 91 of Runner's Companion:

"Free spirit characters are also built slightly differently than metahuman characters. The “metatype” cost of a free spirit character is 250 BP."

As this only gives Free Spirits only 150 BP to spend on everything else, I (personally) would rule that a Free Spirit's stats are equal to Force (as per my previous quote). As a GM, I'd have to think hard about allowing a Force 6 Free Spirit into the game (especially a starting or low powered game) though.

That said, however, with the (relatively) massive 'racial' cost of being a Free Spirit, and having to spend a further 55 BP to raise Force to 6, leaving a Force 6 Free Spirit with the grand total of only 95 BP for skills, it's all about equal...

Arlyansor.

I agree with this. I mean really, the current general consensus on the forums make a free spirit pretty much unplayable. To get your stats to reasonable level, you basically abandon everything else.

I can see the concern with post char-gen free spirits growing powerful too quickly by increasing their force, quickly becoming super at everything, but at character gen, a standard PC Free Spirit doesn't seem like it'd be playable without having the force set attributes. It'd be a lot easier to swallow if the racial buy in were way cheaper (like 30-50, maybe as high as 75. But not 250).

[Yerameyahu]

Psh, 'only' 95BP of skills for the immortal 6-everything planar-teleporting, flying, astral-sprinting spirit with bonus IPs, Magician, critter powers based on the fantastically useful Edge attribute… including Immunity to Normal Weapons (at Force 6, facrissake)? Where do I sign up? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The problem has always been that Free Spirits are either insanely good, or insanely bad, depending on the interpretation you use. Both suck, so you can't use either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Turing]

Like Pbangarth I play a free spirit character. I also GM one of his. There have been many long argumentative threads about how to interpret the wording, and I come down strongly on the "you start at 2 and buy each attribute up separately" side.

Without a doubt free spirits are some of the most effective characters out there. Their die pools are smaller, but their advantages are very high, and their ability to buff their colleagues is out of this world.

The other issue is that you will have more "arguments" with the GM over your character as a free spirit than any other. This is because the character has strengths and weaknesses that are different to normal characters. If as well as being different you are also significantly more powerful than the others (which you will be if you have force 6 implies all attributes at 6) then you and the GM are not going to have a fun time.

What I don't get with your (and Pbangarth's) post is that you state you prefer the 'Force sets the max but stats start at 2' thing - but if a free spirit character has only 95-150 BP (after paying the horrific 'racial' cost) to buy stats AND skills AND misc, that's not much of a character.

That's really quite harsh for any Free Spirit PC. It means that at start, except for a couple funky abilities, they're essentially gimped - no stats above a 2 or 3, not many skills, and no abilities other than materialisation/possession.

Yes, yes, they are Immune to Normal Weapons, but that hinges on force (Forcex2 Hardened Armor essentially) but a large enough attack will still penetrate and disrupt the spirit quite nicely thank you.

A question then, for those that run or GM Free Spirit PC's - what was the 'racial' BP cost that you used for those characters?

[Dahrken]

Yes, yes, they are Immune to Normal Weapons, but that hinges on force (Forcex2 Hardened Armor essentially) but a large enough attack will still penetrate and disrupt the spirit quite nicely thank you.

Even if disrupted he will come back in play fully healed roughly a month later, were a mage (to take another archetype usually not physically powerful) faced with the same attack is likely to end up definitively dead so it's not that bad I think...

[Irion]

@Turing

As this only gives Free Spirits only 150 BP to spend on everything else, I (personally) would rule that a Free Spirit's stats are equal to Force (as per my previous quote).

Sometimes I realy would like it, if people would do the math before posting.
Spirits get an ass full of Bonis. (Edge gives them power points, they get hardend armor equal to force, they can't die etc.)
But lets focus und the attributes.

Every Spirit starts with 2 in every Attribute.
This gives him 10*10=100 BP. Not bad to start with.
(If I only increase the normal attribute with force it ends up with)
Force 3 100+80=180 Free Points.
Force 4 100+80+80= 260 free Points.
Force 5 100+80+80+80= 340 free Points.

Free Spirits come out quite good in Karma Gen. (And there are ways around the friendship packt. Just get more friends than you need and kick the suckers when they are going to die.)

The real pain in the ass is, that increase Attribute (and all the other health spells for boni) are all physical spells. (Why I do not know)
So a spirit has close to no way to boost him or herself.

[Yerameyahu]

That just means you can't cast them while astral, Irion.

[darthmord]

That just means you can't cast them while astral, Irion.

Yep, and once they are cast, you can sustain them whether you are astral or physical.

I should add that it was also mentioned by the person who made the rules for Free Spirit PCs that the original cost was supposed to be 85 BP. I believe the floor and ceilings were intended to be gated by Force but not specifically linked to each other like they are with the current wording in RC.

[Irion]

Sounds strange, but I shall believe you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What I don't get with your (and Pbangarth's) post is that you state you prefer the 'Force sets the max but stats start at 2' thing - but if a free spirit character has only 95-150 BP (after paying the horrific 'racial' cost) to buy stats AND skills AND misc, that's not much of a character.

That's really quite harsh for any Free Spirit PC. It means that at start, except for a couple funky abilities, they're essentially gimped - no stats above a 2 or 3, not many skills, and no abilities other than materialisation/possession.

Yes, yes, they are Immune to Normal Weapons, but that hinges on force (Forcex2 Hardened Armor essentially) but a large enough attack will still penetrate and disrupt the spirit quite nicely thank you.

A question then, for those that run or GM Free Spirit PC's - what was the 'racial' BP cost that you used for those characters?

Their abilities are based upon Edge, AND they get some abilities for Free.
The one Free Spirit I created is actually pretty damn good. Force 6 and Edge 5 (as Yerameyahu indicated) is NO JOKE. so I only have 3 skills or so, so What. So the majority of his stats are a 2, again, so what. His abilities are definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Friendship Pact allows you to return tot hte Physical World (once disrupted) when you are healed. So, within a couple of days at the outside. Userful power that. Pick up Life Pact and you have a ready supply of Karma waiting whenever your pacted members need healing. Also quite useful.

As for Hardened Armor. They still get their armor to resist the damage if it is higher than the Hardened aspect. And if the Spirit has Realistic Form (an additional Force Dice to Mimic something Real), he does not even look like a spirit most of the time.

Also, Used 250 BP as racial Cost.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed. Look at it this way: the spirits you summon don't really have skills, either (a couple). You summon them because they know Concealment, or have ITNW, or Accident (0.5 PP!), or Guard, or Confusion, or Movement (!), or Regeneration, just to name a few incredible powers unavailable to any other character. That, plus Stunbolt… who needs skills? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Did I mention you can sustain all your critter powers for free?

I still don't think this means either interpretation is ideal, or even playable under normal circumstances. I'd prefer a method that lets you have normal-ish Attribs, while also *normal* levels of spellcasting and critter powers. It's a tall order, because every Free Spirit is basically the mystic adept++ from hell (a literal possibility, I guess), so decent stats and normal gear (armor, guns) is just hard to balance in there; thank god they can't get cyber. *shrug* They're Free Spirits, one of the rarest, weirdest options in a pretty big list of rare, weird options.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Which is why purchasing Stats Independantly works for me. Made the same Character with Karmagen, and man, what a difference that made. Crazy.