My GM has hinted that he wouldn't mind if I brought a Free Spirit PC into his game, but I wanted to clarify a few things.

The Runner's Companion states that a free spirit's Force sets the natural minimums and maximums for all stats, including magic.

Does this mean that a Force 6 spirit has a rating of 6 across the board in all stats?

This seems to be exceedingly cheap from a chargen viewpoint, as the cost of raising force is the same as any other stat (ie 10 BP per level, with, presumably, a 15 BP premium for maxing the stat).

Am I reading this wrong?

Arlyansor

All of a free spirit's attributes start at 2 (instead of 1). You have to buy them up like normal, with the maximum being the Force of the spirit.

But this is what Runner's Companion states:

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

This passage implies, to me at any rate, that a Force 6 spirit has rating 6 in all attributes, by setting the MINIMUM for all attributes as being equal to Force.

Is there an official ruling on this anywhere?

I don't think so. The general consensus seems to be that it is just incredibly poor wording, though. Because going purely by that interpretation of RAW would make free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

I don't doubt that - I was wanting to know the consensus simply before I presented the concept to my GM.

Thanks,

Arlyansor

Your quote is correct.

So there are two possible interpretations:
First: In order to raise the Force you have to raise every single Attribute.
Second: The minimum is determind by the minimum Force (2) and the maximum is determined by the current force.

Since the first one would cripple every free spirit character (and does not really fit to the rest of the text), people tend to go with the second one.

You'll want to search for the twelve previous (long, argumentative) threads about this topic.

You're going to need to use your common sense and a bit of GM fiat when using the PC AI and PC Free Spirit charagen rules. They're very poorly worded.

Is that The Consensus?






-k

I play two Free Spirit PCs, one on Dumpshock and one in a home game. Both are built with the Attributes beginning at 2 and the physical and mental Attributes, as well as Edge, having to be raised individually up to the maximum set by Force. In the home game we use karmagen, and therefore the 'hard max' cost is not relevant, but when we considered BP gen it was deemed to have been paid at chargen when all the stats are at the limit set by the Force of 2. In the Dumpshock game, BP are used and the 'hard max' extra BP is paid if the Attribute is brought up to the final Force value at chargen.

Each PC is a useful addition to his or her team, with unique skills and weaknesses without being overpowered in comparison to other PCs.

That's GENERAL Consensus to you. Sir will do as well.

My copy of Runner's Companion also says this:



In other words, all attributes start at the minimum potential Force of a free spirit, and use the final Force rating as attribute maximums.

Note that it in your quoted text it doesn't say how Force determines attribute minimum and maximums, just that it determines them. It does say that Maximum Natural Attribute = Force, but it doesn't say that Minimum Attribute = Force. It also doesn't say that increasing Force increases any Attributes (and implies otherwise).

The line that you're focusing on is a throwaway line, since it doesn't say anything explicitly, and the other lines do.

Actually, I've just noticed the following on page 91 of Runner's Companion:

"Free spirit characters are also built slightly differently than metahuman characters. The “metatype” cost of a free spirit character is 250 BP."

As this only gives Free Spirits only 150 BP to spend on everything else, I (personally) would rule that a Free Spirit's stats are equal to Force (as per my previous quote). As a GM, I'd have to think hard about allowing a Force 6 Free Spirit into the game (especially a starting or low powered game) though.

That said, however, with the (relatively) massive 'racial' cost of being a Free Spirit, and having to spend a further 55 BP to raise Force to 6, leaving a Force 6 Free Spirit with the grand total of only 95 BP for skills, it's all about equal...

Arlyansor.

Like Pbangarth I play a free spirit character. I also GM one of his. There have been many long argumentative threads about how to interpret the wording, and I come down strongly on the "you start at 2 and buy each attribute up separately" side.

Without a doubt free spirits are some of the most effective characters out there. Their die pools are smaller, but their advantages are very high, and their ability to buff their colleagues is out of this world.

The other issue is that you will have more "arguments" with the GM over your character as a free spirit than any other. This is because the character has strengths and weaknesses that are different to normal characters. If as well as being different you are also significantly more powerful than the others (which you will be if you have force 6 implies all attributes at 6) then you and the GM are not going to have a fun time.

I agree with this. I mean really, the current general consensus on the forums make a free spirit pretty much unplayable. To get your stats to reasonable level, you basically abandon everything else.

I can see the concern with post char-gen free spirits growing powerful too quickly by increasing their force, quickly becoming super at everything, but at character gen, a standard PC Free Spirit doesn't seem like it'd be playable without having the force set attributes. It'd be a lot easier to swallow if the racial buy in were way cheaper (like 30-50, maybe as high as 75. But not 250).

Psh, 'only' 95BP of skills for the immortal 6-everything planar-teleporting, flying, astral-sprinting spirit with bonus IPs, Magician, critter powers based on the fantastically useful Edge attribute… including Immunity to Normal Weapons (at Force 6, facrissake)? Where do I sign up?

The problem has always been that Free Spirits are either insanely good, or insanely bad, depending on the interpretation you use. Both suck, so you can't use either.

What I don't get with your (and Pbangarth's) post is that you state you prefer the 'Force sets the max but stats start at 2' thing - but if a free spirit character has only 95-150 BP (after paying the horrific 'racial' cost) to buy stats AND skills AND misc, that's not much of a character.

That's really quite harsh for any Free Spirit PC. It means that at start, except for a couple funky abilities, they're essentially gimped - no stats above a 2 or 3, not many skills, and no abilities other than materialisation/possession.

Yes, yes, they are Immune to Normal Weapons, but that hinges on force (Forcex2 Hardened Armor essentially) but a large enough attack will still penetrate and disrupt the spirit quite nicely thank you.

A question then, for those that run or GM Free Spirit PC's - what was the 'racial' BP cost that you used for those characters?

Even if disrupted he will come back in play fully healed roughly a month later, were a mage (to take another archetype usually not physically powerful) faced with the same attack is likely to end up definitively dead so it's not that bad I think...

@Turing

Sometimes I realy would like it, if people would do the math before posting.
Spirits get an ass full of Bonis. (Edge gives them power points, they get hardend armor equal to force, they can't die etc.)
But lets focus und the attributes.

Every Spirit starts with 2 in every Attribute.
This gives him 10*10=100 BP. Not bad to start with.
(If I only increase the normal attribute with force it ends up with)
Force 3 100+80=180 Free Points.
Force 4 100+80+80= 260 free Points.
Force 5 100+80+80+80= 340 free Points.

Free Spirits come out quite good in Karma Gen. (And there are ways around the friendship packt. Just get more friends than you need and kick the suckers when they are going to die.)

The real pain in the ass is, that increase Attribute (and all the other health spells for boni) are all physical spells. (Why I do not know)
So a spirit has close to no way to boost him or herself.

That just means you can't cast them while astral, Irion.

Yep, and once they are cast, you can sustain them whether you are astral or physical.

I should add that it was also mentioned by the person who made the rules for Free Spirit PCs that the original cost was supposed to be 85 BP. I believe the floor and ceilings were intended to be gated by Force but not specifically linked to each other like they are with the current wording in RC.

Sounds strange, but I shall believe you.

Their abilities are based upon Edge, AND they get some abilities for Free.
The one Free Spirit I created is actually pretty damn good. Force 6 and Edge 5 (as Yerameyahu indicated) is NO JOKE. so I only have 3 skills or so, so What. So the majority of his stats are a 2, again, so what. His abilities are definitely a force to be reckoned with.

Friendship Pact allows you to return tot hte Physical World (once disrupted) when you are healed. So, within a couple of days at the outside. Userful power that. Pick up Life Pact and you have a ready supply of Karma waiting whenever your pacted members need healing. Also quite useful.

As for Hardened Armor. They still get their armor to resist the damage if it is higher than the Hardened aspect. And if the Spirit has Realistic Form (an additional Force Dice to Mimic something Real), he does not even look like a spirit most of the time.

Also, Used 250 BP as racial Cost.

Indeed. Look at it this way: the spirits you summon don't really have skills, either (a couple). You summon them because they know Concealment, or have ITNW, or Accident (0.5 PP!), or Guard, or Confusion, or Movement (!), or Regeneration, just to name a few incredible powers unavailable to any other character. That, plus Stunbolt… who needs skills? Did I mention you can sustain all your critter powers for free?

I still don't think this means either interpretation is ideal, or even playable under normal circumstances. I'd prefer a method that lets you have normal-ish Attribs, while also *normal* levels of spellcasting and critter powers. It's a tall order, because every Free Spirit is basically the mystic adept++ from hell (a literal possibility, I guess), so decent stats and normal gear (armor, guns) is just hard to balance in there; thank god they can't get cyber. *shrug* They're Free Spirits, one of the rarest, weirdest options in a pretty big list of rare, weird options.

Which is why purchasing Stats Independantly works for me. Made the same Character with Karmagen, and man, what a difference that made. Crazy.

I didn't even mention any of the Greater Powers, because I think they're all too insane for use. They include things like Wealth, Karma Drain, body *stealing*, etc.

No Doubt. I did not think they even had Costs associated with them. I Will have to check my book again to make sure that they do not.

Karmagen is a good way to go, with the modification of spending the 'racial' build cost in karma points. This costs a Free Spirit 250 karma out of the 750 regular amount. It leads to a competent and cool character that doesn't overshadow the other PCs.

Agreed, Bryneir (pbangarth's free spirit) has some very useful abilities and makes an exceptional scout, but in combat she's no better than Cale (my street sam/infiltrator) except against opponents with *very* heavy armor. Also the way you play her, which I think makes sense given her qualities and origin makes her use in social situations somewhat variable, which gives the other characters opportunities there as well.

If you interpret the other way it still makes free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

The stuff in runners companion is totally broken. You either end up with SuperSpirit or SuperWimp depending on which side of the contradictory rules you choose to use.

It's unclear exactly what the writer was trying to say, as it was butchered by the editor, and it's conceivable that somewhere there is a version that doesn't contradict itself and actually could produce playable and vaguely balanced characters. But I've never seen it.

If you want to do a free spirit you should rewrite the rules from scratch. The idea that you need pacts to get Karma as a PC is STUPID, you should not be able to use them AT ALL if the GM is even vaguely interested in balance.

You keep saying super wimp. This is probably because you haven;t played it. A free spirit with 400bp is as viable a character as super wimp as any other character. It isn't a pornomancer, but it works

Free spirits don't need to be pornomancers. Everyone already wants to dikote them and have sex with them.

I went through the entire entry on Free Spirit PCs line by line in another post explaining why Force doesn't equal every stat. While Force is the stat used to determine both your minimum and your maximum, it doesn't equal both your minimum and maximum. You just need it to calculate what those minimum and maximums are; the math for which is given in the next couple of paragraphs.
If Force equals every stat, then there wouldn't be any other math necessary. That would be that. There are, however, two more formulas later in the description.

The only way to interpret "Force = Everything" is to both assume determine means equal and to suddenly lose the ability to read right after that sentence.

I think the better question is why you would want to play a Free Spirit to begin with. If it's to create an interesting or innovative take on play, then playing it as wirtten is more than what you'll need for your runs. If the answer is "because I want 6's in everything" you might want to reconsider the character.

Well, it will likely be slightly less effective than the average 150 BP character in a group of 400 BP characters. The limits on force utterly screw you if you choose that interpretation. You have a magician who can have a magic of 4 if he takes 30 points of disads and only has characteristics. No spells, no magic skills. Yeah, that's sure to impress your teammates.

Again, you don't need skills. Just Edge. You have plenty of crazy, unmatchable powers.

Step 0: Buy Free Spirit (250 points)
Step 1: Buy Force 5. (30 points)
Step 2: Buy enough Edge to have the power points to get Elemental Attack. (10 points)
Step 3: Buy rating 3 in Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Agility. (40 points)
Step 4: Buy Exotic Ranged Weapon (Elemental Attack) 5. (20 points)
Step 5: Buy Assensing 3, Spellcasting 3, Counterspelling 3. (36 points)
Step 6: Find something to do with 14 BP.

Now you've got a moderate spellcaster with a 5 damage / -half Impact armor / 0 Drain ranged attack on 8 dice (that would normally have a drain of 5). You've also got 2 IPs, Hardened Armor 10, and the ability to just poof off into astral space whenever. And fly.

Note: being able to bodily move into astral space and back is almost like being able to teleport.

So you're not superman, but you're not exactly crippled.

Don't forget that you can jump *beyond* astral and back, too. It's crazy. And you're immortal. So you can fly, pseudo-teleport on the physical, *and* pseudo-teleport on the astral. It's like Inception.

Ah hey...

all this about players as spirits and powers got me thinking a bit:

Say, do any of you have a good idea of how and if a free spirit could get some of the OTHER greater powers available to invoked ones? For example "Storm" or "Quake"? Would it be fair to be able to get one? They are excluded normaly, but is it logical?
(Small question about that. HOW LONG does a storm last, no indication in the power itself. Only duration: Special... all other "special duration powers are pretty much always on). I have to assume it is "at will" which is pretty insane.)

And now for the main course:
WHY on earth do player spirits (and AI) get less than the NPC-versions of them? ALL spirit types get added attribute points, (AI's too). But player characters somehow are capped at their force and have no penalties or boni like they SHOULD have. Most Spirits have between +3 to +8 bonus total. Giving them what they DESERVE woul alleviate the "damn they are so weak" in lower force levels.

The Spirit Powers available to Free Spirits are rarely considered in the claims that Free Spirit PCs are 'wimps'. Just part of the powers available to my 750 karma Free Spirit PC (Force 6, Edge 6) are Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Mutable Form.

Think for a few minutes what flexibility just those three powers in concert give her, particularly when her Disguise Skill (which pool is boosted by her Edge because of Mutable Form) is added into the consideration.

Indeed... some of the Same powers that I have for my Free Spirit as well.

Sounds like a good way to make the broken 'super' interpretation of Free Spirits vastly worse, Summerstorm. Free Spirits aren't Great Form… I'm not even sure it's possible for them to be (NPC or PC). Possibly an invoker could do it if they first bound the free spirit with its formula?

Step 2 is buy Body 5, Agility 5, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Charisma 5, Intuition 5, Logic 5 and Willpower 5 so your have the required minimums in all your stats. That requires 240 points of the 120 points you have left.

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

I have no idea what the writer/editor was trying to say, but the rule either means that increasing force means you automatically increase all your stats (which kind of makes sense for 250 points) or it means that any time you increase force you have to pay to increase all your stats.

That's simply absurd.



No, the line you're focusing on does not say in any way how Force determines the natural minimum, just that it does. It explicitly states later that Force = natural maximum, taking care of that one, but it never goes back to address the minimum. It goes on to state that all attributes start at 2 at the beginning of character generation, which implies that all attributes have a minimum of 2 (which implies that the minimum Force for the spirit is also the natural minimum for all other attributes). It never suggests that all attributes are always equal to Force, as it explicitly states with Magic. If it were going to be that simple it would say something like, "Free Spirits have a special Force attribute that starts at a rating of 2. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. All of a spirit's Physical, Mental, Magic, Edge, and Essence attributes are equal to its current Force."

I can't stop anyone from trying to win the "who can give this paragraph the most obtuse spin imaginable" award, but I don't see any sense in abandoning reason just to prove a point. Everyone already knows it's badly written. The words aren't magically going to rearrange themselves, so you just have to make do with what you have.

The section should read, for clarity:

Free Spirits have a special Force attribute that starts with a rating of 2, which also acts as the spirit's Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 at the start of character generation. The spirit's Force rating serves as the natural maximum for its Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes.

All I did was remove one sentence that contained no explicit information, and then I cleaned up the style.

The rules are not written so badly.
If you read the rules with the purpose to play with them, there is no problem.
Yes, you are able to start an argument by introducing the rules from streetmagic into the mix (rules which should not exist in the first place).

If you just read the rules out of RC it is obvious, that the interpretation of Epicedion is the correct one.
Yes, you could argue otherwise, but this to be considered everywhere.
You could also argue, that laserweapons do not allow for a reaction test, because they hit you with the speed of light, so you do not have a possibility to dodge.


Simple: Because you do not need to balance NPCs in any way. It is absurd.
If you want an NPC Überspirit, you just give him the powers/stats you want. It is not important if he would need 700 or 7000 Karma to pay for those. You won't use Karma anyway. So what the hell?
(This is part of the reason I do not get the rules for NPC free spirits)
A PC free spirit on the other hand has to be comparable to his or her teammates. So if you start to have a Überspirit right out of Karma Gen, then it is not fair compared to other players.

Don't even, Irion. The rules are *incredibly* badly-written.

Why an "Überspirit"? Nah i just want them to have the modifiers they should have.

For example an air-spirit no matter what tradition or force is ALWAYS a lot faster than an earth spirit. But much less resilient and strong. why are ALL (player) free spirits the same. And the same WEAK (just with pure attributes of course). The origin, purpose, "race" and such of an free spirit should be an issue. And also EVERYTHING in existance has mostly boni. Trolls, Elves, Orcs, Drakes, Infected, PIXIES (EUGH...), and everything. The only one who have no natural boost-up are the humans... which make up in readily available access to technology.

I am not talking like the +8 like some the primordial spirits in the Running Wild. But more something like "-1,+2, +2, -1" or something Maybe providing a list of "sets" the player can choose for his spirits (so like choosing to have 2 small penalties for two good boni or just one penality-one bonus or huge penalty for two good boni etc. ? Re-arranging a few of his attributes penalties and boni. But overall: Yeah, a few points overall should be ADDED.

Can i also add that the "friendship" pact is HORRIBLY bad. I would rather leech my karma from somewhere... but for powergaming reasons player-Free spirits can't get a karma-syphoning power. But i still think they should easily be able to "receive" karma. The good old "pay me in LIFE" is a universal truth when working with spirits.

Hm, reading all the spirit stuff makes me want to make a character... Also thinking: Plasteel is just fiber-glassed-steel something. I can build a MUCH tougher homunculous. I am thinking more in tungsten and titanium alloys, some mallable sheeting. Wearing a strength-enhanced milspec armour... bwahaaha (sorry.... i am calming down now)

So everything would be more complicated.
For example: What would be the aug. max.? Force *1.5 oder (Force+ Attribute mod)* 1.5.
Would the attribute Mod count as natrual or as augmented?

@Yerameyahu
I disagree considering the attributes. Some powers are strange. Friendship pact, realistic form and Aura masking come in mind.

Things get only complicated when you MAKE them complicated. They would be racial mods. And of course the "Force=maximum natural Attribute" rule would have to be rewritten as to accomidate for this. Mental attributes of course will be untouched.

I am giving a concrete example.

Bob makes a free spirit character. He decides that his character is a weakened free spirit, which broke free after his master died in a fight. He himself is was a guardian spirit.
(A guardian Spirit normaly has a whopping B+1, A+2, R+3, S+2)
So he consultates the provided list (not provided *g*) and chooses the "roundabout all positives Set" with +1,+1,+2,+1 over other sets like the "Behemoth +4,-2,-2,+4" or "The lightweigth -2,+3,+4,-2" These mods are "racial" attribute points for min and max, and are used under the same rules.

(Note : These "Sets" or the rules to set up yopur own boni have to be playtested and checked before. Reaction and agility are normaly more "worth" than strength, excessive bonis to one value are more worth than lower ones too more etc.)

I am just proposing something like this because:

1. While powers and abilities are fun... most people would like to roll some dice sometimes too.
2. Nearly ALL, but the frailed, weakest spirits do have higher attributes than force. You don't say to the players: AND you are the frailes, weakest kind of spirit. You are playing a kickass entity with the seed of greatness. You don't need to be a Force 12 free Spirit to be as strong as a force 6 earth elemental... if you already ARE and were concentrated on MIGHT. Feels bad.
3. On lower forces and with stating attributes they NEED the boost only magical improvements are available, and they can't bind foci to sustain that. All other races can get their fix somewhere.

I am not saying that ALL character types have to be equal (well, i would even say i am pretty much against that in every form), wherever and whatever they do. But a bit nudge here and there is just vital to have people REALLY enjoy their characters.

EDIT:
Ah and i wopuld like the same for AI's too (There it is the mental attributes of course). It is even more blatant with them: NO chance of improvement, extremely low ceiling (i would let them raise ANYTHING over 6 in my game though.) and blatant informations: NPC Metasapients have clearly a +1 Cha and +1 Wil as per "Unwired". Other Types have different, and more extra-points.

@Summerstorm

Well, the acutal ruling is much easier. And here we are stuck with an other question. If you would take the Behemoth set, your agility and reaction would drop to zero. So you would need to invest BP to get them to 1 or not? Or would it only cap, the maximum and your minimum would stay 2?

So every Metahuman should have access to spirit powers equal to the edge attribute?

But a spell on yourself and you will get it too.

So what? They are still a valid and good choice. Even superior.

As we've said, Free Spirits aren't anything like normal characters. They've got powers literally no one can get, and all kinds of innate advantages (including, I forgot to list earlier, no-penalty astral sight at all times). Yes, they also have a couple unique disadvantages (no simsense/AR/etc.), and they don't have stats and skills like a normal character. That's fine, cuz they're *not* normal characters. Almost any effort you make to make them normal will only further imbalance them; tradeoffs to prevent that would only make them less spiritlike.