Free Spirits as PC's in SR4 Options

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't even mention any of the Greater Powers, because I think they're all too insane for use. They include things like Wealth, Karma Drain, body *stealing*, etc.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I didn't even mention any of the Greater Powers, because I think they're all too insane for use. They include things like Wealth, Karma Drain, body *stealing*, etc.

No Doubt. I did not think they even had Costs associated with them. I Will have to check my book again to make sure that they do not. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[pbangarth]

Karmagen is a good way to go, with the modification of spending the 'racial' build cost in karma points. This costs a Free Spirit 250 karma out of the 750 regular amount. It leads to a competent and cool character that doesn't overshadow the other PCs.

[Raven the Tricks...]

Agreed, Bryneir (pbangarth's free spirit) has some very useful abilities and makes an exceptional scout, but in combat she's no better than Cale (my street sam/infiltrator) except against opponents with *very* heavy armor. Also the way you play her, which I think makes sense given her qualities and origin makes her use in social situations somewhat variable, which gives the other characters opportunities there as well.

[kzt]

I don't think so. The general consensus seems to be that it is just incredibly poor wording, though. Because going purely by that interpretation of RAW would make free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

If you interpret the other way it still makes free spirit PCs completely unbalanced.

The stuff in runners companion is totally broken. You either end up with SuperSpirit or SuperWimp depending on which side of the contradictory rules you choose to use.

It's unclear exactly what the writer was trying to say, as it was butchered by the editor, and it's conceivable that somewhere there is a version that doesn't contradict itself and actually could produce playable and vaguely balanced characters. But I've never seen it.

If you want to do a free spirit you should rewrite the rules from scratch. The idea that you need pacts to get Karma as a PC is STUPID, you should not be able to use them AT ALL if the GM is even vaguely interested in balance.

[Seth]

The stuff in runners companion is totally broken. You either end up with SuperSpirit or SuperWimp depending on which side of the contradictory rules you choose to use.

You keep saying super wimp. This is probably because you haven;t played it. A free spirit with 400bp is as viable a character as super wimp as any other character. It isn't a pornomancer, but it works

[Glyph]

Free spirits don't need to be pornomancers. Everyone already wants to dikote them and have sex with them.

[Fortinbras]

I went through the entire entry on Free Spirit PCs line by line in another post explaining why Force doesn't equal every stat. While Force is the stat used to determine both your minimum and your maximum, it doesn't equal both your minimum and maximum. You just need it to calculate what those minimum and maximums are; the math for which is given in the next couple of paragraphs.
If Force equals every stat, then there wouldn't be any other math necessary. That would be that. There are, however, two more formulas later in the description.

The only way to interpret "Force = Everything" is to both assume determine means equal and to suddenly lose the ability to read right after that sentence.

I think the better question is why you would want to play a Free Spirit to begin with. If it's to create an interesting or innovative take on play, then playing it as wirtten is more than what you'll need for your runs. If the answer is "because I want 6's in everything" you might want to reconsider the character.

[kzt]

You keep saying super wimp. This is probably because you haven;t played it. A free spirit with 400bp is as viable a character as super wimp as any other character. It isn't a pornomancer, but it works

Well, it will likely be slightly less effective than the average 150 BP character in a group of 400 BP characters. The limits on force utterly screw you if you choose that interpretation. You have a magician who can have a magic of 4 if he takes 30 points of disads and only has characteristics. No spells, no magic skills. Yeah, that's sure to impress your teammates.

[Yerameyahu]

Again, you don't need skills. Just Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You have plenty of crazy, unmatchable powers.

[Epicedion]

Well, it will likely be slightly less effective than the average 150 BP character in a group of 400 BP characters. The limits on force utterly screw you if you choose that interpretation. You have a magician who can have a magic of 4 if he takes 30 points of disads and only has characteristics. No spells, no magic skills. Yeah, that's sure to impress your teammates.

Step 0: Buy Free Spirit (250 points)
Step 1: Buy Force 5. (30 points)
Step 2: Buy enough Edge to have the power points to get Elemental Attack. (10 points)
Step 3: Buy rating 3 in Intuition, Logic, Willpower, and Agility. (40 points)
Step 4: Buy Exotic Ranged Weapon (Elemental Attack) 5. (20 points)
Step 5: Buy Assensing 3, Spellcasting 3, Counterspelling 3. (36 points)
Step 6: Find something to do with 14 BP.

Now you've got a moderate spellcaster with a 5 damage / -half Impact armor / 0 Drain ranged attack on 8 dice (that would normally have a drain of 5). You've also got 2 IPs, Hardened Armor 10, and the ability to just poof off into astral space whenever. And fly.

Note: being able to bodily move into astral space and back is almost like being able to teleport.

So you're not superman, but you're not exactly crippled.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget that you can jump *beyond* astral and back, too. It's crazy. And you're immortal. So you can fly, pseudo-teleport on the physical, *and* pseudo-teleport on the astral. It's like Inception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Summerstorm]

Ah hey...

all this about players as spirits and powers got me thinking a bit:

Say, do any of you have a good idea of how and if a free spirit could get some of the OTHER greater powers available to invoked ones? For example "Storm" or "Quake"? Would it be fair to be able to get one? They are excluded normaly, but is it logical?
(Small question about that. HOW LONG does a storm last, no indication in the power itself. Only duration: Special... all other "special duration powers are pretty much always on). I have to assume it is "at will" which is pretty insane.)

And now for the main course:
WHY on earth do player spirits (and AI) get less than the NPC-versions of them? ALL spirit types get added attribute points, (AI's too). But player characters somehow are capped at their force and have no penalties or boni like they SHOULD have. Most Spirits have between +3 to +8 bonus total. Giving them what they DESERVE woul alleviate the "damn they are so weak" in lower force levels.

[pbangarth]

Again, you don't need skills. Just Edge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You have plenty of crazy, unmatchable powers.

The Spirit Powers available to Free Spirits are rarely considered in the claims that Free Spirit PCs are 'wimps'. Just part of the powers available to my 750 karma Free Spirit PC (Force 6, Edge 6) are Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Mutable Form.

Think for a few minutes what flexibility just those three powers in concert give her, particularly when her Disguise Skill (which pool is boosted by her Edge because of Mutable Form) is added into the consideration.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The Spirit Powers available to Free Spirits are rarely considered in the claims that Free Spirit PCs are 'wimps'. Just part of the powers available to my 750 karma Free Spirit PC (Force 6, Edge 6) are Aura Masking, Realistic Form and Mutable Form.

Think for a few minutes what flexibility just those three powers in concert give her, particularly when her Disguise Skill (which pool is boosted by her Edge because of Mutable Form) is added into the consideration.

Indeed... some of the Same powers that I have for my Free Spirit as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Sounds like a good way to make the broken 'super' interpretation of Free Spirits vastly worse, Summerstorm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Free Spirits aren't Great Form… I'm not even sure it's possible for them to be (NPC or PC). Possibly an invoker could do it if they first bound the free spirit with its formula?

[kzt]

Step 0: Buy Free Spirit (250 points)
Step 1: Buy Force 5. (30 points)

Step 2 is buy Body 5, Agility 5, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Charisma 5, Intuition 5, Logic 5 and Willpower 5 so your have the required minimums in all your stats. That requires 240 points of the 120 points you have left.

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

I have no idea what the writer/editor was trying to say, but the rule either means that increasing force means you automatically increase all your stats (which kind of makes sense for 250 points) or it means that any time you increase force you have to pay to increase all your stats.

[Epicedion]

Step 2 is buy Body 5, Agility 5, Reaction 5, Strength 5, Charisma 5, Intuition 5, Logic 5 and Willpower 5 so your have the required minimums in all your stats. That requires 240 points of the 120 points you have left.

That's simply absurd.

"Free spirits have a Force special attribute that starts with a rating of 2. This attribute determines a free spirit’s natural minimums and maximums for all attributes. It also acts as the spirit’s Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation."

I have no idea what the writer/editor was trying to say, but the rule either means that increasing force means you automatically increase all your stats (which kind of makes sense for 250 points) or it means that any time you increase force you have to pay to increase all your stats.

No, the line you're focusing on does not say in any way how Force determines the natural minimum, just that it does. It explicitly states later that Force = natural maximum, taking care of that one, but it never goes back to address the minimum. It goes on to state that all attributes start at 2 at the beginning of character generation, which implies that all attributes have a minimum of 2 (which implies that the minimum Force for the spirit is also the natural minimum for all other attributes). It never suggests that all attributes are always equal to Force, as it explicitly states with Magic. If it were going to be that simple it would say something like, "Free Spirits have a special Force attribute that starts at a rating of 2. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. All of a spirit's Physical, Mental, Magic, Edge, and Essence attributes are equal to its current Force."

I can't stop anyone from trying to win the "who can give this paragraph the most obtuse spin imaginable" award, but I don't see any sense in abandoning reason just to prove a point. Everyone already knows it's badly written. The words aren't magically going to rearrange themselves, so you just have to make do with what you have.

The section should read, for clarity:

Free Spirits have a special Force attribute that starts with a rating of 2, which also acts as the spirit's Magic attribute. Force increases can be purchased at character generation for the same price as any attribute. The natural maximum for the Force attribute is 6, although this can be later increased through initiation. In addition, free spirits have the same Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes as metahuman characters, which all start at 2 at the start of character generation. The spirit's Force rating serves as the natural maximum for its Physical, Mental, and Edge attributes.

All I did was remove one sentence that contained no explicit information, and then I cleaned up the style.

[Irion]

The rules are not written so badly.
If you read the rules with the purpose to play with them, there is no problem.
Yes, you are able to start an argument by introducing the rules from streetmagic into the mix (rules which should not exist in the first place).

If you just read the rules out of RC it is obvious, that the interpretation of Epicedion is the correct one.
Yes, you could argue otherwise, but this to be considered everywhere.
You could also argue, that laserweapons do not allow for a reaction test, because they hit you with the speed of light, so you do not have a possibility to dodge.

WHY on earth do player spirits (and AI) get less than the NPC-versions of them? ALL spirit types get added attribute points, (AI's too). But player characters somehow are capped at their force and have no penalties or boni like they SHOULD have. Most Spirits have between +3 to +8 bonus total. Giving them what they DESERVE woul alleviate the "damn they are so weak" in lower force levels.

Simple: Because you do not need to balance NPCs in any way. It is absurd.
If you want an NPC Überspirit, you just give him the powers/stats you want. It is not important if he would need 700 or 7000 Karma to pay for those. You won't use Karma anyway. So what the hell?
(This is part of the reason I do not get the rules for NPC free spirits)
A PC free spirit on the other hand has to be comparable to his or her teammates. So if you start to have a Überspirit right out of Karma Gen, then it is not fair compared to other players.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't even, Irion. The rules are *incredibly* badly-written. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Summerstorm]

Why an "Überspirit"? Nah i just want them to have the modifiers they should have.

For example an air-spirit no matter what tradition or force is ALWAYS a lot faster than an earth spirit. But much less resilient and strong. why are ALL (player) free spirits the same. And the same WEAK (just with pure attributes of course). The origin, purpose, "race" and such of an free spirit should be an issue. And also EVERYTHING in existance has mostly boni. Trolls, Elves, Orcs, Drakes, Infected, PIXIES (EUGH...), and everything. The only one who have no natural boost-up are the humans... which make up in readily available access to technology.

I am not talking like the +8 like some the primordial spirits in the Running Wild. But more something like "-1,+2, +2, -1" or something Maybe providing a list of "sets" the player can choose for his spirits (so like choosing to have 2 small penalties for two good boni or just one penality-one bonus or huge penalty for two good boni etc. ? Re-arranging a few of his attributes penalties and boni. But overall: Yeah, a few points overall should be ADDED.

Can i also add that the "friendship" pact is HORRIBLY bad. I would rather leech my karma from somewhere... but for powergaming reasons player-Free spirits can't get a karma-syphoning power. But i still think they should easily be able to "receive" karma. The good old "pay me in LIFE" is a universal truth when working with spirits.

Hm, reading all the spirit stuff makes me want to make a character... Also thinking: Plasteel is just fiber-glassed-steel something. I can build a MUCH tougher homunculous. I am thinking more in tungsten and titanium alloys, some mallable sheeting. Wearing a strength-enhanced milspec armour... bwahaaha (sorry.... i am calming down now)

[Irion]

I am not talking like the +8 like some the primordial spirits in the Running Wild. But more something like "-1,+2, +2, -1" or something Maybe providing a list of "sets" the player can choose for his spirits (so like choosing to have 2 small penalties for two good boni or just one penality-one bonus or huge penalty for two good boni etc. ? Re-arranging a few of his attributes penalties and boni. But overall: Yeah, a few points overall should be ADDED.

So everything would be more complicated.
For example: What would be the aug. max.? Force *1.5 oder (Force+ Attribute mod)* 1.5.
Would the attribute Mod count as natrual or as augmented?

@Yerameyahu
I disagree considering the attributes. Some powers are strange. Friendship pact, realistic form and Aura masking come in mind.

[Summerstorm]

So everything would be more complicated.
For example: What would be the aug. max.? Force *1.5 oder (Force+ Attribute mod)* 1.5.
Would the attribute Mod count as natrual or as augmented?

Things get only complicated when you MAKE them complicated. They would be racial mods. And of course the "Force=maximum natural Attribute" rule would have to be rewritten as to accomidate for this. Mental attributes of course will be untouched.

I am giving a concrete example.

Bob makes a free spirit character. He decides that his character is a weakened free spirit, which broke free after his master died in a fight. He himself is was a guardian spirit.
(A guardian Spirit normaly has a whopping B+1, A+2, R+3, S+2)
So he consultates the provided list (not provided *g*) and chooses the "roundabout all positives Set" with +1,+1,+2,+1 over other sets like the "Behemoth +4,-2,-2,+4" or "The lightweigth -2,+3,+4,-2" These mods are "racial" attribute points for min and max, and are used under the same rules.

(Note : These "Sets" or the rules to set up yopur own boni have to be playtested and checked before. Reaction and agility are normaly more "worth" than strength, excessive bonis to one value are more worth than lower ones too more etc.)

I am just proposing something like this because:

1. While powers and abilities are fun... most people would like to roll some dice sometimes too.
2. Nearly ALL, but the frailed, weakest spirits do have higher attributes than force. You don't say to the players: AND you are the frailes, weakest kind of spirit. You are playing a kickass entity with the seed of greatness. You don't need to be a Force 12 free Spirit to be as strong as a force 6 earth elemental... if you already ARE and were concentrated on MIGHT. Feels bad.
3. On lower forces and with stating attributes they NEED the boost only magical improvements are available, and they can't bind foci to sustain that. All other races can get their fix somewhere.

I am not saying that ALL character types have to be equal (well, i would even say i am pretty much against that in every form), wherever and whatever they do. But a bit nudge here and there is just vital to have people REALLY enjoy their characters.

EDIT:
Ah and i wopuld like the same for AI's too (There it is the mental attributes of course). It is even more blatant with them: NO chance of improvement, extremely low ceiling (i would let them raise ANYTHING over 6 in my game though.) and blatant informations: NPC Metasapients have clearly a +1 Cha and +1 Wil as per "Unwired". Other Types have different, and more extra-points.

[Irion]

@Summerstorm

Bob makes a free spirit character. He decides that his character is a weakened free spirit, which broke free after his master died in a fight. He himself is was a guardian spirit.
(A guardian Spirit normaly has a whopping B+1, A+2, R+3, S+2)
So he consultates the provided list (not provided *g*) and chooses the "roundabout all positives Set" with +1,+1,+2,+1 over other sets like the "Behemoth +4,-2,-2,+4" or "The lightweigth -2,+3,+4,-2" These mods are "racial" attribute points for min and max, and are used under the same rules.

(Note : These "Sets" or the rules to set up yopur own boni have to be playtested and checked before. Reaction and agility are normaly more "worth" than strength, excessive bonis to one value are more worth than lower ones too more etc.)

Well, the acutal ruling is much easier. And here we are stuck with an other question. If you would take the Behemoth set, your agility and reaction would drop to zero. So you would need to invest BP to get them to 1 or not? Or would it only cap, the maximum and your minimum would stay 2?

I am just proposing something like this because:

1. While powers and abilities are fun... most people would like to roll some dice sometimes too.

So every Metahuman should have access to spirit powers equal to the edge attribute?

2. Nearly ALL, but the frailed, weakest spirits do have higher attributes than force. You don't say to the players: AND you are the frailes, weakest kind of spirit. You are playing a kickass entity with the seed of greatness. You don't need to be a Force 12 free Spirit to be as strong as a force 6 earth elemental... if you already ARE and were concentrated on MIGHT. Feels bad.

But a spell on yourself and you will get it too.

3. On lower forces and with stating attributes they NEED the boost only magical improvements are available, and they can't bind foci to sustain that. All other races can get their fix somewhere.

So what? They are still a valid and good choice. Even superior.

[Yerameyahu]

As we've said, Free Spirits aren't anything like normal characters. They've got powers literally no one can get, and all kinds of innate advantages (including, I forgot to list earlier, no-penalty astral sight at all times). Yes, they also have a couple unique disadvantages (no simsense/AR/etc.), and they don't have stats and skills like a normal character. That's fine, cuz they're *not* normal characters. Almost any effort you make to make them normal will only further imbalance them; tradeoffs to prevent that would only make them less spiritlike.