Magical Abilities/Skills Vs. Exclusive Actions Options

[Lilt]

This topic is about what counts as a 'Magical Abilities/Skills' and what dosen't. There is a nice list of what counts as an exclusive action on P162, SR3, but no well-defined list of what activities count as magical and what don't.

The reason I started this thread was that I was wondering if a mage who has posessed someone counts as participating in a continuous magical ability. IE: Whilst posessing someone, is it possible to cast exclusive-limited spells, quicken spells, use Conjuring, call an elemental to appear, ETC?

Looking at the description of the posession metamagic, it simply states that the character can use magic whilst posessing. It is also possible to use any physical critter powers of the individual, some of which may be exclusive (mist-form for example). Posession does feel somewhat magical, but so does Astral Perception and IIRC that was ruled to not count as a magical ability for the purposes of exclusiveness. Also:

[ Spoiler ]

In the 2nd book of the Dragon Heart Saga, Lethe uses conjuring to banish a blood spirit whilst posessing Burnout.

Lastly: It states that it is possible to deliberately mask the aura of the being they are posessing. As deliberate masking is an exclusive action, that implies that exclusive actions are possible whilst posessing.

Anyone else want to share their thoughts on this?

[Jason Farlander]

It doesnt matter whether using possession metamagic is, by itself, a continuous magical ability. You have to be astrally projecting in order to posess someone... and astral projection is, I believe, a continuous magical ability for the purposes of using exclusive spells, conjuring, and so on.

Deliberate masking is specifically allowed, but exclusive spellcasting and conjuring are not explicitly allowed... so I would say no.

[Zazen]

[John Campbell]

By the letter of the rules, it's impossible to stop astrally projecting. Ending astral projection is an exclusive action, and therefore cannot be done while performing an ongoing magical action... such as astral projection.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Easy there fellas. Projecting is an exclusice action as in, leaving your body and entering astral space. You can cast and maintain spells just fine once you're in astral space, you're not considered "sustaining" the projection as an eclusive magical action.

Right? Or is the entire projection considered exclusive?

Kong

[Kanada Ten]

Not exclusive, just preclusive of exclusive actions.

All "ongoing magical activities" preclude exclusive actions (like sustaining a spell precludes projecting, conjuring, ect).

[Sunday_Gamer]

Well see now that corrects a mistake I made whereas I thought it was possible to summon spirits while projecting. So no watchers either eh?

Kong

[Lilt]

Nope. So-far the list of magical actions which precludes exclusive actions stands at:
Astral Projection
Sustaining a Spell
Using a Magical Skill (Including Sorcery for Spell Defence)

And there are a few things I'm not sure about:
Engaging/Ending Astral Perception (IE: can you sustain an exclusive spell whilst performing these actions)
Calling a nature spirit from standby (It's not exclusive like an elemental, but is it still a magical action?)
Channeling Metamagic (P109, Target: Awakened Lands, similar to posession but instead you draw a spirit into yourself and become 1337)

@Jason Farlander: Maybe so, but many people consider the act of projection to have stopped once a body has been posessed. As I pointed-out earlier, it's not only possible to use deliberate masking but you can use all critter and adept powers of the target, some of which may be exclusive. Would using these powers preclude the use of magical abilities by the posessor? If so how-come it is possible to use them whilst performing a magical activity? (Twitch, crack, tinkle... Now look what you've done! There went my brain!)

@Zazen: Not entierly true on the second part. The posessor is a dual being. Dual beings are not constantly astrally perceiving, they are all capible of it though.

[Mardegun]

woa, hold up 'Sustaining a Spell' is not a exclusive action.

Casting a spell for a sustaining focus is a exclusive action.

From looking at this table it looks pretty clear, that exclusive actions are possible once a person is in astral space. It is just the entering and leaving astral space that is exclusive.

And in regards to possession I would say that it is not an exclusive action to maintain the body. After all the mage basically posses his own meat body, when not in astral space.

The way I see it, is that once the mage is in the body he is in there to stay ... he is anchored in. It is the job of the victim to get him out The mundane world equivalent is a unwanted house guest. The hard part for the guest is getting in, but once in it is clear sailing.

[Zazen]

[Darkest Angel]

I think there's some confusion here as to what's "Exclusive" and what "Precludes the use of Exclusive".

Exclusive actions are:
Using Conjuring for Conjuring, Bannishing and Controlling
Casting an Exclusive Spell
Begining or Ending Astral Projection
Casting a Sustained Spell into a Sustaining Focus
Quickening
Deliberate Masking
Ritual Sorcery
Calling Elementals

Things that prevent exclusive actions are:
Using any magical skill including metamagics, with the exception of Centering
Sustaining a Spell
Allocating Spell Defence

Naturally, this list would include the use of Aura Reading in Assensing, as well as Possession. However, Quickening sets precedent for an Exclusive Action that requires Astral Perception, as does Bannishing Aparitions, Watchers and Shedim. With that in mind, I'd personally say you can use astral perception with Exclusive acts, but any attempt to actively assense and aura precludes you from taking an Exclusive action.

I think the important thing to do is to seperate 'Astral Perception' from 'Assenssing'.

WRT Possession, it's a tough call, but I can see where the possession of a willing possessee, since it does not impede the magician, would allow the use of Exclusive actions. However, possessing an unwilling possessee does require a concious effort to control, and will prevent the use of exclusive actions.

[Lilt]

Shapeshifters are dual beings, but even they swich perception between physical and astral.

@Darkest Angel: That distinction is what this thread is about, and there is nothing I can find that says exclusive actions preclude the use of all metamagical techniques but centering.

[A Clockwork Lime]

No they don't. It's constant in both, and they suffer no penalty.

[Lilt]

Then why does it take them a simple action to use astral perception as per P36, SRComp?

[Zazen]

[Lilt]

In any case, if they must spend a simple action to astrally percieve then they are not astrally percieveing all the time thus they can banish :P

[Darkest Angel]

[Zazen]

Like I said, they are astrally percieving all the time according to just about every other book that mentions the subject. The SRComp is just weird.

And it's not like there is any other unclear writing in that book that spawns huge debate threads. Like maybe even on the same page ;)

[Zazen]

[Darkest Angel]

But if you take it that way, then there was no point in YOTC stipulating explicitly that you could make a second banishing attempt to get rid of Shedim once and for all, or MitS saying anything about banishing Aparitions.

To me, I think the intent was as it was put with Quickening, Astral Perception makes manipulating mana easier, and thus doesn't prevent you from conducting Exclusive actions.

[Zazen]

Well the core book says specifically that you can't banish while percieving, regardless of it being exclusive or whatever. ("Banishing is not possible while astrally projecting or percieving" is the precise quote)

I guess there's some contradiction here. I'd honestly never even looked at apparitions before, and still don't have a clue about shedim.

[Cochise]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Dual-beings aren't always assensing (ie, making an Astral Perception Test). They are, however, fully cognizant of the astral plane and are consistantly seeing both the real world and the astral plane. It's natural for them, however, and shouldn't count as a magical action, especially since completely mundane (but dual-natured) characters can do it.

The Simple Action required of Shapeshifters to assense an aura or whatnot is exactly the same as making a detailed Perception Test in the mundane world (which also requires a Simple Action; Observe in Detail). And just like for everyone in the physical world, that doesn't mean they're blind to the world around them while not "perceiving."

[Sunday_Gamer]

*head spins*

Dizzy monkey... dizzy...monkey.

Okay, so, compeltely dodging the shapeshifting thread and returning to exclusive actions and preclusions of skills...

Bear with me, trying to get this straight.

An exclusive action: A magical action which demands you be involved with no other magical action.

Projecting, Summoning, Banishing, Casting an Exclusive Spell.

So you cannot be sustaining a spell and then Project or Summon or Banish anything.

Astral projection is the only one in the bunch that has a duration, you leave your body and there you are.

While projecting, you are considered involved in an exclusive action? This is where the monkey's head start to spin. How is that possible? Can you cast spells while performing an exclusive action?!? Now this ONLY applies to projection since everything else is fire and forget. That can't be right. If sustaining a projection is considered an exclusive action does that not mean casting spells while projecting isn't possible?

I keep my SR books at my GMs place and days like these, it gives me a headache... someone explain before I experience terminal failure of the monkey.

Kong

[Herald of Verjig...]