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Lilt
This topic is about what counts as a 'Magical Abilities/Skills' and what dosen't. There is a nice list of what counts as an exclusive action on P162, SR3, but no well-defined list of what activities count as magical and what don't.

The reason I started this thread was that I was wondering if a mage who has posessed someone counts as participating in a continuous magical ability. IE: Whilst posessing someone, is it possible to cast exclusive-limited spells, quicken spells, use Conjuring, call an elemental to appear, ETC?

Looking at the description of the posession metamagic, it simply states that the character can use magic whilst posessing. It is also possible to use any physical critter powers of the individual, some of which may be exclusive (mist-form for example). Posession does feel somewhat magical, but so does Astral Perception and IIRC that was ruled to not count as a magical ability for the purposes of exclusiveness. Also:
[ Spoiler ]


Lastly: It states that it is possible to deliberately mask the aura of the being they are posessing. As deliberate masking is an exclusive action, that implies that exclusive actions are possible whilst posessing.

Anyone else want to share their thoughts on this?
Jason Farlander
It doesnt matter whether using possession metamagic is, by itself, a continuous magical ability. You have to be astrally projecting in order to posess someone... and astral projection is, I believe, a continuous magical ability for the purposes of using exclusive spells, conjuring, and so on.

Deliberate masking is specifically allowed, but exclusive spellcasting and conjuring are not explicitly allowed... so I would say no.
Zazen
QUOTE (Lilt)
Lastly: It states that it is possible to deliberately mask the aura of the being they are posessing. As deliberate masking is an exclusive action, that implies that exclusive actions are possible whilst posessing.

I let people do pretty much whatever they want while possessing, and I'm glad to hear of evidence that this is intended.

Oddly enough, though, Banishing should not be allowed by a possesser at all according to canon. Banishing cannot occur when a character is percieving, and a possessing character is always percieving. Most people ignore this dumb rule, though.
John Campbell
By the letter of the rules, it's impossible to stop astrally projecting. Ending astral projection is an exclusive action, and therefore cannot be done while performing an ongoing magical action... such as astral projection.
Sunday_Gamer
Easy there fellas. Projecting is an exclusice action as in, leaving your body and entering astral space. You can cast and maintain spells just fine once you're in astral space, you're not considered "sustaining" the projection as an eclusive magical action.

Right? Or is the entire projection considered exclusive?

Kong
Kanada Ten
Not exclusive, just preclusive of exclusive actions.

All "ongoing magical activities" preclude exclusive actions (like sustaining a spell precludes projecting, conjuring, ect).
Sunday_Gamer
Well see now that corrects a mistake I made whereas I thought it was possible to summon spirits while projecting. So no watchers either eh?

Kong
Lilt
Nope. So-far the list of magical actions which precludes exclusive actions stands at:
Astral Projection
Sustaining a Spell
Using a Magical Skill (Including Sorcery for Spell Defence)

And there are a few things I'm not sure about:
Engaging/Ending Astral Perception (IE: can you sustain an exclusive spell whilst performing these actions)
Calling a nature spirit from standby (It's not exclusive like an elemental, but is it still a magical action?)
Channeling Metamagic (P109, Target: Awakened Lands, similar to posession but instead you draw a spirit into yourself and become 1337)

@Jason Farlander: Maybe so, but many people consider the act of projection to have stopped once a body has been posessed. As I pointed-out earlier, it's not only possible to use deliberate masking but you can use all critter and adept powers of the target, some of which may be exclusive. Would using these powers preclude the use of magical abilities by the posessor? If so how-come it is possible to use them whilst performing a magical activity? (Twitch, crack, tinkle... Now look what you've done! There went my brain!)

@Zazen: Not entierly true on the second part. The posessor is a dual being. Dual beings are not constantly astrally perceiving, they are all capible of it though.
Mardegun
woa, hold up 'Sustaining a Spell' is not a exclusive action.

Casting a spell for a sustaining focus is a exclusive action.

From looking at this table it looks pretty clear, that exclusive actions are possible once a person is in astral space. It is just the entering and leaving astral space that is exclusive.

And in regards to possession I would say that it is not an exclusive action to maintain the body. After all the mage basically posses his own meat body, when not in astral space.

The way I see it, is that once the mage is in the body he is in there to stay ... he is anchored in. It is the job of the victim to get him out The mundane world equivalent is a unwanted house guest. The hard part for the guest is getting in, but once in it is clear sailing.
Zazen
QUOTE (Lilt)
@Zazen: Not entierly true on the second part. The posessor is a dual being. Dual beings are not constantly astrally perceiving, they are all capible of it though.

Perception is pretty much the definition of a dual being, according to the core book.
Darkest Angel
I think there's some confusion here as to what's "Exclusive" and what "Precludes the use of Exclusive".

Exclusive actions are:
Using Conjuring for Conjuring, Bannishing and Controlling
Casting an Exclusive Spell
Begining or Ending Astral Projection
Casting a Sustained Spell into a Sustaining Focus
Quickening
Deliberate Masking
Ritual Sorcery
Calling Elementals

Things that prevent exclusive actions are:
Using any magical skill including metamagics, with the exception of Centering
Sustaining a Spell
Allocating Spell Defence

Naturally, this list would include the use of Aura Reading in Assensing, as well as Possession. However, Quickening sets precedent for an Exclusive Action that requires Astral Perception, as does Bannishing Aparitions, Watchers and Shedim. With that in mind, I'd personally say you can use astral perception with Exclusive acts, but any attempt to actively assense and aura precludes you from taking an Exclusive action.

I think the important thing to do is to seperate 'Astral Perception' from 'Assenssing'.

WRT Possession, it's a tough call, but I can see where the possession of a willing possessee, since it does not impede the magician, would allow the use of Exclusive actions. However, possessing an unwilling possessee does require a concious effort to control, and will prevent the use of exclusive actions.
Lilt
Shapeshifters are dual beings, but even they swich perception between physical and astral.

@Darkest Angel: That distinction is what this thread is about, and there is nothing I can find that says exclusive actions preclude the use of all metamagical techniques but centering.
A Clockwork Lime
No they don't. It's constant in both, and they suffer no penalty.
Lilt
Then why does it take them a simple action to use astral perception as per P36, SRComp?
Zazen
QUOTE (Lilt)
Shapeshifters are dual beings, but even they swich perception between physical and astral.

I know the text you're talking about, and the simple action it refers to is, to the best of my ability to reason, an "observe in detail" action. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence elsewhere in the books that says that dual beings are in fact always astrally percieving.
Lilt
In any case, if they must spend a simple action to astrally percieve then they are not astrally percieveing all the time thus they can banish nyahnyah.gif
Darkest Angel
QUOTE (Lilt)
Shapeshifters are dual beings, but even they swich perception between physical and astral.

@Darkest Angel: That distinction is what this thread is about, and there is nothing I can find that says exclusive actions preclude the use of all metamagical techniques but centering.

How about the sentence in SR3:
QUOTE
"These feats require great concentration and cannot be performed while using any other magical skill or maintaining any other magical ability."


Pretty decisive I think.

The only noted exceptions is, as I pointed out, Centering which helps magic use.

The only canon grey area is Astral Perception, whereby a magical ability is being maintained, but is required for Quickening, and Bannishing Shedim, Watchers, Aparitions and other spirits who are unable to manifest.

Possession should be a clear cut 'no', but I can see where some GMs may make exceptions.

I believe the Shapeshifter reference refers to 'Assenssing', rather than basic astral perception. The two are frequently, and wrongly interchanged a lot for some reason.
Zazen
Like I said, they are astrally percieving all the time according to just about every other book that mentions the subject. The SRComp is just weird.

And it's not like there is any other unclear writing in that book that spawns huge debate threads. Like maybe even on the same page wink.gif
Zazen
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
... but is required for Quickening, and Bannishing Shedim, Watchers, Aparitions and other spirits who are unable to manifest.

Remember that you can't Banish while perceiving, so you can't ever Banish watchers and other astral-only spirits, technically speaking.

I ignore that rule but replace it with what I feel is the intent of the rule: the spirit must be materialized. Banishing seems to be a sort of control over the physical plane, which I think is the reason for making it usable only while purely physical. The astral may be a spirits home, but the physical is ours and when they stick their foot in our doorway we've got the power to slam it on them.
Darkest Angel
But if you take it that way, then there was no point in YOTC stipulating explicitly that you could make a second banishing attempt to get rid of Shedim once and for all, or MitS saying anything about banishing Aparitions.

To me, I think the intent was as it was put with Quickening, Astral Perception makes manipulating mana easier, and thus doesn't prevent you from conducting Exclusive actions.
Zazen
Well the core book says specifically that you can't banish while percieving, regardless of it being exclusive or whatever. ("Banishing is not possible while astrally projecting or percieving" is the precise quote)

I guess there's some contradiction here. I'd honestly never even looked at apparitions before, and still don't have a clue about shedim.
Cochise
QUOTE (Darkest Angel)
But if you take it that way, then there was no point in YOTC stipulating explicitly that you could make a second banishing attempt to get rid of Shedim once and for all, or MitS saying anything about banishing Aparitions.

Or the point is, that normal mages just cannot banish Shedim or Aparitions for good, while Dragons (or other naturally dual natured beings) with magical skills can ...
A Clockwork Lime
Dual-beings aren't always assensing (ie, making an Astral Perception Test). They are, however, fully cognizant of the astral plane and are consistantly seeing both the real world and the astral plane. It's natural for them, however, and shouldn't count as a magical action, especially since completely mundane (but dual-natured) characters can do it.

The Simple Action required of Shapeshifters to assense an aura or whatnot is exactly the same as making a detailed Perception Test in the mundane world (which also requires a Simple Action; Observe in Detail). And just like for everyone in the physical world, that doesn't mean they're blind to the world around them while not "perceiving."
Sunday_Gamer
*head spins*

Dizzy monkey... dizzy...monkey.

Okay, so, compeltely dodging the shapeshifting thread and returning to exclusive actions and preclusions of skills...

Bear with me, trying to get this straight.

An exclusive action: A magical action which demands you be involved with no other magical action.

Projecting, Summoning, Banishing, Casting an Exclusive Spell.

So you cannot be sustaining a spell and then Project or Summon or Banish anything.

Astral projection is the only one in the bunch that has a duration, you leave your body and there you are.

While projecting, you are considered involved in an exclusive action? This is where the monkey's head start to spin. How is that possible? Can you cast spells while performing an exclusive action?!? Now this ONLY applies to projection since everything else is fire and forget. That can't be right. If sustaining a projection is considered an exclusive action does that not mean casting spells while projecting isn't possible?

I keep my SR books at my GMs place and days like these, it gives me a headache... someone explain before I experience terminal failure of the monkey.

Kong
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Sunday_Gamer)
While projecting, you are considered involved in an exclusive action?

No. The act to project is exclusive. We had a very similar debate in reference to vampires and mist form. You do not get sustaining modifiers from projecting, nor does it count as a perpetual exclusive action.
Sunday_Gamer
So then you can do whatever you want except another exclusive action since being exclusive, it precludes you're physical?

Meaning that one could not summon, cast exclusive spells while projecting but one could certainly cast spell that are not exclusive.

That about right?

Kong

Slightly less dizzy monkey.
Lilt
@Sunday: That sounds about right. You can only perform one exclusive action at once. You cannot perform magical and exclusive actions at the same time.

Essentially there are 4 classes to consider:
  1. Exclusive Actions/Activities: Conjuring, Casting/Sustaining an exclusive Spell, Initiating/ending projection, ETC
  2. Magical Actions: Casting a spell, Aura reading, ETC
  3. Magical Activities: Whilst providing spell Defense, Whilst Sustaining a spell, Whilst Projecting, ETC
  4. None of the above: Whilst Percieving (possibly, by some people it counts as a magical activity)

Whilst performing a 1, it is impossible to perform any other 1. You cannot perform any 2s or 3s whilst performing 1s, or 1s whilst performing 2s or 3s... I've just confused you more haven't I? nyahnyah.gif

The question is wether the duration of a Posession counts as an ongoing Magical Activity or not. AFAIK the arguments are that:
A) It is a metamagical technique, performed during a magical activity, thus during posession it counts as maintaining a magial ability. Whilst it states that you are allowed to perform some exclusive actions, these are exceptions rather than the norm.
B) During posession, you are not actually maintaining anything. You are no-longer technically projecting, and the stress on your magical ability isn't as great as projection or spell sustaining. It also allows you to perform a number of exclusive activities, implying that it isn't that hard to do.

(If anyone has any corrections to these arguments then please correct me)

On Dual beings: Assensing is not synonymous with Astral perception, it is a separate sense/action which is only possible whilst percieving/projecting. I would also question wether any dual-natured person can be considered completely mundane, they may have no magic attribute but nor do any of the 'awakened' critters capible of using magical powers. They can also learn the Aura Reading skill, a magical skill, implying that they are not mundane (assuming the "Dual Natured" surge effect is anything to go by).
A Clockwork Lime
No, Aura Reading does not require any magical ability to obtain. Anyone can learn it, unlike Sorcery or Conjuring. Astral Perception is an ability most magicial characters possess (excluding most adepts), but it itself is not magical. Likewise, perfectly mundane characters can become dual-natured, such as SURGE Changelings -- and yes, a Magic Attribute of 0 is pretty much the definition of a mundane metahuman.

And I'm fully aware that Assensing is not synonymous with Astral Perception, and the context of the Shapeshifter's "Dual Nature" section is a reference to assensing, not Astral Perception itself (it's just poor wording). Just about every other source on dual-natured creatures clarifies that. Page 5 of Critters is easily the authority on dual-beings, and it clearly states that all dual-beings are astrally perceiving at all times.

And again, since being dual-natured is their natural state of being, it shouldn't count as a magical ability for purposes of Exclusive Actions since they are, in fact, not performing any magical action whatsoever. The fact that they can astrally project -- an Exclusive magical action -- more than demonstrates this.
Lilt
Except that the aura reading skill is still officially a magical skill, and any dual being with magical skills can astrally project (P260, SR3), and astral projection is a continuous magical activity, thus any dual-natured being can have magical ability even if you don't consider astral perception or the aura reading skill to be proof.gif. nyahnyah.gif
(I should really stop playing shouldn't I?)

As for the reference to Assensing in the SRComp, I find it far more likely that it is refering to the 'observe in detail' simple action as someone already suggested.
Darkest Angel
I think we've pretty much established that the SRC mention of Astral Perception is not the same as the SR3 action of Shift Perception.

However, I think the implication in the paragraph 'Astral Conjuring' Pg 189 SR3, is that banishing is an exception to whether exclusive actions are possible while perceiving, as it is not as explicit when it deals with other uses of conjuring.
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