[X] My Assistant

[whatevs]

So i have a choice, either control thoughts (or emotions) or the influence spell. My character is a mage/ face with high cha. I like the influence spell because it seems effective but subtle, but control emotions gives huge bonuses during social situations directly. Any thoughts on this? Any examples of one being better for a face character in play?

[TheOOB]

Learn all 3, use each when neccesary.

[Manunancy]

Whatever your pick of spell, keep in mind that spellcasting during a social circumstance is frowned upon. In some settings (say a meeting with a resonably powerfull mobster), it can even lead to summary execution as the security won't wait for the spell to take effect before moving in to protect their principal.

Making a regular use of those spells can also grant the character a very bad repute as a manipulative mind-twister who's better interacted with through videoconference and others mana-proof mediums. Or more simply kept away with some sort of security drone delivering the message (though luck influencing it's 'mind' trhough magic).

[Blade]

To me, Influence is much more powerful than the others since it doesn't suffer from the same limitations and can do pretty much the same thing.

[Nifft]

Influence is awesome, but with a high Charisma and some Leadership or Negotiation or Intimidate you can emulate its effects for free.

I'd take Mob Mood, because IMHO that's going to open up your options in more situations.

[Snow_Fox]

I agree good social skills/role playing can cover a lot of influence. If I need to be so direct that I mess with someone's mind directly I want to be sure it's going to work.

That's if you only choose 1, but both do have their uses.

[Summerstorm]

Hm... how can ANY social skill cover "Influence"?

The way i see it: Influence is AWESOME for creating either a Sleeper or have someone perform one Task for you, which he will carry out the best of his abilities.
Great "Influences" are:

Submit all your reports ALSO to the com-number you found slipped under your door.
When you see a man with a red rose in his hand, let him and all his companions into whatever it is you are guarding. Don't log it or mention it to anybody.
Or just in Combat: You should switch allegiances NOW.

Great things: Spell is PERMANENT. After it is "locked in" the signature of the spell will fade. Impossible to NOT get away with it *g*.
Problems: You have NO idea how competent the victim will do anything... how he will interpret your suggestion... much can go wrong. And it is just ONE task.

Control Thoughts is good for micromanagment, when you need something to be done EXACTLY as you wish... but it will cost you actions, and will be over after a few seconds/minutes.

Control Emotions... is funny, but not really an exact tool. Mob version is better though. You really can't "control" anybody with this. But the reactions you get out of somebody may be more powerful. (They might spend edge for you, you sexy beast *g*)

[whatevs]

Whatever your pick of spell, keep in mind that spellcasting during a social circumstance is frowned upon. In some settings (say a meeting with a resonably powerfull mobster), it can even lead to summary execution as the security won't wait for the spell to take effect before moving in to protect their principal.

Making a regular use of those spells can also grant the character a very bad repute as a manipulative mind-twister who's better interacted with through videoconference and others mana-proof mediums. Or more simply kept away with some sort of security drone delivering the message (though luck influencing it's 'mind' trhough magic).

Totally agree. I've got cha 7 plus influence spell group to deal with mr. J. The spell is more for 1 offs. Examples, combat, infiltration ('You took my keys by mistake Mr. Security guard'), supplement con ('hey troll gang leader, the guy in that knight errand patrol car just said some pretty nasty things about you'). It looks like i'm on the right track with influence, how are social modifiers handled with influence when they come up? I only found control emotions and control thoughts modifiers.

[Thanee]

I find Control Thoughts and Influence both are very good, but for different situations.

Control Thoughts is more useful in "hectic" situations (combat and such), which is why it is my prefered option, usually.

Bye
Thanee

[nezumi]

Don't know what version you're running, but in SR2/3 I see way more use of Control Thoughts than any other. The rules are pretty vague on it, so touch base with your GM first, but from my reading, it's basically giving you a free NPC to use as you wish.

Influence is rather vague, and the only times I've seen it used in combat, it's a bit of a stretch. Control Emotions is even worse, and depends a lot on how the GM interprets emotions affecting a character's actions.

[Mardrax]

Hm... how can ANY social skill cover "Influence"?

The way i see it: Influence is AWESOME for creating either a Sleeper or have someone perform one Task for you, which he will carry out the best of his abilities.
Great "Influences" are:

Submit all your reports ALSO to the com-number you found slipped under your door.
When you see a man with a red rose in his hand, let him and all his companions into whatever it is you are guarding. Don't log it or mention it to anybody.
Or just in Combat: You should switch allegiances NOW.

Great things: Spell is PERMANENT. After it is "locked in" the signature of the spell will fade. Impossible to NOT get away with it *g*.
Problems: You have NO idea how competent the victim will do anything... how he will interpret your suggestion... much can go wrong. And it is just ONE task.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Influence still subject to the rules for mental manipulations, which make it very likely to wear off within a minute or so? Or does the not having to sustain the spell for long somehow cancel this? These uses all seem rather useless, given that.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

I don't have 4A handy, but from 4th Ed:

If confronted with the wrongness of the suggestion, the subject can make a Willpower Test to overcome it as described under Mental Manipulations, p. 202.

So no, not if you're subtle.
Never used it in combat for that reason though.

OTOH, it's a great way to turn the entire Seattle Mafioso incontinent, because how exactly does someone get confronted with the "wrongness" of "I gotta take a leak?"

[Mardrax]

I don't have 4A handy, but from 4th Ed:

Ah yes, of course. 4A says the same.

OTOH, it's a great way to turn the entire Seattle Mafioso incontinent, because how exactly does someone get confronted with the "wrongness" of "I gotta take a leak?"

By finding yourself with an empty bladder?

I've found plenty uses for it in combat though. Even if confronted with the wrongness of the suggestion, the victim may still only resist the spell once every F combat turns, and it takes him a complex action to shrug off. Given that most grunts especially will take two rolls on top of the initial opposed roll, that gives you quite some time to have them doing your single action worth of bidding. Where often a round or maybe two will often be sufficient. "You really want to run for your life" isn't even that wrong in most combats, and several other suggestions could fare just as well.

[Dakka Dakka]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Influence still subject to the rules for mental manipulations, which make it very likely to wear off within a minute or so? Or does the not having to sustain the spell for long somehow cancel this? These uses all seem rather useless, given that.

Well yes, BUT you can only resist a spell that exists. After 2*DV rounds Influence becomes permanent. Afterwards there is no more spell to resist, but the target will still carry out the instruction. Unless my math is off the target gets two resistance rolls before the spell becomes permanent no matter the force.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

By finding yourself with an empty bladder?

Heh...you should chat up some guys with prostate issues.

[Rasumichin]

OTOH, it's a great way to turn the entire Seattle Mafioso incontinent, because how exactly does someone get confronted with the "wrongness" of "I gotta take a leak?"

That depends on how you define "confronted with the wrongness". Depending on circumstances, it might be sufficient if someone says "you just went to the restroom 10 minutes ago, wtf is wrong with your bladder?"
Not that anyone would dare to say something like that to a mafia don's face. Which just shows you how important it is to think about circumstances and to do your research when you cast that particular spell. If you do it right, it's the most resilient control manipulation in the game.
That, combined with it's extreme versatility, makes it my favorite manipulation spell.

[TheOOB]

Influence is a scalpel, control thoughts is a broad sword, use each where each is appropriate, and try not to confuse one for the other.

[Semerkhet]

Totally in my own opinion but I find the "Control <X>" mental manipulations to be not at all fun and highly discourage their use in any game I run. So obviously I vote for Influence. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Inncubi]

I have used Influence, and have had the same used to me as a GM with great effect.

A shaman/face can really use all three spells, like others have advised, in the correct circumstances. However I have seen the best users of tools are those who know when /not/ to use them. Using social skills and charisma will get you places. To those you know you can't reach, use Influence, when caught in said places use Control Thoughts and avoid immediate circumstances.

Control emotions is a very interesting spell:
-Feel deep, horrendous anger with your teammate.
-Panic.
-Love.
-Friendship.
-Loyalty.
-Hatred.
-Jealousy.

Couple it with Ritual Spellcasting and you have a great winner: From afar you are influencing a specific NPC subtly, and after a long time if done well, the real actual emotion might actually grow and flourish. At least, in a game I'd GM, because well, feeling certain emotions without an obvious external influence (read spellcasting mage) they actually might follow through with it.

The great caveat with all of them is: Don't get caught. Because, well, mindrape is that. A horrible act that removes individuality and takes away intellectual freedom, which is, before magic came to the 6th world, the only absolutely inviolate sanctum of a person's freedom.

[Semerkhet]

The great caveat with all of them is: Don't get caught. Because, well, mindrape is that. A horrible act that removes individuality and takes away intellectual freedom, which is, before magic came to the 6th world, the only absolutely inviolate sanctum of a person's freedom.

Agreed 100%. Which is why I mostly will not play Shadowrun with strangers or at conventions. I've seen too many players use Mind Probe and Control Thoughts as their one-stop shop for solving any and all challenges, in and out of combat. I've seen too many GMs enable this behavior by failing to enforce consequences for over-use of such spells.

I didn't ban those spells in my current SR game, I just made the consequences clear and the magician chose not to take them.

[Saint Sithney]

Or just in Combat: You should switch allegiances NOW.

Great things: Spell is PERMANENT.

Does this juxtaposition seem really antithetical to anyone else?

Permanent spells are pretty much the opposite of Now.


Personal favorite: Alter Memory + Influence. Double up for past and future.

[Summerstorm]

Does this juxtaposition seem really antithetical to anyone else?

Permanent spells are pretty much the opposite of Now.


Personal favorite: Alter Memory + Influence. Double up for past and future.

Nah, permanent spells work like sustained ones until they become permanent through sustaining them for a few rounds. I can give a command now. Only if i get interupted (or the spell gets attacked) it won't become permanent of course.

[LurkerOutThere]

A) Avoid taking any of the three
B) Ask your GM to do the smae with the game world
C) Profit

[Rasumichin]

The great caveat with all of them is: Don't get caught. Because, well, mindrape is that. A horrible act that removes individuality and takes away intellectual freedom, which is, before magic came to the 6th world, the only absolutely inviolate sanctum of a person's freedom.

Cognitive liberty is only an absolutely invoalable sanctum as long as a mental institution doesn't force you to take your medication, or you do not wish to chemically alter your consciousness with illicit substances.
This entirely pharmaceutical caveat obviously doesn't have anywhere near the same scope as mind control spells, but there are ways IRL to violate your freedom to live in the state of mind you desire, and they are pretty widespread.

I completely agree on your moral stance regarding these spells, though, they are among the most unethical spells in a mage's grimoire.
I used to play a shaman who dropped them left and right, it eventually came back to haunt him when he initiated and had to pass the threshold to the metaplanes for the first time (which was what i intended for him, a large part of the character's appeal was to roleplay how power corrupts).
Ended up in a replay of an interrogation he had done, viewing it from the perspective of his victim.

[Semerkhet]

I completely agree on your moral stance regarding these spells, though, they are among the most unethical spells in a mage's grimoire.
I used to play a shaman who dropped them left and right, it eventually came back to haunt him when he initiated and had to pass the threshold to the metaplanes for the first time (which was what i intended for him, a large part of the character's appeal was to roleplay how power corrupts).
Ended up in a replay of an interrogation he had done, viewing it from the perspective of his victim.

If a player came to me with the above character concept and seemed sincere about the consequences part, I'd consider allowing it. I'd run it by the other players first because having a magician with a penchant for mind-rape is going to affect all of the characters. If the group seemed receptive, I'd likely allow it.