So i have a choice, either control thoughts (or emotions) or the influence spell. My character is a mage/ face with high cha. I like the influence spell because it seems effective but subtle, but control emotions gives huge bonuses during social situations directly. Any thoughts on this? Any examples of one being better for a face character in play?

Learn all 3, use each when neccesary.

Whatever your pick of spell, keep in mind that spellcasting during a social circumstance is frowned upon. In some settings (say a meeting with a resonably powerfull mobster), it can even lead to summary execution as the security won't wait for the spell to take effect before moving in to protect their principal.

Making a regular use of those spells can also grant the character a very bad repute as a manipulative mind-twister who's better interacted with through videoconference and others mana-proof mediums. Or more simply kept away with some sort of security drone delivering the message (though luck influencing it's 'mind' trhough magic).

To me, Influence is much more powerful than the others since it doesn't suffer from the same limitations and can do pretty much the same thing.

Influence is awesome, but with a high Charisma and some Leadership or Negotiation or Intimidate you can emulate its effects for free.

I'd take Mob Mood, because IMHO that's going to open up your options in more situations.

I agree good social skills/role playing can cover a lot of influence. If I need to be so direct that I mess with someone's mind directly I want to be sure it's going to work.

That's if you only choose 1, but both do have their uses.

Hm... how can ANY social skill cover "Influence"?

The way i see it: Influence is AWESOME for creating either a Sleeper or have someone perform one Task for you, which he will carry out the best of his abilities.
Great "Influences" are:

Submit all your reports ALSO to the com-number you found slipped under your door.
When you see a man with a red rose in his hand, let him and all his companions into whatever it is you are guarding. Don't log it or mention it to anybody.
Or just in Combat: You should switch allegiances NOW.

Great things: Spell is PERMANENT. After it is "locked in" the signature of the spell will fade. Impossible to NOT get away with it *g*.
Problems: You have NO idea how competent the victim will do anything... how he will interpret your suggestion... much can go wrong. And it is just ONE task.

Control Thoughts is good for micromanagment, when you need something to be done EXACTLY as you wish... but it will cost you actions, and will be over after a few seconds/minutes.

Control Emotions... is funny, but not really an exact tool. Mob version is better though. You really can't "control" anybody with this. But the reactions you get out of somebody may be more powerful. (They might spend edge for you, you sexy beast *g*)

Totally agree. I've got cha 7 plus influence spell group to deal with mr. J. The spell is more for 1 offs. Examples, combat, infiltration ('You took my keys by mistake Mr. Security guard'), supplement con ('hey troll gang leader, the guy in that knight errand patrol car just said some pretty nasty things about you'). It looks like i'm on the right track with influence, how are social modifiers handled with influence when they come up? I only found control emotions and control thoughts modifiers.

I find Control Thoughts and Influence both are very good, but for different situations.

Control Thoughts is more useful in "hectic" situations (combat and such), which is why it is my prefered option, usually.

Bye
Thanee

Don't know what version you're running, but in SR2/3 I see way more use of Control Thoughts than any other. The rules are pretty vague on it, so touch base with your GM first, but from my reading, it's basically giving you a free NPC to use as you wish.

Influence is rather vague, and the only times I've seen it used in combat, it's a bit of a stretch. Control Emotions is even worse, and depends a lot on how the GM interprets emotions affecting a character's actions.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't Influence still subject to the rules for mental manipulations, which make it very likely to wear off within a minute or so? Or does the not having to sustain the spell for long somehow cancel this? These uses all seem rather useless, given that.

I don't have 4A handy, but from 4th Ed:

So no, not if you're subtle.
Never used it in combat for that reason though.

OTOH, it's a great way to turn the entire Seattle Mafioso incontinent, because how exactly does someone get confronted with the "wrongness" of "I gotta take a leak?"

Ah yes, of course. 4A says the same.


By finding yourself with an empty bladder?

I've found plenty uses for it in combat though. Even if confronted with the wrongness of the suggestion, the victim may still only resist the spell once every F combat turns, and it takes him a complex action to shrug off. Given that most grunts especially will take two rolls on top of the initial opposed roll, that gives you quite some time to have them doing your single action worth of bidding. Where often a round or maybe two will often be sufficient. "You really want to run for your life" isn't even that wrong in most combats, and several other suggestions could fare just as well.

Well yes, BUT you can only resist a spell that exists. After 2*DV rounds Influence becomes permanent. Afterwards there is no more spell to resist, but the target will still carry out the instruction. Unless my math is off the target gets two resistance rolls before the spell becomes permanent no matter the force.

Heh...you should chat up some guys with prostate issues.

That depends on how you define "confronted with the wrongness". Depending on circumstances, it might be sufficient if someone says "you just went to the restroom 10 minutes ago, wtf is wrong with your bladder?"
Not that anyone would dare to say something like that to a mafia don's face. Which just shows you how important it is to think about circumstances and to do your research when you cast that particular spell. If you do it right, it's the most resilient control manipulation in the game.
That, combined with it's extreme versatility, makes it my favorite manipulation spell.

Influence is a scalpel, control thoughts is a broad sword, use each where each is appropriate, and try not to confuse one for the other.

Totally in my own opinion but I find the "Control <X>" mental manipulations to be not at all fun and highly discourage their use in any game I run. So obviously I vote for Influence.

I have used Influence, and have had the same used to me as a GM with great effect.

A shaman/face can really use all three spells, like others have advised, in the correct circumstances. However I have seen the best users of tools are those who know when /not/ to use them. Using social skills and charisma will get you places. To those you know you can't reach, use Influence, when caught in said places use Control Thoughts and avoid immediate circumstances.

Control emotions is a very interesting spell:
-Feel deep, horrendous anger with your teammate.
-Panic.
-Love.
-Friendship.
-Loyalty.
-Hatred.
-Jealousy.

Couple it with Ritual Spellcasting and you have a great winner: From afar you are influencing a specific NPC subtly, and after a long time if done well, the real actual emotion might actually grow and flourish. At least, in a game I'd GM, because well, feeling certain emotions without an obvious external influence (read spellcasting mage) they actually might follow through with it.

The great caveat with all of them is: Don't get caught. Because, well, mindrape is that. A horrible act that removes individuality and takes away intellectual freedom, which is, before magic came to the 6th world, the only absolutely inviolate sanctum of a person's freedom.

Agreed 100%. Which is why I mostly will not play Shadowrun with strangers or at conventions. I've seen too many players use Mind Probe and Control Thoughts as their one-stop shop for solving any and all challenges, in and out of combat. I've seen too many GMs enable this behavior by failing to enforce consequences for over-use of such spells.

I didn't ban those spells in my current SR game, I just made the consequences clear and the magician chose not to take them.

Does this juxtaposition seem really antithetical to anyone else?

Permanent spells are pretty much the opposite of Now.


Personal favorite: Alter Memory + Influence. Double up for past and future.

Nah, permanent spells work like sustained ones until they become permanent through sustaining them for a few rounds. I can give a command now. Only if i get interupted (or the spell gets attacked) it won't become permanent of course.

A) Avoid taking any of the three
B) Ask your GM to do the smae with the game world
C) Profit

Cognitive liberty is only an absolutely invoalable sanctum as long as a mental institution doesn't force you to take your medication, or you do not wish to chemically alter your consciousness with illicit substances.
This entirely pharmaceutical caveat obviously doesn't have anywhere near the same scope as mind control spells, but there are ways IRL to violate your freedom to live in the state of mind you desire, and they are pretty widespread.

I completely agree on your moral stance regarding these spells, though, they are among the most unethical spells in a mage's grimoire.
I used to play a shaman who dropped them left and right, it eventually came back to haunt him when he initiated and had to pass the threshold to the metaplanes for the first time (which was what i intended for him, a large part of the character's appeal was to roleplay how power corrupts).
Ended up in a replay of an interrogation he had done, viewing it from the perspective of his victim.

If a player came to me with the above character concept and seemed sincere about the consequences part, I'd consider allowing it. I'd run it by the other players first because having a magician with a penchant for mind-rape is going to affect all of the characters. If the group seemed receptive, I'd likely allow it.

Yeah, mind control spells are nasty. The use of drugs to violate cognitive liberty is nasty as well.

There are some differences between the use of drugs and the use of spells, but this actually made me think about a very common mugging system they have here in my country:

-You get into a cab.
-They spray you with scopolamine ("Escopolamina" in spanish), essentially makes you want to agree to whatever they ask of you.
-They go 'round and stop you in every ATM they find, and take away all your money.
-You wake up in a dumpster, naked and with horrible headache, and little memory of the night before (if the dose is high enugh, brain damage can happen. Even death.).

Now, that is bad. Comparable to use of mind control spells to... well, make someone shoot himself, or his mates.

On the other hand, my father is a psychiatrist. I've seen people in horrible depressions, who thanks to anti-depressant drugs are able to work, feel better and lead a life they enjoy. In their own words.

Imagine in a shootout a mage that uses control thoughts to cause fear in his enemies so they run away, and live. Is it more moral than shooting them with guns and/or mana bolts?
How about using it to produce or enhance existing good feelings? (Our team uses the mages Mob Mood every week in a friendship reinforcing meet out, its helped us work out or most horrible problems)
"I am Gillette Sammy, and I've been chromed so badly I no longer feel human emotions, but thanks to my shaman buddy I am better, feeling happy, feeling joy".

I think the consequences of these spells are nasty, used that way. But in another sense they can deffinitely help a team keep a low profile, avoid innocent victims (That crazy grandma is aiming at me with her shotgun, let's make her drop it: cast control actions.).

Now, what I love about Shadowrun is the deeply moral issues it inherently carries. Yes, you can play it like an action shootout, but the best games are where these reasonings are made: What are the consequences of being a shooter for hire? What shade of black his morality is coloured with?

Wow. Wasn't thinking along those lines. I was just going to use influence for warm and fuzzy things (character is a pacifist) like getting security guards to put their own handcuffs on, or convincing kids to eat things off the ground. Maybe even the occassional 'Hey dude, you took my motorcycle keys by mistake., yours are back there somewhere.'

I've always viewed influence as the 'jedi mind trick' spell. Best used to plant a subliminal suggestion in someone already inclined that way. (buy coke, not pepsi to someone going for a drink). There's a lot of 'suggestions' you can give which aren't right or wrong or are just fun.


The only thing I don't like is there's no metamagics or ways to subtly cast it... Because of the perception rules on spellcasting you need to be far away or well hidden. I always thought there should be a metamagic to raise the perception threshhold (say 6-force + initiate grade or initiate grade/2).

One major difference between drugs and magic in that case is that you need a specific drug to get a specific effect. With the magic, the exact same spell, possibly used by the same mage, can do either good or bad. Until the spell is going, there's absolutely no way to tell which it will be. Few peoples are comfortable with the idea.
Add to that a whole lot of movie bad guys messing with people's heads in horrible ways and those spells (and whoever uses them) will build up a bad repute in case of abuses faster than a gunbunny. Simply because peoples are more familiar with guns and their limitations : you can put on a ballistic vest, but there's no magic-proof tinfoil hat....

I think you are misunderstanding what permanent means. Permanent means that you don't have to sustain it. It doesn't mean that the effects of the spell cannot be resisted.

RAW all mental manipulation spells can be resisted. Influence doesn't say that this rule doesn't apply.

If you think that making something permanent makes it unresistable, look at alter memory in street magic (also a permanent spell) which is an example of spell degradation after the spell was made permanent.

Yes but Alter Memory specificly states how and when the target gets new resists. Influence lacks that detail.

To add: Influence only gives two points of when it is removed. when the target is confronted with the wrongness of the situation or when the mage withdraws the effect. So if the idea influence was mundane enough there would be no 'wrongness'.

If you asked a target to go buy a laptop and leave it on a bench. I'd would imagine the initial resist would occur and then leaving something you just paid money for would generate a final resist. when you got home and the spouce nagged you for wasting money you'd get another...and then when they did it again...and again...then when you said a mage mindraped you they would say it was an excuse at that point. ^_^

It ain't that bad, since noticing magic is not that hard.

That's only because a car with polarized windows doesn't fit on most heads.

I'm not trying to restart the argument about ritual spellcasting, but one of the things I like about influence is that it also has great ritual opportunities because it has a permanent effect. There's a previous thread that talks about it (don't have the link handy), but if magical security is lax, you can cast it while the target sleeps, then sleep off the drain, then act on the suggestion you implant the next day. Example:

Assasin mage takes a wetwork job that requires the victim to be killed on a train platform. The problem is that the target never uses the train. Instead of lugging around a dead body without arousing suspicion, or placing a trackable call or text to lure him to the train station, the mage ritually casts influence and plants the following suggestion: 'Variety is the spice of life. You should take the train home from work tomorrow'. The mage sleeps off the drain and the next day lies in wait at the train station. That evening the target takes the train home and is killed on a the platform, apparently during a mugging attempt. No one figures out why he decided to take the train home that night.

Generally there are two ways to defend against spells. At the casting or against sustained spells. Once the spell is permanent, there is neither a casting nor a sustained spell. Moreover do you think you can remove the effects of a Heal spell that has become permanent at any later time?
IMHO this means no Magic=no Resistance to Magic.

Those are both specific rules that work exactly as they are written and only in that context.

If the Resistance roll for Manipulation Spells every Force Turns would go on even after the spell is permanent, this would make all Permanent Manipulations pretty much useless.

Don't forget, for the additional Resistance tests the victim must spend a Complex Action. This is not automatic.

Sure. Just give me a gun.

Very easily: shoot the target of the heal spell (meant to be a joke). However the heal spell is a different case. It isn't a mental manipulation, and is thus not subject to the degradation rules.

Mental manipulation spells have a rule about how they degrade. We can debate about whether this is the best way we might implement it, but mostly the rule is a good one. Influence (unless it says otherwise) is subject to that rule. I agree fully with 'the more reasonable it is, the less likely the person is to notice it', and some of the subtle examples above are good (I liked especially the idea of using it with ritual magics).


I'm not talking about resisting the magic, I'm talking about the natural degradation of mental manipulation effects.


So the basic rule of RAW is that 'unless it says different the default rules apply'. The default rule is that mental manipulation effects degrade.


It takes a small number of combat turns to become permanent, after which you don't need to sustain it. For a force 5 influence that would be 3 combat rounds. Its also worth noticing "Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control". In the case of influence I share the view that this 'may spend a complex action' would only occur if the victim was spending complex actions (i.e. a non subtle influence).

Examples.
1: Influence the guard to escort you, even though you don't have a badge. The guard is constantly wondering why he's doing this, and the spell degrades.
2: Influence the guard to go take a leak, and the guard has been on duty for a while. The guard doesn't stop and wonder 'why am I doing this' and doesn't spend the complex actions.

So my reading of the spell is that you can use it very effectively to do very subtle things over long times. You can use it immediately to do very obvious stuff, and that will last a short time. My observation was solely that if you use this to make the target do crazy things, or things he will object to, then even if the spell has been made permanent, he will get to spend his complex actions to weaken it. YMMV

When you leave the laptop on the bench, you don't get another resist unless somene goes "dude, you forgot something!".
By RAW, sonmeone has to remind you that you're wrong. You need an external corrective to resist. Up to that point, you carry out the command as if it was your own idea to leave the laptop.

Edit : same thing for the guard escorting you in Seth's example. As soon as someone asks where the visitor's badge is, he gets to resist. Up to that point, he thinks that you're not the droid he's looking for.

The RAW states clearly that someone else has to remind you that what you're doing is wrong, not that you get a test in situations where you may question the command for whatever reasons.
It's understandable if you want to houserule this to your interpretation (the spell is, after all, extremely powerful as written if a mage applies it wisely), but the RAW is pretty clear on this.

Each permanent manipulation spell has it's own spell-breaking conditions (i actually just reread all of them to make sure), there's no general rule here and by RAW, we have to stick entirely to the caveats mentioned in the spell's description.
For Mana Static, it's an automatic degradation over time, False Memory and Influence each have their own, specific caveat and the rest (all of them Environment or Transformation subtypes, such as Makeover) actually are permanent in the same way their mundane equivalent is permanent.

Where is this rule that Mental Manipulations generally degrade? The only special rule about those spells I know of is that every Force Turns the victim may spend a Complex Action to get another resistance test, whose hits are cumulative with previous ones.

I only know about Mana Static, which degrades automatically and Alter Memory which allows additional Willpower tests after certain conditions are meat. Neither of those rules applies to any other spell.

You haven't missed anything, the rules you mention just effectively come down to the spell degrading over time. There's no rule along the lines of Mana Static for control manipulations. It would also be pretty pointless in most cases, as even a complete pushover with WIL 1 would shake off a spell such as Control Emotions in much less than a few hours.

Just be careful what you wish for in your game. What pc's do is always fair game for the GM. Having your street sam full burst the mage when a security guard tells him to "freeze" the code word from the influence spell cast on him in his sleep with only one chance to resist, while he was asleep, now that it is permanent... might not be fun for your game.

While this is certinly possible for the GM to do, he still has to keep the game world plausible. The runners finding out who is going to be on watch when they hit a facility and influencing them beforehand is. A Corp mage implanting a very specific suggestion into every cybered person isn't.
If the oppsition has specific knowledge about the runners though, this is a fair and useful tactic.

I'm wondering if this kind of judas trigger is a viable application for the spell. It's not entirely clear from the description, but i'd be inclined to restrict that to a different Create Sleeper spell based on Influence.

As far as turning their own tricks against them goes, i base my setting upon assumptions of plausibility instead of metagame calculations.
Influence is certainly something in the arsenal of powerful enemies, though. The spell is part of the game world unless a group decides to houserule it out, it's extremely efficient as well. There's limits to it's prevalence, however.
I'm assuming that Control Manipulations are highly illegal in most jurisdictions.
That doesn't make them unknown, it just means they will be found only among specific groups.
This isn't the kind of stuff every wizkid in the Barrens packs in his grimoire, so enemies with this spell will be fortunately rare.

Regarding the general use of such tricks by the players, they should keep in mind that use of their tricks has it's limits in practice.
When word gets out that a runner team in the sprawl is using a certain approach over and over again, countermeasures will be taken.
This means that they should come up with new ideas all the time or they'll end up on a run where security is built to counter that team that waltzes into every corp lab with the same method.
This is why some aces up the PCs' sleeves should be saved for occassions where nothing else works.
The more obvious tricks are also something that high-sec installations could incorporate into their defense protocolls right from the start.
In the case of mind control, this could easily be employed -and with a lot of additional uses- by incorporating redundant guard systems, utilizing mostly independent cadres of drones (who are not a viable target in the first place) and metahuman personell instructed to ask questions when a colleague behaves oddly to counter this specific spell.

I'm also wondering if the spell is visible in the target's aura as long as the instruction isn't carried out. I'm inclined to say yes.

Assensing corp sec guard looks at Bob who is Under the Influence that is now permanent since it was cast last night after that Awesome night of partying with that hot chick at that rocking place he doesn't remember quite that well anymore. No Spell aura....

Assensing watcher spirit looks at Bob who is under Mind Control ... and goes screaming to the corp sec team Mage and triggers the silent alarms.


Pick the spells you want to use for the purposes you think you need. There are differences.

Assensing Watcher probably runs to his master about Barney as well since he rolled a critical glitch there. 2 hits with 2 dice is not that easy.

As far as i see it atm, the spell aura remains up to the point where the instruction is carried out and then forgotten.

I could understand a ruling that the spell is only visible until it becomes permanent, but my interpretation so far is that a permanent spell remains visible until he returns the target to the status quo (being healed, being repaired, having carried out the instruction and so forth).

Both have pretty obvious implications when you use Influence in advance.

Hey! Don't forget bonus dice for actively perceiving! And Teamwork!

Though if you wan to game the system to make the world fail all the time that's your prerogative. Doesn't seem fun though.

Don't forget penalties for astral visibility and distance to the target and targets actively hiding. And you are back to about two dice or less.

Using watchers per RAW does not make the world fail, it just forces all mages to use real spirits for guard duty. They just have to invest more to have a lot of them.

As it is, watchers in this edition shouldn't be called watchers, but spammers.
They're great for annoying people, causing distractions in public places, ruining a target's reputation by swarming the city while shouting obscenities about him and similar stuff like that (or being used in a magical add campaign operating along the same principles), but any task that requires a minimum of reliability is beyond them.
Watching in particular.