Influence spell vs control thoughts/emotions spell?, For best use by a face/shaman Options

[Inncubi]

Yeah, mind control spells are nasty. The use of drugs to violate cognitive liberty is nasty as well.

There are some differences between the use of drugs and the use of spells, but this actually made me think about a very common mugging system they have here in my country:

-You get into a cab.
-They spray you with scopolamine ("Escopolamina" in spanish), essentially makes you want to agree to whatever they ask of you.
-They go 'round and stop you in every ATM they find, and take away all your money.
-You wake up in a dumpster, naked and with horrible headache, and little memory of the night before (if the dose is high enugh, brain damage can happen. Even death.).

Now, that is bad. Comparable to use of mind control spells to... well, make someone shoot himself, or his mates.

On the other hand, my father is a psychiatrist. I've seen people in horrible depressions, who thanks to anti-depressant drugs are able to work, feel better and lead a life they enjoy. In their own words.

Imagine in a shootout a mage that uses control thoughts to cause fear in his enemies so they run away, and live. Is it more moral than shooting them with guns and/or mana bolts?
How about using it to produce or enhance existing good feelings? (Our team uses the mages Mob Mood every week in a friendship reinforcing meet out, its helped us work out or most horrible problems)
"I am Gillette Sammy, and I've been chromed so badly I no longer feel human emotions, but thanks to my shaman buddy I am better, feeling happy, feeling joy".

I think the consequences of these spells are nasty, used that way. But in another sense they can deffinitely help a team keep a low profile, avoid innocent victims (That crazy grandma is aiming at me with her shotgun, let's make her drop it: cast control actions.).

Now, what I love about Shadowrun is the deeply moral issues it inherently carries. Yes, you can play it like an action shootout, but the best games are where these reasonings are made: What are the consequences of being a shooter for hire? What shade of black his morality is coloured with?

[whatevs]

Wow. Wasn't thinking along those lines. I was just going to use influence for warm and fuzzy things (character is a pacifist) like getting security guards to put their own handcuffs on, or convincing kids to eat things off the ground. Maybe even the occassional 'Hey dude, you took my motorcycle keys by mistake., yours are back there somewhere.'

[Falconer]

I've always viewed influence as the 'jedi mind trick' spell. Best used to plant a subliminal suggestion in someone already inclined that way. (buy coke, not pepsi to someone going for a drink). There's a lot of 'suggestions' you can give which aren't right or wrong or are just fun.


The only thing I don't like is there's no metamagics or ways to subtly cast it... Because of the perception rules on spellcasting you need to be far away or well hidden. I always thought there should be a metamagic to raise the perception threshhold (say 6-force + initiate grade or initiate grade/2).

[Manunancy]

I think the consequences of these spells are nasty, used that way. But in another sense they can deffinitely help a team keep a low profile, avoid innocent victims (That crazy grandma is aiming at me with her shotgun, let's make her drop it: cast control actions.).

Now, what I love about Shadowrun is the deeply moral issues it inherently carries. Yes, you can play it like an action shootout, but the best games are where these reasonings are made: What are the consequences of being a shooter for hire? What shade of black his morality is coloured with?

One major difference between drugs and magic in that case is that you need a specific drug to get a specific effect. With the magic, the exact same spell, possibly used by the same mage, can do either good or bad. Until the spell is going, there's absolutely no way to tell which it will be. Few peoples are comfortable with the idea.
Add to that a whole lot of movie bad guys messing with people's heads in horrible ways and those spells (and whoever uses them) will build up a bad repute in case of abuses faster than a gunbunny. Simply because peoples are more familiar with guns and their limitations : you can put on a ballistic vest, but there's no magic-proof tinfoil hat....

[Seth]

Well yes, BUT you can only resist a spell that exists. After 2*DV rounds Influence becomes permanent. Afterwards there is no more spell to resist, but the target will still carry out the instruction. Unless my math is off the target gets two resistance rolls before the spell becomes permanent no matter th

I think you are misunderstanding what permanent means. Permanent means that you don't have to sustain it. It doesn't mean that the effects of the spell cannot be resisted.

RAW all mental manipulation spells can be resisted. Influence doesn't say that this rule doesn't apply.

If you think that making something permanent makes it unresistable, look at alter memory in street magic (also a permanent spell) which is an example of spell degradation after the spell was made permanent.

[testpatternmih]

I think you are misunderstanding what permanent means. Permanent means that you don't have to sustain it. It doesn't mean that the effects of the spell cannot be resisted.

RAW all mental manipulation spells can be resisted. Influence doesn't say that this rule doesn't apply.

If you think that making something permanent makes it unresistable, look at alter memory in street magic (also a permanent spell) which is an example of spell degradation after the spell was made permanent.

Yes but Alter Memory specificly states how and when the target gets new resists. Influence lacks that detail.

To add: Influence only gives two points of when it is removed. when the target is confronted with the wrongness of the situation or when the mage withdraws the effect. So if the idea influence was mundane enough there would be no 'wrongness'.

If you asked a target to go buy a laptop and leave it on a bench. I'd would imagine the initial resist would occur and then leaving something you just paid money for would generate a final resist. when you got home and the spouce nagged you for wasting money you'd get another...and then when they did it again...and again...then when you said a mage mindraped you they would say it was an excuse at that point. ^_^

[Irion]

It ain't that bad, since noticing magic is not that hard.

[Rasumichin]

there's no magic-proof tinfoil hat....

That's only because a car with polarized windows doesn't fit on most heads.

[whatevs]

I'm not trying to restart the argument about ritual spellcasting, but one of the things I like about influence is that it also has great ritual opportunities because it has a permanent effect. There's a previous thread that talks about it (don't have the link handy), but if magical security is lax, you can cast it while the target sleeps, then sleep off the drain, then act on the suggestion you implant the next day. Example:

Assasin mage takes a wetwork job that requires the victim to be killed on a train platform. The problem is that the target never uses the train. Instead of lugging around a dead body without arousing suspicion, or placing a trackable call or text to lure him to the train station, the mage ritually casts influence and plants the following suggestion: 'Variety is the spice of life. You should take the train home from work tomorrow'. The mage sleeps off the drain and the next day lies in wait at the train station. That evening the target takes the train home and is killed on a the platform, apparently during a mugging attempt. No one figures out why he decided to take the train home that night.

[Dakka Dakka]

I think you are misunderstanding what permanent means. Permanent means that you don't have to sustain it. It doesn't mean that the effects of the spell cannot be resisted.

Generally there are two ways to defend against spells. At the casting or against sustained spells. Once the spell is permanent, there is neither a casting nor a sustained spell. Moreover do you think you can remove the effects of a Heal spell that has become permanent at any later time?

Permanent spells must be sustained for a short time, after which their effects become “natural” and no longer require magic or concentration to maintain.

IMHO this means no Magic=no Resistance to Magic.

RAW all mental manipulation spells can be resisted. Influence doesn't say that this rule doesn't apply.This is a specific rule, that works exactly as

If you think that making something permanent makes it unresistable, look at alter memory in street magic (also a permanent spell) which is an example of spell degradation after the spell was made permanent.

Those are both specific rules that work exactly as they are written and only in that context.

If the Resistance roll for Manipulation Spells every Force Turns would go on even after the spell is permanent, this would make all Permanent Manipulations pretty much useless.

Don't forget, for the additional Resistance tests the victim must spend a Complex Action. This is not automatic.

[redwulf25]

Generally there are two ways to defend against spells. At the casting or against sustained spells. Once the spell is permanent, there is neither a casting nor a sustained spell. Moreover do you think you can remove the effects of a Heal spell that has become permanent at any later time?

Sure. Just give me a gun.

[Seth]

Moreover do you think you can remove the effects of a Heal spell that has become permanent at any later time?

Very easily: shoot the target of the heal spell (meant to be a joke). However the heal spell is a different case. It isn't a mental manipulation, and is thus not subject to the degradation rules.

Mental manipulation spells have a rule about how they degrade. We can debate about whether this is the best way we might implement it, but mostly the rule is a good one. Influence (unless it says otherwise) is subject to that rule. I agree fully with 'the more reasonable it is, the less likely the person is to notice it', and some of the subtle examples above are good (I liked especially the idea of using it with ritual magics).

IMHO this means no Magic=no Resistance to Magic.

I'm not talking about resisting the magic, I'm talking about the natural degradation of mental manipulation effects.

Those are both specific rules that work exactly as they are written and only in that context.

So the basic rule of RAW is that 'unless it says different the default rules apply'. The default rule is that mental manipulation effects degrade.

If the Resistance roll for Manipulation Spells every Force Turns would go on even after the spell is permanent, this would make all Permanent Manipulations pretty much useless.

It takes a small number of combat turns to become permanent, after which you don't need to sustain it. For a force 5 influence that would be 3 combat rounds. Its also worth noticing "Every (Force) Combat Turns, the victim may spend a Complex Action to shake off the mental control". In the case of influence I share the view that this 'may spend a complex action' would only occur if the victim was spending complex actions (i.e. a non subtle influence).

Examples.
1: Influence the guard to escort you, even though you don't have a badge. The guard is constantly wondering why he's doing this, and the spell degrades.
2: Influence the guard to go take a leak, and the guard has been on duty for a while. The guard doesn't stop and wonder 'why am I doing this' and doesn't spend the complex actions.

So my reading of the spell is that you can use it very effectively to do very subtle things over long times. You can use it immediately to do very obvious stuff, and that will last a short time. My observation was solely that if you use this to make the target do crazy things, or things he will object to, then even if the spell has been made permanent, he will get to spend his complex actions to weaken it. YMMV

[Rasumichin]

If you asked a target to go buy a laptop and leave it on a bench. I'd would imagine the initial resist would occur and then leaving something you just paid money for would generate a final resist. when you got home and the spouce nagged you for wasting money you'd get another...and then when they did it again...and again...then when you said a mage mindraped you they would say it was an excuse at that point. ^_^

When you leave the laptop on the bench, you don't get another resist unless somene goes "dude, you forgot something!".
By RAW, sonmeone has to remind you that you're wrong. You need an external corrective to resist. Up to that point, you carry out the command as if it was your own idea to leave the laptop.

Edit : same thing for the guard escorting you in Seth's example. As soon as someone asks where the visitor's badge is, he gets to resist. Up to that point, he thinks that you're not the droid he's looking for.

The RAW states clearly that someone else has to remind you that what you're doing is wrong, not that you get a test in situations where you may question the command for whatever reasons.
It's understandable if you want to houserule this to your interpretation (the spell is, after all, extremely powerful as written if a mage applies it wisely), but the RAW is pretty clear on this.

Each permanent manipulation spell has it's own spell-breaking conditions (i actually just reread all of them to make sure), there's no general rule here and by RAW, we have to stick entirely to the caveats mentioned in the spell's description.
For Mana Static, it's an automatic degradation over time, False Memory and Influence each have their own, specific caveat and the rest (all of them Environment or Transformation subtypes, such as Makeover) actually are permanent in the same way their mundane equivalent is permanent.

[Dakka Dakka]

So the basic rule of RAW is that 'unless it says different the default rules apply'. The default rule is that mental manipulation effects degrade.

Where is this rule that Mental Manipulations generally degrade? The only special rule about those spells I know of is that every Force Turns the victim may spend a Complex Action to get another resistance test, whose hits are cumulative with previous ones.

I only know about Mana Static, which degrades automatically and Alter Memory which allows additional Willpower tests after certain conditions are meat. Neither of those rules applies to any other spell.

[Rasumichin]

Where is this rule that Mental Manipulations generally degrade? The only special rule about those spells I know of is that every Force Turns the victim may spend a Complex Action to get another resistance test, whose hits are cumulative with previous ones.

I only know about Mana Static, which degrades automatically and Alter Memory which allows additional Willpower tests after certain conditions are meat. Neither of those rules applies to any other spell.

You haven't missed anything, the rules you mention just effectively come down to the spell degrading over time. There's no rule along the lines of Mana Static for control manipulations. It would also be pretty pointless in most cases, as even a complete pushover with WIL 1 would shake off a spell such as Control Emotions in much less than a few hours.

[jakephillips]

Just be careful what you wish for in your game. What pc's do is always fair game for the GM. Having your street sam full burst the mage when a security guard tells him to "freeze" the code word from the influence spell cast on him in his sleep with only one chance to resist, while he was asleep, now that it is permanent... might not be fun for your game.

[Dakka Dakka]

Just be careful what you wish for in your game. What pc's do is always fair game for the GM. Having your street sam full burst the mage when a security guard tells him to "freeze" the code word from the influence spell cast on him in his sleep with only one chance to resist, while he was asleep, now that it is permanent... might not be fun for your game.

While this is certinly possible for the GM to do, he still has to keep the game world plausible. The runners finding out who is going to be on watch when they hit a facility and influencing them beforehand is. A Corp mage implanting a very specific suggestion into every cybered person isn't.
If the oppsition has specific knowledge about the runners though, this is a fair and useful tactic.

[Rasumichin]

Just be careful what you wish for in your game. What pc's do is always fair game for the GM. Having your street sam full burst the mage when a security guard tells him to "freeze" the code word from the influence spell cast on him in his sleep with only one chance to resist, while he was asleep, now that it is permanent... might not be fun for your game.

I'm wondering if this kind of judas trigger is a viable application for the spell. It's not entirely clear from the description, but i'd be inclined to restrict that to a different Create Sleeper spell based on Influence.

As far as turning their own tricks against them goes, i base my setting upon assumptions of plausibility instead of metagame calculations.
Influence is certainly something in the arsenal of powerful enemies, though. The spell is part of the game world unless a group decides to houserule it out, it's extremely efficient as well. There's limits to it's prevalence, however.
I'm assuming that Control Manipulations are highly illegal in most jurisdictions.
That doesn't make them unknown, it just means they will be found only among specific groups.
This isn't the kind of stuff every wizkid in the Barrens packs in his grimoire, so enemies with this spell will be fortunately rare.

Regarding the general use of such tricks by the players, they should keep in mind that use of their tricks has it's limits in practice.
When word gets out that a runner team in the sprawl is using a certain approach over and over again, countermeasures will be taken.
This means that they should come up with new ideas all the time or they'll end up on a run where security is built to counter that team that waltzes into every corp lab with the same method.
This is why some aces up the PCs' sleeves should be saved for occassions where nothing else works.
The more obvious tricks are also something that high-sec installations could incorporate into their defense protocolls right from the start.
In the case of mind control, this could easily be employed -and with a lot of additional uses- by incorporating redundant guard systems, utilizing mostly independent cadres of drones (who are not a viable target in the first place) and metahuman personell instructed to ask questions when a colleague behaves oddly to counter this specific spell.

I'm also wondering if the spell is visible in the target's aura as long as the instruction isn't carried out. I'm inclined to say yes.

[DireRadiant]

Assensing corp sec guard looks at Bob who is Under the Influence that is now permanent since it was cast last night after that Awesome night of partying with that hot chick at that rocking place he doesn't remember quite that well anymore. No Spell aura....

Assensing watcher spirit looks at Bob who is under Mind Control ... and goes screaming to the corp sec team Mage and triggers the silent alarms.


Pick the spells you want to use for the purposes you think you need. There are differences.

[Dakka Dakka]

Assensing watcher spirit looks at Bob who is under Mind Control ... and goes screaming to the corp sec team Mage and triggers the silent alarms.

Assensing Watcher probably runs to his master about Barney as well since he rolled a critical glitch there. 2 hits with 2 dice is not that easy.

[Rasumichin]

Assensing corp sec guard looks at Bob who is Under the Influence that is now permanent since it was cast last night after that Awesome night of partying with that hot chick at that rocking place he doesn't remember quite that well anymore. No Spell aura....

As far as i see it atm, the spell aura remains up to the point where the instruction is carried out and then forgotten.

I could understand a ruling that the spell is only visible until it becomes permanent, but my interpretation so far is that a permanent spell remains visible until he returns the target to the status quo (being healed, being repaired, having carried out the instruction and so forth).

Both have pretty obvious implications when you use Influence in advance.

[DireRadiant]

Assensing Watcher probably runs to his master about Barney as well since he rolled a critical glitch there. 2 hits with 2 dice is not that easy.

Hey! Don't forget bonus dice for actively perceiving! And Teamwork!

Though if you wan to game the system to make the world fail all the time that's your prerogative. Doesn't seem fun though.

[Dakka Dakka]

Hey! Don't forget bonus dice for actively perceiving! And Teamwork!

Don't forget penalties for astral visibility and distance to the target and targets actively hiding. And you are back to about two dice or less.

Though if you wan to game the system to make the world fail all the time that's your prerogative. Doesn't seem fun though.

Using watchers per RAW does not make the world fail, it just forces all mages to use real spirits for guard duty. They just have to invest more to have a lot of them.

[Rasumichin]

As it is, watchers in this edition shouldn't be called watchers, but spammers.
They're great for annoying people, causing distractions in public places, ruining a target's reputation by swarming the city while shouting obscenities about him and similar stuff like that (or being used in a magical add campaign operating along the same principles), but any task that requires a minimum of reliability is beyond them.
Watching in particular.