Why runners run the shadows and don't steal cars, How to stop chronic car stealers? Options

[CanRay]

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I'm not sure where "In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team." comes from, but it's a house rule. Waiting in ambush is +6, not + infinity and the most elaborate of ambush attempts that would spell instant death in the real world fall apart when confronted with SR's rules and a really fast target.

Really now?

Hm, I highly doubt the SAS would be stock metahumans... And they have access to better cybernetics and clinics than the Street Sammies, and better instructors and magical support than the Gutterpunk Adepts.

[sabs]

That or the SAS Team storms in, and they all point guns at each other and the Street Sam says..

"Harry! When did they make you team leader? I haven't seen you since that stickiwiket* where I got drummed out of the service on those bogus charges."

* Apparently all brits say stickiwicket.

[CanRay]

Contacts: Chose them carefully! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[James McMurray]

Really now?

Hm, I highly doubt the SAS would be stock metahumans... And they have access to better cybernetics and clinics than the Street Sammies, and better instructors and magical support than the Gutterpunk Adepts.

I'm just going by the stats in War! for a special forces soldier. Maybe we just have greatly different PCs in our groups or you build your NPCs well above the baselines in the books. Or maybe SAS is listed there and I missed it (don't have it with me to check).

The physad in the group beats them hands down with around 16 dice for surprise tests. The street sam would be a close to even roll (he's at ~10), but a little ahead if he hears them. That's including the 6 dice for surprise.

Of course, the poor face and mage would be toasted if any of the SAS got a chance to go after them, since they couldn't dodge and are the only viable targets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

The SAS aren't Special Forces. They're what Special Forces want to be when they grow up.

When SAS grow up, they get to be Gurkhas.

When Gurkhas grow up, well, that's one of the signs of the apocalypse.

[James McMurray]

Silly me, reading the internet, seeing the words 'special forces' next to the letters 'SAS' and thinking they were linked. Sorry if I stepped on anyone national/military/historic/whatever sensibilities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So you're saying the SAS should have what, 3 more dice than special force? 4? More?

[Cheops]

Stealing cars also fucks around with jurisdiction. In bog-standard, high-tech dungeon SR you are normally committing most of your big crimes on corporate turf. Most of the cars you are going to be stealing will be on the streets which are LS/KE territory. This means that instead of being on a corporation's Top 10 Wanted list where they don't have the jurisdiction to arrest you (Ares being the exception) in the streets you are now on the wanted list for LS/KE who do have jurisdiction on the streets. This severely limits your ability to stay out of prison.

Public Awareness is a great stat to use to deter car thieves in SR. Once people start recognizing the thief from wanted posters thanks to high PA modifiers they'll knock that shit off real fast.

Plus as has been pointed out it really doesn't make much money compared to Shadowrunning. Alchemy on the other hand... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Edit to add: Car thieves are also nice high profile arrests to make because many living people have had their cars stolen whereas not many living people have been murdered.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I'm not sure where "In game, there would not even be a surprise roll for the SF Team." comes from, but it's a house rule. Waiting in ambush is +6, not + infinity and the most elaborate of ambush attempts that would spell instant death in the real world fall apart when confronted with SR's rules and a really fast target.

Nope, I mean the SAS guys would be going while the Street Sam and PhysAd are stunned that there are people ACTUALLY in the Van. That is what surprise means. NO ACTIONS.

You do not need to roll for surprise if the situation dictates, as this one would. Not a house rule, just common sense. The Thieves had no clue someone was in the van, and the SAS guys watched them working the street, watched them come up to the van, and watched them open the doors.

In Shadowrun... Dead Runners...

[James McMurray]

Nope, I mean the SAS guys would be going while the Street Sam and PhysAd are stunned that there are people ACTUALLY in the Van. That is what surprise means. NO ACTIONS.

You do not need to roll for surprise if the situation dictates, as this one would. Not a house rule, just common sense. The Thieves had no clue someone was in the van, and the SAS guys watched them working the street, watched them come up to the van, and watched them open the doors.

In Shadowrun... Dead Runners...

The rulebook disagrees

The surprise rules below apply to all situations, whether all the parties involved are caught off guard or whether one or more parties are intentionally ambushing others.

I'm not saying your rule is bad (heaven knows I'd like to be able to surprise my group sometimes without having to make high reaction badazzes for them to fight). I'm just saying that it's definitely a house rule. Saying that it's not might confuse new people who are still trying to learn the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rulebook disagrees


I'm not saying your rule is bad (heaven knows I'd like to be able to surprise my group sometimes without having to make high reaction badazzes for them to fight). I'm just saying that it's definitely a house rule. Saying that it's not might confuse new people who are still trying to learn the rules.

If you are using the Surprise Rule, I woud agree with you. I am not... See the difference. The "Characters" have just set up a situation that is BAD for them, and they will reap the consequences. In comparison, if it was the Runners in the van, and they watched some group of individuals do the same thing. The "Thieves" would be hosed by the PC Runners. You are not FORCED to use the Surprise mechanic for every situation. That is why we have GM's.

[CanRay]

Silly me, reading the internet, seeing the words 'special forces' next to the letters 'SAS' and thinking they were linked. Sorry if I stepped on anyone national/military/historic/whatever sensibilities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Better cybernetics or higher magic-level adepts. Combat Druids (Remember, England) that are a force to fear. And probably higher than usual Intuition and Reaction as well, due to their training. Possibly a higher rank in Automatics or Longarms depending on the role they have on the team.

*Shrug* Their training is insane. Amongst other things, they always use live ammo (As explained in the OP), and use actual VIPs in scenarios. It would go... Poorly if the Prime Minister of England were to be killed in a "Training Accident". Or a member of the Royal Family.

The Gurkhas wrote their training manual. I will leave it at that.

[James McMurray]

If you are using the Surprise Rule, I woud agree with you. I am not... See the difference. The "Characters" have just set up a situation that is BAD for them, and they will reap the consequences. In comparison, if it was the Runners in the van, and they watched some group of individuals do the same thing. The "Thieves" would be hosed by the PC Runners. You are not FORCED to use the Surprise mechanic for every situation. That is why we have GM's.

The rule says it applies to all situations. If you're not applying it to all situations then you're house ruling it, which is ok.

[James McMurray]

The Gurkhas wrote their training manual. I will leave it at that.

You'll have to leave it at more than that If you want me to know what you're talking about. I've don't know what a gurkha is, other than it's not the dress that Muslim women wear. But it could appear in a limerick with one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did they invent those tiny pickles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Sixgun_Sage]

Small, incredibly scary men, use the khukri, hardest mountain fighters out there, from Nepal. All else is open to interpretation.

[CanRay]

You'll have to leave it at more than that If you want me to know what you're talking about. I've don't know what a gurkha is, other than it's not the dress that Muslim women wear. But it could appear in a limerick with one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did they invent those tiny pickles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"If a man says he is not afraid of dying, he is either lying or is a Gurkha." - Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw

We just had a big discussion about who and what they are here. If you're one of those types that doesn't like reading, the short version of it is: "Deadliest men ever born".

The Crown of England hires them for his/her personal bodyguard, and has for a long, long time. Remember that "The Sun Never Set On The British Empire" once, there were probably a lot of folks gunning for the Crowns at that time.

[WhiskeyJohnny]

You'll have to leave it at more than that If you want me to know what you're talking about. I've don't know what a gurkha is, other than it's not the dress that Muslim women wear. But it could appear in a limerick with one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Did they invent those tiny pickles? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Gurkhas

edit: Lesbian Elf Stripper Ninja'd

Basically, a retired Gurkha was on a train. 40+ robbers were on the train. Fewer robbers left the train than got on. Gurkha walked away fine.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The rule says it applies to all situations. If you're not applying it to all situations then you're house ruling it, which is ok.

DO you use a rule for Selecting an available Apartment as well, or do you tell the PC what is available?

[Adarael]

This kind of thing is why I use a gradiated scale for "ambushing" type surprise situations, where +6 is an out and out "waiting for dudes to fuck them up" situation, and +1 is "both parties are surprised but one is in a more awkward position, sort of thing." The current binary +6 or nothing doesn't cut it for me.

For instance, imagine the following situation:
Runner Team A is on a stakeout in a parking garage, waiting to kill a mob boss when he exits the elevator. They are crouched by a Eurocar Westwind 2000, weapons drawn and sighted, ready to unload lead at a split second's notice.
Runner Team B is also attempting to eliminate the mob boss. They are blowing a hole in the floor, one storey up. They have their weapons out, but not sighted, because they're gonna fall with a giant slab of concrete onto the next floor.
Runner Team C is guarding the mob boss. They know people are out to get them, and are aware that the parking garage is where people will likely kill them. They do not have their weapons out, though, because they are leaving a nice restaurant.
The Mob Boss is oblivious, and feels cocky as hell.

The elevator dings and the doors slide open. Runner Team A is about to unload hell as a C12 blast goes off one floor up and Runner Team B drops down onto the floor.
Here's what I'd do for the surprise test.
Runner Team A gets a +6 to their surprise test roll, because they are ambushing and ready to fuck anyone up. They have a superior position to everyone else in the area.
Runner Team B probably gets a +3 or +4 to their roll. They're ambushing, but they don't have as clear an idea of what's going on around them. Nevertheless, they've made a pretty surprising entrance - it's just that Runner Team A is better set up than them.
Runner Team C gets a +1 or maybe a +2 if I feel nice, because they KNEW shit might go down once those doors opened, and they're definitely on edge, thinking they might get fucked up. That said, though, wouldn't you be surprised by SUDDENLY GUNFIRE and OMG CONCRETE BLOCK ATTACK?
Mob boss gets dick all, because he was utterly unprepared for it.

I had to come up with this system because of situations where players had said, "Okay, I take my gun out, and I'mr eady for anything. SOMEBODY is probably in that car across the street!" and then they got ambushed by someone behind them - they were prepared for an ambush, but not neccessarily 100%.

[James McMurray]

DO you use a rule for Selecting an available Apartment as well, or do you tell the PC what is available?

Immaterial, as AFAIK there is no such rule. If there were, I'd either use it or house rule it just like any other rule.

I assume the question's absurdity means it was a Socratic attempt to make a point or get me to discover something. If so, care to elucidate?

[James McMurray]

Re: gurkhas

I guess the lesson is ,if you see a gurkha in a berka giving a blow job to a gherkin don't call him a sissy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

I guess the lesson is ,if you see a gurkha in a berka giving a blow job to a gherkin don't call him a sissy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There's better ways to commit suicide.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Immaterial, as AFAIK there is no such rule. If there were, I'd either use it or house rule it just like any other rule.

I assume the question's absurdity means it was a Socratic attempt to make a point or get me to discover something. If so, care to elucidate?

Point is - The GM sets up the scenario. If he determines that the PC's (or NPC's) are surprised for some reason, No rules apply. That is the scenario. It is not a House rule to do so. It amazes me how many people think that that constitutes a House Rule, or that it breaks some established set of rules. It is a SCENARIO.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Mäx]

Don't you mean "the sammie and physad in the team beat the SAS members' surprise rolls and kill them all with no defense allowed?

I quess you missed this little tidbit from the Ambush rules
"Note that it is possible that the character(s) performing the
ambush may get a lower Initiative Score than their targets. If a target
is surprised, this doesn’t matter."

[Irion]

@Adarael
And I would give Runner Team C the upper hand, because A and B are getting in each others way. Runner team A wants to unleash hell on the mobster, but they unleash hell on Runner tream B. Runner team B wants to flatten the Mobster but they are caught in crossfire from the start.
The only team getting what it is expecting es Team C.

[James McMurray]

I quess you missed this little tidbit from the Ambush rules
"Note that it is possible that the character(s) performing the
ambush may get a lower Initiative Score than their targets. If a target
is surprised, this doesn’t matter."

What does that have to do with my post? I'm talking about surprise rolls, which determine who you can and can't attack, not initiative which determines when you attack them.