Adepts nerfed by new magic cost?, I heard tell that Adepts are low on PP as of SR4A Options

[longbowrocks]

Personally, I think the balance is fine as it stands. Finals just ended, so I'm going to build that mage-killing rigger I've been talking about and all will be well.

However, I've heard that adepts don't get enough PP as of 4A since the attribute increasing cost (read: magic) is upped to 5X new grade in karma.
How about this:
Adept PP = magic + initiation grade.
Thus a magic 7 adept with one initiation would have 8 PP to allocate.

Opinions?

[CanRay]

Way of the Adept helps them out a lot more.

[longbowrocks]

Indeed. I need to get that.

[CanRay]

Indeed. I need to get that.

It's cheap, written by a fan, and seems to have gotten...

Well, we haven't torn him a new hoop, which is probably about as positive as we ever get on Dumpshock. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Glyph]

I think giving adepts a free power point with each initiation grade is a bit too much, but I do like the optional rule which lets adepts gain a power point instead of a metamagic when they initiate.

[Yerameyahu]

Psh, adepts get plenty. Free PP for initiation's more than mages get, and you can always be a complete munchkin and geas everything. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That optional rule (from the book) amounts to almost the same thing, but at least they trade for some of the nifty adept metamagics.

[Summerstorm]

Aye... and there are only a few metamagics (useful ones) for an adept anyway.

After Masking and 1-3 others free PP for all *g*. I allow it and use it - PP instead of metamagic on choice.

[longbowrocks]

Looks like a consensus right off the bat, and I don't want awakened characters getting any more powerful than they already are. I guess no need for that rule then.

[ Spoiler ]

inb4 someone decides to disagree just to cause debate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beret.gif)

[Kyoto Kid]

..waitaminute, You mean they've hosed adepts even more than the original 4th ed rules did?

So for the average Adept who starts with a 5 MA this means it will cost an additional 30 Karma to increase the attribute to 6 for that next power point after paying for initiation.

...better hope your GM is very generous with the karma awards.

[Yerameyahu]

I guess I just don't see how that's a problem or unfair, or whatever.

[Udoshi]

The houserule I have seen used, once upon a time in a similar thread on dumpshock, basically amounted to an incentive for awakened characters to initiate and raise their magic together:

By letting the cost of initiation discount raising your magic by the same amount, which offsets the massive spike in cost under 4A rules.

Just to point out how much of a difference is, raising your magic to 7 in 4th was 21 karma. Its 45 in 4A. Oh yeah. And another 13 to initiate first.
Just think about the average rewards per session, and how much TIME it takes to get one more point. Weekly sessions? Biweekly sessions? Doing nothing else - no specializations, no knowledge skills, no binding foci or learning spells - 58 karma.

I was in an entire weekly campaign that went on for a year, and we almost broke a hundred karma total.

[Jhaiisiin]

Also, remember the PP instead of metamagic is an optional rule. If your GM opts out and chooses not to use that, then you're stuck with initiating, running out of metamagics, and/or not having enough karma to initiate again.

In that circumstance, do people still feel they're fairly balanced with the increased magic cost? RAW without optional rules?


EDIT:
And on a side note, when the hell did I hit over 1k posts? I was certain I didn't post here *that* much... Sheesh

[Yerameyahu]

Didn't they also double the typical karma reward? And wasn't the whole point to nerf Magic?

[Whipstitch]

The thing about Adepts is that they seem kinda crappy right up until one of them greases your Big Bad Prime Runner by dropping through the skylight and delivering a double tap while reciting Lord Byron's Destruction of the Sennacherib. Adept Centering is really good.

[CanRay]

Wagner, it's gotta be Wagner! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[longbowrocks]

The thing about Adepts is that they seem kinda crappy right up until one of them greases your Big Bad Prime Runner by dropping through the skylight and delivering a double tap while reciting Lord Byron's Destruction of the Sennacherib. Adept Centering is really good.

I don't know how negating a few dice of penalties will help. Initiate grade 3 is pretty high, and ignoring 3 points of negative penalties is a drop in the bucket after you reach a dice pool of 20.

[Whipstitch]

3 isn't drop in the bucket territory when it can apply to penalties on all Combat and all Physical skills. Beyond that, you need to consider context here. Getting 3 dice or more with Karma is a very expensive proposition for -any- archetype when you're talking about pools in the 20+ range, so that's frankly neither here nor there. Besides, one of the better ways of using Adept Centering is to shore up a character's weaknesses given that frankly it's a bit tricky to have say, a Social Adept that is much good at anything else. Being able to do Called Shots for increased DV with minimal penalies is nothing to sneeze at, particularly when you're only throwing around 9 dice to begin with.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: May 6 2011, 05:02 AM

[longbowrocks]

Except the called shot costs a free action (free action + simple action despite some interpretations), and the centering costs a free action. How are you going to do that?

[Critias]

Except the called shot costs a free action (free action + simple action despite some interpretations), and the centering costs a free action. How are you going to do that?

Not to put a dog in this fight (my own feelings about Adept power levels are, I like to think, pretty clear by now) -- but you can always use a Simple Action in place of a Free. So you can call a shot (free), center (free->simple), and fire once (simple) if you're wanting to have an Adept pull off something sexy and difficult.

[Whipstitch]

You blow a Simple. It's nice for killing armored targets like drones despite wielding light weapons.

Crit beat me to it.

[Udoshi]

Didn't they also double the typical karma reward? And wasn't the whole point to nerf Magic?

It went up by about a third, as I recall.

But.

Most people tended to use old rewards out of habit/tradition, AND the Missions rewards were incredibly skewed towards the low end of things. Not sure if those ever got updated to Anniversary, or which seasons might have been affected/outdated.

I seem to recall a lot of 'what's the typical karma reward in your game' show-and-tell threads going on about the time the transition happened, as people were finding out stuff changed.

Except the called shot costs a free action (free action + simple action despite some interpretations), and the centering costs a free action. How are you going to do that?

Negatory. Centering costs a free action. Centering is for mages.
Adept centering has no action cost listed.
You can also always downgrade a Simple to a Free, and use your other Simple to fire. You could even do it while double-wielding.

[Yerameyahu]

Adept Centering does require a 'centering activity', which could easily be a Free action (reading Byron?). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Negatory. Centering costs a free action. Centering is for mages.
Adept centering has no action cost listed.
You can also always downgrade a Simple to a Free, and use your other Simple to fire. You could even do it while double-wielding.

Centering is centering:
"An initiate may take a Centering action to focus himself and block out distractions
in order to better resist Drain. See Centering, p. 198."

The only difference is in effect and who can take it.
"Adept Centering is similar to
the Centering metamagic (see Centering below) but only available
to adepts and mystic adepts."

As further proof, it even works the same way.
"as long as she can physically perform her chosen
method of centering."

So that's 1 simple to aim + 1 free to center + 1 free to call shot + 1 simple to attack = 2 simple, 2 free actions, which will take more than 1 IP.

If you take aim in your first IP, and call the shot as a simple instead in your second IP, then you can do it, provided the target doesn't move.

[Kyoto Kid]

Didn't they also double the typical karma reward? And wasn't the whole point to nerf Magic?

...haven't played 4th ed since the original version. Back then, the average Karma award was roughly in the 5 -6 range per run. With that in mind, it is as udoshi pointed out, it takes a lot of runs (which can easily last more than one weekly session) to earn that 58 Karma.

I agree, spellcasters needed to be nerfed. However unlike a mage, adepts pretty much only have one method to improve in their "craft" and that is power points.

In a 3rd ed campaign I actually experimented with "divorcing" Adepts from magic and basing the energy for powers directly on Essence (drawing the power from within one's self) with advancement available through initiation. I removed any powers that directly related to Astral space/mana (like Astral Perception or Living Focus). The concept worked pretty well and didn't unbalance the campaign.

[Yerameyahu]

longbowrocks, your view that Called Shot requires a separate Take Aim is not typical, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)