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longbowrocks
Personally, I think the balance is fine as it stands. Finals just ended, so I'm going to build that mage-killing rigger I've been talking about and all will be well.

However, I've heard that adepts don't get enough PP as of 4A since the attribute increasing cost (read: magic) is upped to 5X new grade in karma.
How about this:
Adept PP = magic + initiation grade.
Thus a magic 7 adept with one initiation would have 8 PP to allocate.

Opinions?
CanRay
Way of the Adept helps them out a lot more.
longbowrocks
Indeed. I need to get that.
CanRay
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 5 2011, 09:52 PM) *
Indeed. I need to get that.

It's cheap, written by a fan, and seems to have gotten...

Well, we haven't torn him a new hoop, which is probably about as positive as we ever get on Dumpshock. nyahnyah.gif
Glyph
I think giving adepts a free power point with each initiation grade is a bit too much, but I do like the optional rule which lets adepts gain a power point instead of a metamagic when they initiate.
Yerameyahu
Psh, adepts get plenty. Free PP for initiation's more than mages get, and you can always be a complete munchkin and geas everything. smile.gif That optional rule (from the book) amounts to almost the same thing, but at least they trade for some of the nifty adept metamagics.
Summerstorm
Aye... and there are only a few metamagics (useful ones) for an adept anyway.

After Masking and 1-3 others free PP for all *g*. I allow it and use it - PP instead of metamagic on choice.
longbowrocks
Looks like a consensus right off the bat, and I don't want awakened characters getting any more powerful than they already are. I guess no need for that rule then.

[ Spoiler ]
Kyoto Kid
..waitaminute, You mean they've hosed adepts even more than the original 4th ed rules did?

So for the average Adept who starts with a 5 MA this means it will cost an additional 30 Karma to increase the attribute to 6 for that next power point after paying for initiation.

...better hope your GM is very generous with the karma awards.
Yerameyahu
I guess I just don't see how that's a problem or unfair, or whatever.
Udoshi
The houserule I have seen used, once upon a time in a similar thread on dumpshock, basically amounted to an incentive for awakened characters to initiate and raise their magic together:

By letting the cost of initiation discount raising your magic by the same amount, which offsets the massive spike in cost under 4A rules.

Just to point out how much of a difference is, raising your magic to 7 in 4th was 21 karma. Its 45 in 4A. Oh yeah. And another 13 to initiate first.
Just think about the average rewards per session, and how much TIME it takes to get one more point. Weekly sessions? Biweekly sessions? Doing nothing else - no specializations, no knowledge skills, no binding foci or learning spells - 58 karma.

I was in an entire weekly campaign that went on for a year, and we almost broke a hundred karma total.
Jhaiisiin
Also, remember the PP instead of metamagic is an optional rule. If your GM opts out and chooses not to use that, then you're stuck with initiating, running out of metamagics, and/or not having enough karma to initiate again.

In that circumstance, do people still feel they're fairly balanced with the increased magic cost? RAW without optional rules?


EDIT:
And on a side note, when the hell did I hit over 1k posts? I was certain I didn't post here *that* much... Sheesh
Yerameyahu
Didn't they also double the typical karma reward? And wasn't the whole point to nerf Magic?
Whipstitch
The thing about Adepts is that they seem kinda crappy right up until one of them greases your Big Bad Prime Runner by dropping through the skylight and delivering a double tap while reciting Lord Byron's Destruction of the Sennacherib. Adept Centering is really good.
CanRay
Wagner, it's gotta be Wagner! nyahnyah.gif
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ May 5 2011, 08:30 PM) *
The thing about Adepts is that they seem kinda crappy right up until one of them greases your Big Bad Prime Runner by dropping through the skylight and delivering a double tap while reciting Lord Byron's Destruction of the Sennacherib. Adept Centering is really good.

I don't know how negating a few dice of penalties will help. Initiate grade 3 is pretty high, and ignoring 3 points of negative penalties is a drop in the bucket after you reach a dice pool of 20.
Whipstitch
3 isn't drop in the bucket territory when it can apply to penalties on all Combat and all Physical skills. Beyond that, you need to consider context here. Getting 3 dice or more with Karma is a very expensive proposition for -any- archetype when you're talking about pools in the 20+ range, so that's frankly neither here nor there. Besides, one of the better ways of using Adept Centering is to shore up a character's weaknesses given that frankly it's a bit tricky to have say, a Social Adept that is much good at anything else. Being able to do Called Shots for increased DV with minimal penalies is nothing to sneeze at, particularly when you're only throwing around 9 dice to begin with.
longbowrocks
Except the called shot costs a free action (free action + simple action despite some interpretations), and the centering costs a free action. How are you going to do that?
Critias
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 6 2011, 12:02 AM) *
Except the called shot costs a free action (free action + simple action despite some interpretations), and the centering costs a free action. How are you going to do that?

Not to put a dog in this fight (my own feelings about Adept power levels are, I like to think, pretty clear by now) -- but you can always use a Simple Action in place of a Free. So you can call a shot (free), center (free->simple), and fire once (simple) if you're wanting to have an Adept pull off something sexy and difficult.
Whipstitch
You blow a Simple. It's nice for killing armored targets like drones despite wielding light weapons.

Crit beat me to it.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 09:14 PM) *
Didn't they also double the typical karma reward? And wasn't the whole point to nerf Magic?


It went up by about a third, as I recall.

But.

Most people tended to use old rewards out of habit/tradition, AND the Missions rewards were incredibly skewed towards the low end of things. Not sure if those ever got updated to Anniversary, or which seasons might have been affected/outdated.

I seem to recall a lot of 'what's the typical karma reward in your game' show-and-tell threads going on about the time the transition happened, as people were finding out stuff changed.

QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 5 2011, 10:02 PM) *
Except the called shot costs a free action (free action + simple action despite some interpretations), and the centering costs a free action. How are you going to do that?


Negatory. Centering costs a free action. Centering is for mages.
Adept centering has no action cost listed.
You can also always downgrade a Simple to a Free, and use your other Simple to fire. You could even do it while double-wielding.
Yerameyahu
Adept Centering does require a 'centering activity', which could easily be a Free action (reading Byron?). smile.gif
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 5 2011, 09:16 PM) *
Negatory. Centering costs a free action. Centering is for mages.
Adept centering has no action cost listed.
You can also always downgrade a Simple to a Free, and use your other Simple to fire. You could even do it while double-wielding.

Centering is centering:
"An initiate may take a Centering action to focus himself and block out distractions
in order to better resist Drain. See Centering, p. 198."

The only difference is in effect and who can take it.
"Adept Centering is similar to
the Centering metamagic (see Centering below) but only available
to adepts and mystic adepts."

As further proof, it even works the same way.
"as long as she can physically perform her chosen
method of centering."

So that's 1 simple to aim + 1 free to center + 1 free to call shot + 1 simple to attack = 2 simple, 2 free actions, which will take more than 1 IP.

If you take aim in your first IP, and call the shot as a simple instead in your second IP, then you can do it, provided the target doesn't move.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 09:14 PM) *
Didn't they also double the typical karma reward? And wasn't the whole point to nerf Magic?

...haven't played 4th ed since the original version. Back then, the average Karma award was roughly in the 5 -6 range per run. With that in mind, it is as udoshi pointed out, it takes a lot of runs (which can easily last more than one weekly session) to earn that 58 Karma.

I agree, spellcasters needed to be nerfed. However unlike a mage, adepts pretty much only have one method to improve in their "craft" and that is power points.

In a 3rd ed campaign I actually experimented with "divorcing" Adepts from magic and basing the energy for powers directly on Essence (drawing the power from within one's self) with advancement available through initiation. I removed any powers that directly related to Astral space/mana (like Astral Perception or Living Focus). The concept worked pretty well and didn't unbalance the campaign.
Yerameyahu
longbowrocks, your view that Called Shot requires a separate Take Aim is not typical, though. smile.gif
Sephiroth
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 6 2011, 12:27 AM) *
So that's 1 simple to aim + 1 free to center + 1 free to call shot + 1 simple to attack = 2 simple, 2 free actions, which will take more than 1 IP.

False false false false false. nyahnyah.gif Taking aim when calling a shot is totally unnecessary.
Epicedion
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 6 2011, 12:27 AM) *
So that's 1 simple to aim + 1 free to center + 1 free to call shot + 1 simple to attack = 2 simple, 2 free actions, which will take more than 1 IP.

If you take aim in your first IP, and call the shot as a simple instead in your second IP, then you can do it, provided the target doesn't move.


You don't have to aim:

QUOTE (SR4A p146)
A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.


longbowrocks
I thought we discussed this a few threads ago. Weren't you one of the people to shoot down the guy who suggested that Called shots only required a free action?

Going by this:
"A character can aim (see Take Aim, p. 148) and then call a
shot at the time of the attack."

In other words, a character can spend a simple action to take aim, then a free action to call the shot.

*
"A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack."
ah, forgot about that.
Machiavelli
And again...the old topic "magic users are too powerful". And please take note: we are in the topic "are adepts nerfed". wink.gif MUAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ May 5 2011, 09:53 PM) *
I guess I just don't see how that's a problem or unfair, or whatever.

Yeah, me neither, and I like Adepts... wobble.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ May 5 2011, 10:12 PM) *
Also, remember the PP instead of metamagic is an optional rule. If your GM opts out and chooses not to use that, then you're stuck with initiating, running out of metamagics, and/or not having enough karma to initiate again.

In that circumstance, do people still feel they're fairly balanced with the increased magic cost? RAW without optional rules?


I DO feel it is balanced with the Increased Magic Cost. Increasing your Magic should not be something that is done overnight. RAW without Optional Rules Indeed. We have a couple of GM's for our Table. Some use the optional rule, others do not. It's all good. I also have yet to run out of Metamagics for the Adept. There are as many Metamagics for the Adept (or very close to it anyways) as there are for the Magician, and some of them can be taken multiple times.

With the advent of the Way of the Adept. I expect (or at least hope) to see more diverse Adepts in the future as well. biggrin.gif
sabs
Call a Shot
A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.

A character may “call a shot” (aim for a vulnerable portion of a target) with this Free Action. See Called Shots, p. 161. This action must be immediately followed by a Take Aim, Fire Weapon, Throw Weapon, or Melee Unarmed Attack.

Called Shots do not have to be followed by a take aim. But certainly it can be.
So assuming the weapon is already 'ready'. It would be
Call Shot (free), Centering (free), fire weapon (simple) That's not terrible.


longbowrocks
Well, you would end up using your entire Action Phase since one of those free actions would have to be downgraded to a simple action. I miss D&D.

Actually, I don't even see any rules for trading actions, so if your GM was being ornery, he could just rule it impossible.
sabs
Simple Actions
A Simple Action is one step more complicated than a Free Action and requires a bit more concentration to attempt. Only a few Simple Actions, however, require a Success Test to accomplish.
Simple Actions can only be taken on a character’s Action Phase. During his Action Phase, a character may take up to two Simple Actions or one Complex Action. An extra Free Action may be taken in place of a Simple Action (so the character would get two Free Actions and one Simple Action, or three Free Actions, instead of one Free and two Simple Actions).

Page 147 SR4A
So he could, but then he's being a complete dick whose not following the rules.
longbowrocks
Alrighty then.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ May 6 2011, 10:27 AM) *
Alrighty then.


Heh... smile.gif
sabs
My PDF Search-Foo is strong.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ May 6 2011, 10:36 AM) *
My PDF Search-Foo is strong.


Indeed it is... May you never miss a keystroke... biggrin.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ May 5 2011, 10:28 PM) *
I agree, spellcasters needed to be nerfed. However unlike a mage, adepts pretty much only have one method to improve in their "craft" and that is power points.


I think the easiest way to do this would be to change combat spells to work like the rest of the combat system.
IE: You can dodge and soak it.
Also, remove or limit overcasting - this should make object resistance, nets hits, and having a decent Magic score suddenly a LOT more important.

On a sidenote, I heard a good/decent houserule for Overcasting that changed overcast spells to stun damage(not physical), but also removed the Force/2 component from drain calculations.(that is, Full Force on drain) It won't KILL you, but it will very easily knock you out and ramp over into overflow.
Glyph
Spellcasters only got nerfed to the extent that everyone got nerfed. The higher cost is for all Attributes. So the ork looking to raise Body from 7 to 8 will be spending more, too. It does mean that GMs need to revise how they balance money and karma, if they want to keep augmented and awakened characters on comparatively equal footing.

Honestly, while I was annoyed that they did this so soon after Runner's Companion came out, and dragged their feet on an errata for the karmagen system, it makes sense. Raising an Attribute should cost at least as much as raising a skill group does.
Makki
QUOTE (Udoshi @ May 7 2011, 07:11 PM) *
I think the easiest way to do this would be to change combat spells to work like the rest of the combat system.
IE: You can dodge and soak it.
Also, remove or limit overcasting - this should make object resistance, nets hits, and having a decent Magic score suddenly a LOT more important.

Magic is so strong, because you resists with only one attribute (Will, Body or Int), while everything else is a skill+attribute test in the game. even against guns one can use full Dodge. People should be allowed Full Magic Dodge. Either allow non-magical character get Counterspelling for this purpose or use Willx2. Problem solved.

Wait, this is an Adept thread...
Muspellsheimr
Adepts, Rules as Written are bad (exception: highly specialized niche builds such as social or hacking are strong, but still usually stronger as an augmented adept).

My solution (that I have actually tested quite a bit) was to revise the Power Point cost of a significant number of adept powers. Overall, this resulted in improving adepts significantly without making them overpowered, and in some areas their power was reduced somewhat.

This change was used in addition to a number of other rules, most notably that players could use the "Purchase additional metamagics" rule at 15 Karma each (with the usual maximum of Magic bonus metamagics), and that adept & mystic adept characters could gain a Power Point as a metamagic (with a maximum number of times equal to initiate grade). This resulted in well balanced and playable adept characters.

Other relevant rules in place where a hard limit of 7 Magic/Resonance (with normal augmented maximum rules for Essence Drain and similar boosts), 5 Initiate/Submersion Grade, and increased Initiation/Submersion costs to 10 + (5 x new Grade).




Recently, however, I have been thinking of changing the metamagic power point rule. Instead, it would be a metamagic available to adepts/mystic adepts that granted (Initiate Grade ÷ 2) power points, rounded up. As a 'normal' metamagic, it can only be taken once.

I have not done any actual play testing with this yet. On paper it appears to be far stronger, but far more restricted, than the typical optional rule. I feel it is a more balanced option and stronger mechanical execution at this point.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 8 2011, 03:11 AM) *
Recently, however, I have been thinking of changing the metamagic power point rule. Instead, it would be a metamagic available to adepts/mystic adepts that granted (Initiate Grade ÷ 2) power points, rounded up. As a 'normal' metamagic, it can only be taken once.

I have not done any actual play testing with this yet. On paper it appears to be far stronger, but far more restricted, than the typical optional rule. I feel it is a more balanced option and stronger mechanical execution at this point.


This is an Interesting Option. I would be quite interested in hearing how it plays out.
Whipstitch
You might want to phrase that idea differently here on dumpshock given that the division sign is a bit tough to tell apart from a plus sign with some display settings. For a split second I thought you were suggesting that Grade 3 could result in 5 power points. That conversation could have been rather heated. grinbig.gif
Dez384
QUOTE (Makki @ May 7 2011, 08:43 PM) *
Magic is so strong, because you resists with only one attribute (Will, Body or Int), while everything else is a skill+attribute test in the game. even against guns one can use full Dodge. People should be allowed Full Magic Dodge. Either allow non-magical character get Counterspelling for this purpose or use Willx2. Problem solved.


You can't dodge magic because its doesn't have an actual physical form; it is a bond between caster and and the casted upon. This is why area of effect spells don't affect people in the radius that the caster cannot see.
QUOTE (SR4A pg 183)
Some spells target areas or points in space; in this case the caster must be able to see the center of the area affected. All visible targets within the area are affected;



There does exist as an equivalent of dodge for magic: counterspelling. It allows you to dodge, and you don't even have to use an action for full defense. Allowing mundanes to take counterspelling would be silly as seeing as how they don't have a magic stat and would have a small dice pool. It would also take up valuable bp/karma that could be allocated elsewhere.

Bottom line:
Magic must defeat Magic.
Halflife
QUOTE (Dez384 @ May 8 2011, 11:51 AM) *
Bottom line:
Magic must defeat Magic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-qLC_ptImo
Falconer
Muspellsheimr:

I've played under someone who combined those two optional rules. It is bad, horrendously bad. The only reason it didn't spiral out of control was because the adept players were new and didn't know the system well enough to make full use of it.

I have two major issues with it.

One the optional rule says "When they initiate they may... IE: not whenever they learn a metamagic... only when they initiate." The cost to learn metamagics is extremely low in comparison to magic attribute costs. The rules were never meant to be combined. (and don't combine well)
Two: when it was written 15 karma was the going rate to raise magic from 4->5... now it's the cost to go from 2->3... so it's almost always far cheaper to go that way. With the SR4a costs it's a bit too undercosted.



I haven't seen any problem w/ allowing adepts to gain 1PP when they gain an initiation, then pay 15karma more for a metamagic if they so choose in addition (there are few enough adept metamagics). This isn't that bad and adequately addresses the issue.

Caveat: I haven't seen way of the adept yet... and I suspect it includes some noticable power creep for adepts.


As far as the Magical/Techno vs mundane bits... I think the bigger problem are the skill caps in the first place. Especially for humans (who don't have any attribute boosts in place). I would much rather see substantial changes to the system to lessen the importance of attributes and increase the influence of skills. Experimentally it might be better to uncap skills but at a higher costs for non-mundanes. (IE: normal chars continue to advance skills at normal cost... while non-mundanes need to pay say 50% more).

Actually that thought gives an idea for something which might make people play humans... a 25% discount on skills for human characters... (instead of 4BP pre rank that works out to 3... and isn't too hard to figure in karma either).

One of the reasons that spirits 'break' after force 6 is their skills are still equal to force... (I've played w/ a houserule that spirit skills == half force... and that seems to have helped a bit).

Irion
It would be a good idea to raise the caps for skill. Lets say up to 10 (11 with quality).

Giving humans a discount on skills is a two edged sword.
The mundane would only pile up a lot of different skill, making the char very soon no more fun to play.
(A reduction of 25% does not sound like a lot, but consider the fact, that humans do not even have high attributes to spend their Karma. It basicly means a character with 10 skill would end up with 13 (and 1/3) skills.

For mages beeing human would become one of the best choices.

The rule of getting a power point per initiation and adding the initiation technic for 15 Karma is making it quite easy for adepts to get a lot of powers.
instead of raising your phyiscal skill group from 5 to 6 you just take 4 times the increase skill power for an initiation. (The technic you get for 15 Karma)
This (at least for the first few initiations) means you are getting a powerpoint for 15 Karma.
In this case here this powerpoint is worth 5*6=30 Karma. (If you do it with single skills it is wort 2*6*4=48 Karma)
(At least it caps out, when it does not pay off to get another rank of initiation and an additional MT.

The rules out of the way of adepts. A typical example for a rule trying to do both:
Making a significant impact, while trying not to change the balance too much.
This is achieved by limiting the amount of powers you are allowed to get with the discount.
So with magic 6 (warriors way) you would only get a discount on for example three times combat sence for a total of 1.5 Powerpoints. Resuliting in a discount of 0.375. Practically nothing.

But you could also choose increased reflexes 3 for 4 Powerpoints, resulting in a discount of 1 PP. (A typical rule leading to the urge to optimize your character.
Mardrax
QUOTE (Irion @ May 10 2011, 05:41 PM) *
It would be a good idea to raise the caps for skill. Lets say up to 10 (11 with quality).

And completely skew every balance the game has built in?
Tyro
QUOTE (Glyph @ May 7 2011, 04:32 PM) *
Spellcasters only got nerfed to the extent that everyone got nerfed. The higher cost is for all Attributes. So the ork looking to raise Body from 7 to 8 will be spending more, too. It does mean that GMs need to revise how they balance money and karma, if they want to keep augmented and awakened characters on comparatively equal footing.

Honestly, while I was annoyed that they did this so soon after Runner's Companion came out, and dragged their feet on an errata for the karmagen system, it makes sense. Raising an Attribute should cost at least as much as raising a skill group does.



Most Attributes (exceptions: Body, Charisma) can be improved directly with 'ware (Willpower with a Pain Editor, Intuition with genetic infusion), and Body and Charisma can be sort-of improved with 'ware (Bone Lacing for damage resistance, symbiotes for improved healing, tailored pheremones for Charisma). Magic cannot.
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