Cyclone Options

[Fauxknight]

So I've been pondering something odd to do for my next character and through various considerations came around to wanting to make a powered armor rigger. Throw walker mode and a couple of arms on a vehicle and its pretty much a drivable robot. Something the size of a motorcycle is about right, and then reminded me of the Robotech cyclones. Since you need lots of slots for these mods the Thundercloud Contrail seems to be the best place to start, it helps that it looks a lot like a cyclone in bike mode. So the cyclone:

5000 Thundercloud Contrail (10 slots)
3000 Walker Mode -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
2500 Rigger Adaptation -1 Slot
1500 Rigger Cocoon -1 Slot
1200 Armor Ratig 6 -1 Slot
2500 Nitrous Injection -1 Slot

At 23,700 thats pretty cheap. The walker mode and arms are obvious to make it a robot, and rigger adaptation to make it riggerable, the cocoon is so no one claims its just a bike and they can pick you off it also gives you some nice suit up time. Armor is only at rating 6 since thats the rating limit cap at character creation (which is silly), losing the slot for 2 armor doesn't matter much since its cheap and that same slot will be used for 12 armor as soon as the game gets going. Weapons don't have to be mounted, it has arms and can wield them that way. Nitrous injection was because it had 1 slot left over and I can't really think of anything better to do with one slot, it helps that its one of the best mods ever for any vehicle.

I had considered other vehicles like:

14000 Dodge Guardian (8 slots)
3000 Walker Mode -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
2500 Rigger Adaptation -1 Slot
1500 Rigger Cocoon -1 Slot

A little pricier at 29,000, it has better handling and lower speeds, but the contrail will lose speed once you upgrade to more than 6 armor. Armor is fixed at 10, but with 8 body and 10 armor its similar to the contrail when its at 6 body and 12 armor.

Maybe I'll get one of each, they are cheap?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Interesting... Let us know how it works out.
I would not got that way, but that is just me. I am personally not a fan of "Mini-Mechs" in Shadowrun. But yours is a much more viable solution than others I have seen proposed.

[Yerameyahu]

This looks about the same as I've seen before, so do a search if you want to see if they did any nice tricks in the past.

Yeah, I find the whole concept distasteful and silly; the motorcyles are open-cockpit to start, and they have front/back wheel mounts. The modification required to turn this into a closed cockpit (even with the cocoon), vertical 'mecha' seems well beyond what the Vehicle Mods do. On the plus side (from a balance/sanity POV), I guess it'd be uniquely distinctive. :/

[Fauxknight]

This looks about the same as I've seen before, so do a search if you want to see if they did any nice tricks in the past.

I've read a few in the past, was just doing my own work from scratch, there isn't that much to it, and I don't think there are too many options that I might be missing.

motorcyles are open-cockpit to start,... The modification required to turn this into a closed cockpit (even with the cocoon),...seems well beyond what the Vehicle Mods do.

Yeah, 4/4A definately falls short of the Rigger 3 custom build from scratch options, but its also a heck of a lot simpler. The cocoon isn't really required, I was just thinking it was a nice rules way to say you have a lot of armor between you and the outside and aren't los mage bait either. If the cocoon was dropped the character would then be required to wear some decent armor, I was even seriously considering military armor for a bit.

(from a balance/sanity POV),

Balance is one of my specialties. This idea stemmed from the concept to make a non-magic non-cyber character who is still fairly useful, so something a bit out of the ordinary is required. I'm not sure if I'll stick with the no-cyber bit or not, the character could be better with just a little cyber, but its not a must have.

Its also an attribute and nuyen light character idea, intuition for initiatie and edge to help out where needed, low vehicle costs compared to cybyer, I think thats all riggers need. This leaves plenty of character points/resources for more skill and gear, like hacking skills and programs.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed: if it were basically power armor, it'd be horrifically inexpensive, and crazy-easy to boost. The fact that it's a giant motorcycle on legs gives it enough drawbacks (in normal circumstances) to be fair…-er.

[Tanegar]

Will your GM let you houserule a transformation modification to allow your Cyclone to actually convert from motorcycle to armored suit and back again?

[Yerameyahu]

Christ, how many slots would that be? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Maybe 10.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This looks about the same as I've seen before, so do a search if you want to see if they did any nice tricks in the past.

Yeah, I find the whole concept distasteful and silly; the motorcyles are open-cockpit to start, and they have front/back wheel mounts. The modification required to turn this into a closed cockpit (even with the cocoon), vertical 'mecha' seems well beyond what the Vehicle Mods do. On the plus side (from a balance/sanity POV), I guess it'd be uniquely distinctive. :/

Agreed... But once you move from a Motorcycle Frame to a Vehicle frame that makes even a little bit of sense, you have approached the level of insanity that is common for such ideas, where Hundreds of points of Armor become involved. It gets ludicrous really, really fast.

[Fauxknight]

Will your GM let you houserule a transformation modification to allow your Cyclone to actually convert from motorcycle to armored suit and back again?

No, this is a filler character for missions, we had some people miss a few mods and they want to rerun those mods. If someone else starts a home game before we have a chance to do those I'd definately be asking.

[Fauxknight]

Agreed... But once you move from a Motorcycle Frame to a Vehicle frame that makes even a little bit of sense, you have approached the level of insanity that is common for such ideas, where Hundreds of points of Armor become involved. It gets ludicrous really, really fast.

Well walker mode only goes up to body 10, but thats still 20 armor not counting smart armor or similar. 10-12 armor is reasonable, most smaller firearms at least have a chance to get through that, and the 10 is what I'm leaning towards since its even simpler and doesn't require post game start modifications.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well walker mode only goes up to body 10, but thats still 20 armor not counting smart armor or similar. 10-12 armor is reasonable, most smaller firearms at least have a chance to get through that, and the 10 is what I'm leaning towards since its even simpler and doesn't require post game start modifications.

You must have missed all those threads where the Walker Mech netted over 200 Armor. Crazy and Ludicrous. But they are located somewhere here on Dumpshock.

[Rasumichin]

You must have missed all those threads where the Walker Mech netted over 200 Armor. Crazy and Ludicrous.

And highly questionable as far as the rules for armor stacking are concerned, as that concept is based on using a troll samurai as a matroshka doll and putting him in several suits of armor, inside the rigger cocoon, inside the mech frame.
I'm also pretty sure the thread you mention was a really bad attempt at trolling.

Granted, leaving the RAW-breaking armor stacking in the original thread out of the equation, you still end up with a troll sam maxed for soaking, in FFBA, in military armor, inside a rigger cocoon, inside an Armor 20 vehicle.

However, when fighting that monstrosity in actual gameplay, you'd just have to shoot the Armor 20 vehicle until it is destroyed instead of trying to kill the pilot.
Resut : troll sam incapacitated, and way easier than in the case he'd fight outside of the vehicle/cocoon combo.

With the way SR4's armor rules work out when you push them to the limits, a mech is actually more of an option for characters who can barely wear any armor themselves, and they are still easier to taken down than some samurai who doesn't wear a vehicle and doesn't have to be afraid of floors collapsing under his weight.

It's not the gamebreaker it's made out to be here once you get off the drawing board and into actual gameplay.

[Makki]

the fun starts when adding Cyberlimb mods to the mechanical arms.

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, I don't believe you, Rasumichin. Letting someone who *didn't* invest as much resources in 'sam-ness' wear a tank hardly seems like a *better* situation. I guess it's safe if you only allow them where vehicles can go (roads and wilderness)—which is to say, it's okay if you don't allow them any more than existing vehicles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As I understand it, the point of a 'mech' is to take vehicles places where they're unfair.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And highly questionable as far as the rules for armor stacking are concerned, as that concept is based on using a troll samurai as a matroshka doll and putting him in several suits of armor, inside the rigger cocoon, inside the mech frame.
I'm also pretty sure the thread you mention was a really bad attempt at trolling.

Granted, leaving the RAW-breaking armor stacking in the original thread out of the equation, you still end up with a troll sam maxed for soaking, in FFBA, in military armor, inside a rigger cocoon, inside an Armor 20 vehicle.

However, when fighting that monstrosity in actual gameplay, you'd just have to shoot the Armor 20 vehicle until it is destroyed instead of trying to kill the pilot.
Resut : troll sam incapacitated, and way easier than in the case he'd fight outside of the vehicle/cocoon combo.

With the way SR4's armor rules work out when you push them to the limits, a mech is actually more of an option for characters who can barely wear any armor themselves, and they are still easier to taken down than some samurai who doesn't wear a vehicle and doesn't have to be afraid of floors collapsing under his weight.

It's not the gamebreaker it's made out to be here once you get off the drawing board and into actual gameplay.

Yeah, this is very true, I guess... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Aria]

So I've been pondering something odd to do for my next character and through various considerations came around to wanting to make a powered armor rigger. Throw walker mode and a couple of arms on a vehicle and its pretty much a drivable robot. Something the size of a motorcycle is about right, and then reminded me of the Robotech cyclones. Since you need lots of slots for these mods the Thundercloud Contrail seems to be the best place to start...

I like these builds, will probably pinch them for a game I'm going to GM shortly (where APDS/AV ammo will be relatively free and easy so being in a vehicle won't be a huge advantage!)...as far as I see it you are using the bike body + mods as something to create mini mecha that work within the rules - the idea that they are walking bikes seems to be not enough suspension of disbelief to me. They become stats that work without breaking the game and can look like whatever the hell you want (more or less).

I'm also toying with milspec armour and the exoskeleton from Attitude as an alternative and then even small guns will potentially do stun damage but the 8 bod and 10 armour (Dodge G) doesn't seem excessive to me (perhaps I'm missing something)?!? - I might rule that only light armours (Form fitting) can be worn inside the mecha as that also fits the anime styling

[Fauxknight]

Nah, I don't believe you, Rasumichin. Letting someone who *didn't* invest as much resources in 'sam-ness' wear a tank hardly seems like a *better* situation. I guess it's safe if you only allow them where vehicles can go (roads and wilderness)—which is to say, it's okay if you don't allow them any more than existing vehicles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As I understand it, the point of a 'mech' is to take vehicles places where they're unfair.

To be fair this character still has to have lots of skills and an expensive commlink to function, and to be good some expensive cyberware. Also note that a street sam doesn't need to invest a lot of resources to be decent, its just that most do, I mean who wants to be the street sam who went cheap and blew all his essence on some discount wired reflexes and muscle replacement? I figure a well made street sam will blow this character away easy, physical attributes boosted with cyber and bio go way higher than commlink ratings.

[Rasumichin]

Nah, I don't believe you, Rasumichin. Letting someone who *didn't* invest as much resources in 'sam-ness' wear a tank hardly seems like a *better* situation. I guess it's safe if you only allow them where vehicles can go (roads and wilderness)—which is to say, it's okay if you don't allow them any more than existing vehicles. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) As I understand it, the point of a 'mech' is to take vehicles places where they're unfair.

See, we are taking about obviously visible top-notch military armor. The situations where that is appropriate are fairly limited. Imagine the kind of response that evokes when your run doesn't go as stealthy as planned. It's not that there aren't enough weapons in the game that can easily penetrate Hardened Armor 20. They even have a lower availability than Armor Upgrade 20.
There's more to consider here than the obvious solution through superior firepower, of course.
Even RL hidden vehicle armor available to civilians easily adds a metric ton or more to a vehicle's weight.
We're talking about stuff that's most likely much heavier than that, even with the advances material science has made in SR.
Good luck to the mage trying to levitate you over the fence. We're talking about a Threshold of probably 10+ here.
Good luck to the rigger himself as well when he's walking anywhere but on the ground floor (if there's no cellar underneath, of course).
Most corporate buildings probably aren't built to withstand a tank walking around in the halls (not to mention that a walker concentrates his weight on a smaller area than a tank).

A walker may still be able to operate in areas where other vehicles aren't feasible (i mean, there must be some kind of advantage to halving your vehicle's speed for two slots besides "i think it looks really cool"), but there's still very obvious limitations once we're talking stuff like in my example.

I mean who wants to be the street sam who went cheap and blew all his essence on some discount wired reflexes and muscle replacement?

If the GM decides that shadowrunning pays better than stealing cars (which it should, for a variety of reasons), going for cheap discount ware and upgrading later is actually a decent option in long-running campaigns.

[Yerameyahu]

I think this is us totally agreeing, Rasumichin: I was saying the GM *shouldn't* let the motorcycle-with-legs go indoors, *because* it's still just a big vehicle. (I think going *through* the fence is probably trivial, but that's not the point.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Fauxknight, I think the skill/resource investment for this is actually very light. It's just a vehicle, so it's Rigger-lite. You just need Response, Gunnery, and Dodge, really. Possibly Infiltration and Perception, which everyone would already have (along with Dodge). So you can get Response to 4 or 5 for peanuts, and you do have to invest a few points in Gunnery. That's light. If we're talking about a full hacker (I think someone mentioned?), then it's even less: they'd already have everything, short (maybe) again Gunnery.

[Lantzer]

Oddly enough, if I tried to do a cyclone battle armor in Shadowrun 4, I'd probably play with the rules a bit to try to better match the intent of the item in question.

The problem with walkers in general is that they are slow moving and not terribly agile (acceleration 10/20 if you are lucky) in combat - one thing that is anathema to the entire point of a cyclone.

So what _is_ the point of a cyclone? Its a motorcycle with external fixed hardpoints that folds up to not be a motorcycle anymore. If the rider is wearing a specific suit of human-sized light military armor (heavy on communications and lifesupport options), it attaches and upgrades it to a troll-sized heavy military armor with mobility and hydraulic jumping upgrades while granting access to the weapon hardpoints.

Oh yes, and it uses a psychoactive unobtainium powersupply that also makes the control system work.

Considering that the SR4 system lacks any kind of from-scratch vehicle design rules, this sort of GM handwaving is entirely within both the letter and spirit of the rules set. I decide what it can do, put together some rough guidelines based on what we are used to, and there we go. If it's too much trouble in the campaign, it's simple enough to restrict the access to unobtainium.

[Falconer]

I really don't think a 'transformer' type cyclone fits with the setting at all.

I've always been a fan of the power-armor in battletech, and the PA(L) and light suits in general at the RPG level. But the closest thing in SR is heavy military armor w/ mobility and strength upgrades (which I don't see anything wrong with). And even there the 'pilot' isn't 'unconcious' in VR in a cockpit, he's actually driving it himself on his own initiative. The 'pilot' still needs to have wired reflexes or other IP boosters of his own and isn't just dropping into hot sim for freebie 3 passes.

This ends up being far less of power armor and far more of a rigger mini-mech.


Though I disagree w/ the poster who commented on a motorcycle not getting into a building. If it's electric, not a lot of noise... Motorcycles should easily fit through doorways, hallways, and the like. Smart wheels or walker mode should give it very few maneuvering problems. In the end, the steel lynx and a 'combat bike' should be about the same weight. Really a doberman drone isn't that much smaller. Though the doberman is small enough to use gecko tips (medium and smaller drones only... but is only limited to armor 9)

Example:
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (body 8), handling +2, speed 120 (15/30), 12k (the contrail is nice also... more mod slots... but less body means less armor... but the higher top speeds mean mods reduce speed/accel a lot less).

Run flat, or ...
Smart Tires: 5k. Speed 96 (12/24). Handling +2 (4) (important since handling gets added to vehicle defense tests)

Mods: (8 total)
1 Armor Rating 16 obvious (it's heavier armor than a large drone can carry, max 12 on a lynx)
2 Full arm w/ hand
2 Full arm w/ hand
1 Motorcycle Gyro (+2 handling)

2 more points for fun stuff like rigger adaptation (for those who like to jump into their drones), chameleon coating, ram plate, etc. Sidecar (1 mod slot for +3 more body... which allows for funness like a multi-launch drone rack in the sidecar... take it off when you don't want it... or a rigger coccoon in the sidecar (for when you do want to go along).


Potentially put some hidden weaponry in the arms cyberarms style... or put a machine gun in it's arms (preferably w/ underbarrel grenade launcher).

[Fauxknight]

No it doesn't transform, and that was never the intention. I only mentioned cyclone because it vaguely reminded me of such. The intention was to make a small enough usable robot suit within the rules limitations given by the system.

Accel of 10/20 really isn't that bad, thats about the same as your average person, but vehicles get more bonus accel from a vehicle test than someone one foot does from a run test. So, they are kinda slow until you really lay the gas pedal down, and the first version I listed has nitrous which takes care of most low accel issues.

Non-combat speeds are still pretty decent, but I wouldn't want to try long range travel with one of these. You would need some sort of mech transport, so enter the Roadmaster the almost perfect off the shelf armored mech transport.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is an interesting concept. I like that you have thought out a lot of the technical issues, even if they are not completely coherent for the system currently. My choice was always Heavy Military Grade Armor with Mods. But, your option sounds pretty viable.

[Falconer]

Tymeaus:
I see the difference between what he's doing and heavy military armor as this.

In battletech, you have protomechs, which are essentially very small mechs piloted and with physical stats completely divorced from the pilots. (drones/vehicles). Then you have powerarmor... where the suits stats augment the wearer's but the pilots physical and initiative stats and skills form the basis for it's operation.


It takes much more investment to do the latter... and next to none to do the former. In the former, the skills are far more limited... gunnery is a catchall for all weaponry, and piloting... it takes a significant essence/magic cost to get 3+ passes... while w/ a vehicle, you simply switch to full VR for multiple passes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus:
I see the difference between what he's doing and heavy military armor as this.

In battletech, you have protomechs, which are essentially very small mechs piloted and with physical stats completely divorced from the pilots. (drones/vehicles). Then you have powerarmor... where the suits stats augment the wearer's but the pilots physical and initiative stats and skills form the basis for it's operation.


It takes much more investment to do the latter... and next to none to do the former. In the former, the skills are far more limited... gunnery is a catchall for all weaponry, and piloting... it takes a significant essence/magic cost to get 3+ passes... while w/ a vehicle, you simply switch to full VR for multiple passes.

Indeed, Falconer... I truly do understand the difference. For me, I try to avoid the ramp up to Battlemechs, even the little protomechs that we are talking about here. Once you actually start with such ideas, then the ramp up to bigger and bigger 'Mechs is a foregone conclusion.

I Like his compromise here, in that he is staying with something fairly small, and it is not something that FEELS mechlike, but that is only a matter of scale and time. If it stopped at what he is proposing, I could probably live with it. And honestly, the Will Power Suit (From Atitude) sounds kind of like where I would go with it, were I attempting to do so. With Mods and a bit more fluff, of course. Unfortunately, I do not actually have the book to compare to FauxKnight's creation. *shrug*

Personal Preference really, but his proposal is a good compromise in the end.