So I've been pondering something odd to do for my next character and through various considerations came around to wanting to make a powered armor rigger. Throw walker mode and a couple of arms on a vehicle and its pretty much a drivable robot. Something the size of a motorcycle is about right, and then reminded me of the Robotech cyclones. Since you need lots of slots for these mods the Thundercloud Contrail seems to be the best place to start, it helps that it looks a lot like a cyclone in bike mode. So the cyclone:

5000 Thundercloud Contrail (10 slots)
3000 Walker Mode -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
2500 Rigger Adaptation -1 Slot
1500 Rigger Cocoon -1 Slot
1200 Armor Ratig 6 -1 Slot
2500 Nitrous Injection -1 Slot

At 23,700 thats pretty cheap. The walker mode and arms are obvious to make it a robot, and rigger adaptation to make it riggerable, the cocoon is so no one claims its just a bike and they can pick you off it also gives you some nice suit up time. Armor is only at rating 6 since thats the rating limit cap at character creation (which is silly), losing the slot for 2 armor doesn't matter much since its cheap and that same slot will be used for 12 armor as soon as the game gets going. Weapons don't have to be mounted, it has arms and can wield them that way. Nitrous injection was because it had 1 slot left over and I can't really think of anything better to do with one slot, it helps that its one of the best mods ever for any vehicle.

I had considered other vehicles like:

14000 Dodge Guardian (8 slots)
3000 Walker Mode -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
4000 Full Mechanical Arm -2 Slots
2500 Rigger Adaptation -1 Slot
1500 Rigger Cocoon -1 Slot

A little pricier at 29,000, it has better handling and lower speeds, but the contrail will lose speed once you upgrade to more than 6 armor. Armor is fixed at 10, but with 8 body and 10 armor its similar to the contrail when its at 6 body and 12 armor.

Maybe I'll get one of each, they are cheap?

Interesting... Let us know how it works out.
I would not got that way, but that is just me. I am personally not a fan of "Mini-Mechs" in Shadowrun. But yours is a much more viable solution than others I have seen proposed.

This looks about the same as I've seen before, so do a search if you want to see if they did any nice tricks in the past.

Yeah, I find the whole concept distasteful and silly; the motorcyles are open-cockpit to start, and they have front/back wheel mounts. The modification required to turn this into a closed cockpit (even with the cocoon), vertical 'mecha' seems well beyond what the Vehicle Mods do. On the plus side (from a balance/sanity POV), I guess it'd be uniquely distinctive. :/

I've read a few in the past, was just doing my own work from scratch, there isn't that much to it, and I don't think there are too many options that I might be missing.



Yeah, 4/4A definately falls short of the Rigger 3 custom build from scratch options, but its also a heck of a lot simpler. The cocoon isn't really required, I was just thinking it was a nice rules way to say you have a lot of armor between you and the outside and aren't los mage bait either. If the cocoon was dropped the character would then be required to wear some decent armor, I was even seriously considering military armor for a bit.



Balance is one of my specialties. This idea stemmed from the concept to make a non-magic non-cyber character who is still fairly useful, so something a bit out of the ordinary is required. I'm not sure if I'll stick with the no-cyber bit or not, the character could be better with just a little cyber, but its not a must have.

Its also an attribute and nuyen light character idea, intuition for initiatie and edge to help out where needed, low vehicle costs compared to cybyer, I think thats all riggers need. This leaves plenty of character points/resources for more skill and gear, like hacking skills and programs.

Indeed: if it were basically power armor, it'd be horrifically inexpensive, and crazy-easy to boost. The fact that it's a giant motorcycle on legs gives it enough drawbacks (in normal circumstances) to be fair…-er.

Will your GM let you houserule a transformation modification to allow your Cyclone to actually convert from motorcycle to armored suit and back again?

Christ, how many slots would that be? Maybe 10.

Agreed... But once you move from a Motorcycle Frame to a Vehicle frame that makes even a little bit of sense, you have approached the level of insanity that is common for such ideas, where Hundreds of points of Armor become involved. It gets ludicrous really, really fast.

No, this is a filler character for missions, we had some people miss a few mods and they want to rerun those mods. If someone else starts a home game before we have a chance to do those I'd definately be asking.

Well walker mode only goes up to body 10, but thats still 20 armor not counting smart armor or similar. 10-12 armor is reasonable, most smaller firearms at least have a chance to get through that, and the 10 is what I'm leaning towards since its even simpler and doesn't require post game start modifications.

You must have missed all those threads where the Walker Mech netted over 200 Armor. Crazy and Ludicrous. But they are located somewhere here on Dumpshock.

And highly questionable as far as the rules for armor stacking are concerned, as that concept is based on using a troll samurai as a matroshka doll and putting him in several suits of armor, inside the rigger cocoon, inside the mech frame.
I'm also pretty sure the thread you mention was a really bad attempt at trolling.

Granted, leaving the RAW-breaking armor stacking in the original thread out of the equation, you still end up with a troll sam maxed for soaking, in FFBA, in military armor, inside a rigger cocoon, inside an Armor 20 vehicle.

However, when fighting that monstrosity in actual gameplay, you'd just have to shoot the Armor 20 vehicle until it is destroyed instead of trying to kill the pilot.
Resut : troll sam incapacitated, and way easier than in the case he'd fight outside of the vehicle/cocoon combo.

With the way SR4's armor rules work out when you push them to the limits, a mech is actually more of an option for characters who can barely wear any armor themselves, and they are still easier to taken down than some samurai who doesn't wear a vehicle and doesn't have to be afraid of floors collapsing under his weight.

It's not the gamebreaker it's made out to be here once you get off the drawing board and into actual gameplay.

the fun starts when adding Cyberlimb mods to the mechanical arms.

Nah, I don't believe you, Rasumichin. Letting someone who *didn't* invest as much resources in 'sam-ness' wear a tank hardly seems like a *better* situation. I guess it's safe if you only allow them where vehicles can go (roads and wilderness)—which is to say, it's okay if you don't allow them any more than existing vehicles. As I understand it, the point of a 'mech' is to take vehicles places where they're unfair.

Yeah, this is very true, I guess...

I like these builds, will probably pinch them for a game I'm going to GM shortly (where APDS/AV ammo will be relatively free and easy so being in a vehicle won't be a huge advantage!)...as far as I see it you are using the bike body + mods as something to create mini mecha that work within the rules - the idea that they are walking bikes seems to be not enough suspension of disbelief to me. They become stats that work without breaking the game and can look like whatever the hell you want (more or less).

I'm also toying with milspec armour and the exoskeleton from Attitude as an alternative and then even small guns will potentially do stun damage but the 8 bod and 10 armour (Dodge G) doesn't seem excessive to me (perhaps I'm missing something)?!? - I might rule that only light armours (Form fitting) can be worn inside the mecha as that also fits the anime styling

To be fair this character still has to have lots of skills and an expensive commlink to function, and to be good some expensive cyberware. Also note that a street sam doesn't need to invest a lot of resources to be decent, its just that most do, I mean who wants to be the street sam who went cheap and blew all his essence on some discount wired reflexes and muscle replacement? I figure a well made street sam will blow this character away easy, physical attributes boosted with cyber and bio go way higher than commlink ratings.

See, we are taking about obviously visible top-notch military armor. The situations where that is appropriate are fairly limited. Imagine the kind of response that evokes when your run doesn't go as stealthy as planned. It's not that there aren't enough weapons in the game that can easily penetrate Hardened Armor 20. They even have a lower availability than Armor Upgrade 20.
There's more to consider here than the obvious solution through superior firepower, of course.
Even RL hidden vehicle armor available to civilians easily adds a metric ton or more to a vehicle's weight.
We're talking about stuff that's most likely much heavier than that, even with the advances material science has made in SR.
Good luck to the mage trying to levitate you over the fence. We're talking about a Threshold of probably 10+ here.
Good luck to the rigger himself as well when he's walking anywhere but on the ground floor (if there's no cellar underneath, of course).
Most corporate buildings probably aren't built to withstand a tank walking around in the halls (not to mention that a walker concentrates his weight on a smaller area than a tank).

A walker may still be able to operate in areas where other vehicles aren't feasible (i mean, there must be some kind of advantage to halving your vehicle's speed for two slots besides "i think it looks really cool"), but there's still very obvious limitations once we're talking stuff like in my example.



If the GM decides that shadowrunning pays better than stealing cars (which it should, for a variety of reasons), going for cheap discount ware and upgrading later is actually a decent option in long-running campaigns.

I think this is us totally agreeing, Rasumichin: I was saying the GM *shouldn't* let the motorcycle-with-legs go indoors, *because* it's still just a big vehicle. (I think going *through* the fence is probably trivial, but that's not the point.)

Fauxknight, I think the skill/resource investment for this is actually very light. It's just a vehicle, so it's Rigger-lite. You just need Response, Gunnery, and Dodge, really. Possibly Infiltration and Perception, which everyone would already have (along with Dodge). So you can get Response to 4 or 5 for peanuts, and you do have to invest a few points in Gunnery. That's light. If we're talking about a full hacker (I think someone mentioned?), then it's even less: they'd already have everything, short (maybe) again Gunnery.

Oddly enough, if I tried to do a cyclone battle armor in Shadowrun 4, I'd probably play with the rules a bit to try to better match the intent of the item in question.

The problem with walkers in general is that they are slow moving and not terribly agile (acceleration 10/20 if you are lucky) in combat - one thing that is anathema to the entire point of a cyclone.

So what _is_ the point of a cyclone? Its a motorcycle with external fixed hardpoints that folds up to not be a motorcycle anymore. If the rider is wearing a specific suit of human-sized light military armor (heavy on communications and lifesupport options), it attaches and upgrades it to a troll-sized heavy military armor with mobility and hydraulic jumping upgrades while granting access to the weapon hardpoints.

Oh yes, and it uses a psychoactive unobtainium powersupply that also makes the control system work.

Considering that the SR4 system lacks any kind of from-scratch vehicle design rules, this sort of GM handwaving is entirely within both the letter and spirit of the rules set. I decide what it can do, put together some rough guidelines based on what we are used to, and there we go. If it's too much trouble in the campaign, it's simple enough to restrict the access to unobtainium.

I really don't think a 'transformer' type cyclone fits with the setting at all.

I've always been a fan of the power-armor in battletech, and the PA(L) and light suits in general at the RPG level. But the closest thing in SR is heavy military armor w/ mobility and strength upgrades (which I don't see anything wrong with). And even there the 'pilot' isn't 'unconcious' in VR in a cockpit, he's actually driving it himself on his own initiative. The 'pilot' still needs to have wired reflexes or other IP boosters of his own and isn't just dropping into hot sim for freebie 3 passes.

This ends up being far less of power armor and far more of a rigger mini-mech.


Though I disagree w/ the poster who commented on a motorcycle not getting into a building. If it's electric, not a lot of noise... Motorcycles should easily fit through doorways, hallways, and the like. Smart wheels or walker mode should give it very few maneuvering problems. In the end, the steel lynx and a 'combat bike' should be about the same weight. Really a doberman drone isn't that much smaller. Though the doberman is small enough to use gecko tips (medium and smaller drones only... but is only limited to armor 9)

Example:
Harley-Davidson Scorpion (body 8), handling +2, speed 120 (15/30), 12k (the contrail is nice also... more mod slots... but less body means less armor... but the higher top speeds mean mods reduce speed/accel a lot less).

Run flat, or ...
Smart Tires: 5k. Speed 96 (12/24). Handling +2 (4) (important since handling gets added to vehicle defense tests)

Mods: (8 total)
1 Armor Rating 16 obvious (it's heavier armor than a large drone can carry, max 12 on a lynx)
2 Full arm w/ hand
2 Full arm w/ hand
1 Motorcycle Gyro (+2 handling)

2 more points for fun stuff like rigger adaptation (for those who like to jump into their drones), chameleon coating, ram plate, etc. Sidecar (1 mod slot for +3 more body... which allows for funness like a multi-launch drone rack in the sidecar... take it off when you don't want it... or a rigger coccoon in the sidecar (for when you do want to go along).


Potentially put some hidden weaponry in the arms cyberarms style... or put a machine gun in it's arms (preferably w/ underbarrel grenade launcher).

No it doesn't transform, and that was never the intention. I only mentioned cyclone because it vaguely reminded me of such. The intention was to make a small enough usable robot suit within the rules limitations given by the system.

Accel of 10/20 really isn't that bad, thats about the same as your average person, but vehicles get more bonus accel from a vehicle test than someone one foot does from a run test. So, they are kinda slow until you really lay the gas pedal down, and the first version I listed has nitrous which takes care of most low accel issues.

Non-combat speeds are still pretty decent, but I wouldn't want to try long range travel with one of these. You would need some sort of mech transport, so enter the Roadmaster the almost perfect off the shelf armored mech transport.

It is an interesting concept. I like that you have thought out a lot of the technical issues, even if they are not completely coherent for the system currently. My choice was always Heavy Military Grade Armor with Mods. But, your option sounds pretty viable.

Tymeaus:
I see the difference between what he's doing and heavy military armor as this.

In battletech, you have protomechs, which are essentially very small mechs piloted and with physical stats completely divorced from the pilots. (drones/vehicles). Then you have powerarmor... where the suits stats augment the wearer's but the pilots physical and initiative stats and skills form the basis for it's operation.


It takes much more investment to do the latter... and next to none to do the former. In the former, the skills are far more limited... gunnery is a catchall for all weaponry, and piloting... it takes a significant essence/magic cost to get 3+ passes... while w/ a vehicle, you simply switch to full VR for multiple passes.

Indeed, Falconer... I truly do understand the difference. For me, I try to avoid the ramp up to Battlemechs, even the little protomechs that we are talking about here. Once you actually start with such ideas, then the ramp up to bigger and bigger 'Mechs is a foregone conclusion.

I Like his compromise here, in that he is staying with something fairly small, and it is not something that FEELS mechlike, but that is only a matter of scale and time. If it stopped at what he is proposing, I could probably live with it. And honestly, the Will Power Suit (From Atitude) sounds kind of like where I would go with it, were I attempting to do so. With Mods and a bit more fluff, of course. Unfortunately, I do not actually have the book to compare to FauxKnight's creation. *shrug*

Personal Preference really, but his proposal is a good compromise in the end.

Well, i agree on the more extreme examples. Bod 10 Armor 20 is too heavy for indoor use.
Something lighter than that may actually be feasible. This greatly limits your concerns about the low costs, as the gains aren't that impressive.
Yes, it's cheaper points-wise than a well-built sam, but that's only fair, given that the sam will be both better, more reliable and more versatile.

The main issue even with a light vehicle indoors would be maneuvarability (although many newer places are built troll-friendly, which gives more maneuvering space).
Walker mode, gecko tips or smart tires could take care of many problems, but there will be limitations in very close quarters.
Depending on the situation, i'd call for tests on Pilot : Anthroform for things that may be no big deal for a metahuman in conventional armor, with stiff penalties in some cases, and there may be things that are flat-out impossible and have to be worked around.
So the player would still get to use his awesome toy, he'd just have to plan ahead a little bit and expect inconvenient situations from time to time, and there may be missions where it's just outright inappropriate.

Of course, a building designed for a largely drone-based security system would also be highly appropriate for most light walkers.
So there'll be runs where a mech rigger can shine as well as runs where other characters take the fame.
If it's always kinda ok for everyone, odds are high that the runs will all play very much the same.
I'd find that less exciting than a campaign where my character may be of little use once in a while, but we have to do more planning and have to adapt to vastly different situations.

Another thing to keep in mind is that with the low price, it may be an option at some point to outifit most, if not all, of the team with mechs.
The rigger/hacker, the face and the mage could all benefit from having their own walker available.
As with many issues regarding magic use, it becomes a non-issue when the team actually cooperates instead of trying to out-compete each other.

In the end, there can be runs where having a whole group in walkers is a good idea, just as there can be runs where no one should even bother with them, and runs where you will benefit from a mix of mechanized runners and infantrists.

The scene you illustrate sounds ridiculous and un-Shadowrun, but tastes vary. I just meant that there are indeed many places a *walking motorcycle* can't go. Even if they use Large security drones and are troll-accessible, if still uncertain; a motorcycle on legs is big. Definitely it'd be okay sometimes, while other times not. And it should look like a crazily-modified motorcycle, though some people think Walker Mode (*maybe* with Pimped Ride) somehow turns it into a picture-perfect Robocop.

...and why not, it's a bunch of stats not a motorbike?!? I agree with the problem of weight but most corporate buildings should be able to stand up to a walking motorbike...after all, lots of wage slaves weigh more than a bike, even an armoured gun toting one!

Er, a light sporting bike is about 400 lbs already.

Just sayin.





-k

I dunno if it's a dialect feature, but a motorbike sounds smaller than motorcycle to me. Either way, as KarmaInferno said: not light, certainly not less than 95% of wageslaves, even in security armor. A quick google tells me that even sport (AFAIK, lighter and faster) motorcycles run from 400-600 pounds. Harleys go more like 650-700+.

And the average Troll weighs in at what? 300 Kilograms? Seems like Trolls are weighing in at bike levels already.

They are. So? We're talking about wageslaves. Those are trolls, not people.

You are letting that racism show again Yerameyahu And yet, Trolls often are employed by security forces. If they can function on the 100th floor of a high rise tower, why could not a walking motorcycle? It is a Disconnect.

Current buildings would probably be able to hold that.. lots of people, and lots of paper. Paper is ridiculously heavy really. Maybe the introduction of real paperless offices in SR makes true light-load-bearing building feasible. On the other hand, strong construction materials are also quite affordable.

I think you'll find I said this, TJ:I didn't say 'nowhere'. I said, 'sometimes no'. God knows how much weight the vehicle mods add; the 'heavy police bike' Guardian version with armor and multiple machine guns, plus the weight of 4 (well, 2+2) mechanical limbs strong enough to carry it all?

That is light a, the average troll weighs over 660 lbs, a human in one of the lighter suits might weigh less than that. The average building will be able to handle someone well in excess of the combined weight, even the crappiest office I've ever worked in that was an old house converted wouldn't be more effected than the floor creaking. Size might be an issue, but I think any pilot thats not a troll is still going to end up physically smaller than a troll, even if they might outweight them a touch.

You think that a motorcycle on legs (+armor, etc.) with robo-arms (which is not 'a suit') and a rider will be smaller and lighter than a troll? *shrug* It's not impossible, but it's also not that likely. I'm assuming that the legs and arms are a pretty significant size and weight increase.

Trolls are already too big and heavy, so that's not really saying much; if the moto-mecha were troll-sized (at the lowest low end), that's a major issue in itself. I think the mid-range for moto-mecha + rider is definitely above troll-average size and weight, though, and therefore will encounter many (not 'all', facrissake) situations where they don't fit.

This is True... I can agree with "Sometimes, No"...

My only issue in comparison with the Moto-Mech is that it won't actually be a Motorcycle with legs. It will be custom designed to appear like Military Armor, just Bigger. Unfortunately, the design route that you must take is to modify either a Motorcycle sized "Thing" or just custom design what you want and come up with a price. At least when starting with a "motorcycle" you get some idea of size comparisons. Regardless of which method you use, it WILL BE a Suit.

My issue is that you can't do that. At all. There's no reason to think any of the mods makes a motorcycle on legs with robot arms bolted on into a suit. I don't care how much Pimping you do (mostly because that's not at all what that mod does, especially not for 1 slot).

There are no design rules. So, that means you're fully, 100% in GM-fiat/houserule territory… in which case, why discuss it? All bets are off. Let it fly and throw cars while shooting eye-lasers. Or, just GM-magic Extra-Heavy milspec armor into the game, given that's the actual goal.

Which is what he is suggesting. He is using the mod rules, because that is the best we currently have, that will produce something with a cost associated with it. It by no means indicates that it is still a Motorcycle at all. Do the alternate vehicles listed with a description LOOK EXACTLY alike? Absolutely not. There is leeway in how something is described, regardless of how it started out.

It's crazy to suggest there's *that* much leeway. Alternative vehicles are nearly identical; differences are *minor* cosmetics, and possibly *minor* crunch (GM-fiat).

I just think that's kind of the worst of both worlds. You're getting all the benefit of the existing rules (cheap costs, mostly), and all the benefit of utterly breaking them (to invent from scratch a vehicle mech suit thing), at the same time. Like I said: if you're going into GM-fiat/make-stuff-up territory… all bets are off. Maybe take the existing costs and multiply by 3, assuming some guy in his basement can even make this… *mega* corps apparently can't, or just chose not to bother. The Mitsuhama cyborg-ready anthroforms are hundred of thousands of Nuyen, and even a *light* moto-mecha is closer to a Tomino (350k). And none of those have to deal with the design demands of a cockpit, which is not insignificant.

The above is one of the reasons that I steer away from the creation of Moto-Mechs, in any variety. However, as I also said, if you stick to low end vehicles, and severely police what is done, it does not break the game too much. I will never use the idea (as I said, I would just use the Military Grade Armors for such things), but what FauxKnight proposed looked sound enough to work, as long as it was monitored.

As for leeway... You know the end result, so you really have only two choices. Craft it completely by hand, or use the mod rules and re-fluff it. FauxKnight Chose the latter way, because it was in the ruleset.

It's not in the ruleset. It pretends to use the ruleset, that's all. I don't think it makes anyone a bad person (except in Missions, KarmaInferno!), but it doesn't really make sense. *shrug* At the very least, the GM should require a massive version of Pimped Ride, per the rules:Normal Pimped Ride (1 slot, Body*500) is *merely* this:Like those elaborate Bosozoku cars in Japan, they're very unique, but still *cars*.

Well, Pimped Ride comes in 2 Levels, if I remember correctly... Demand the 2nd level, and then increase the cost so that it makes a bit more sense. Easy Peasy. It can be done within the rules, with a little work.

That's what I just said! Except also increase the slots, of course (as the rules say). It's a huge physical, structural modification, after all.

No doubt... at least that way, you have some structure to the design.

I don't see a huge problem w/ the weight on a motorcycle.

Really the book puts trolls in the 300kg range. Anywhere a troll could go, I don't think I'd have much issue w/ a combat bike going.


Also... I disagree that a walker mode on a bicycle is necessarily bipedal w/ a neatly enclosed cockpit... it's probably more horse like with the cocoon like having someone strapped over the back in a sack. I've been toying w/ a character for a LA based game who plays up a cowboy theme... including a mechanical horse.

I agree. The Walker Mode description says that larger vehicles are generally bipedal, but that flat doesn't make sense (I'm specifically advocating a non-RAW rules change, here). Bikes and cars should be like tigers or elephants. Not a mecha-suit.

Aesthetically, If you are going to have a walker mode, I prefer Bipedal to Quad any day. *shrug*