Cyclone Options

[Rasumichin]

I think this is us totally agreeing, Rasumichin: I was saying the GM *shouldn't* let the motorcycle-with-legs go indoors, *because* it's still just a big vehicle. (I think going *through* the fence is probably trivial, but that's not the point.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, i agree on the more extreme examples. Bod 10 Armor 20 is too heavy for indoor use.
Something lighter than that may actually be feasible. This greatly limits your concerns about the low costs, as the gains aren't that impressive.
Yes, it's cheaper points-wise than a well-built sam, but that's only fair, given that the sam will be both better, more reliable and more versatile.

The main issue even with a light vehicle indoors would be maneuvarability (although many newer places are built troll-friendly, which gives more maneuvering space).
Walker mode, gecko tips or smart tires could take care of many problems, but there will be limitations in very close quarters.
Depending on the situation, i'd call for tests on Pilot : Anthroform for things that may be no big deal for a metahuman in conventional armor, with stiff penalties in some cases, and there may be things that are flat-out impossible and have to be worked around.
So the player would still get to use his awesome toy, he'd just have to plan ahead a little bit and expect inconvenient situations from time to time, and there may be missions where it's just outright inappropriate.

Of course, a building designed for a largely drone-based security system would also be highly appropriate for most light walkers.
So there'll be runs where a mech rigger can shine as well as runs where other characters take the fame.
If it's always kinda ok for everyone, odds are high that the runs will all play very much the same.
I'd find that less exciting than a campaign where my character may be of little use once in a while, but we have to do more planning and have to adapt to vastly different situations.

Another thing to keep in mind is that with the low price, it may be an option at some point to outifit most, if not all, of the team with mechs.
The rigger/hacker, the face and the mage could all benefit from having their own walker available.
As with many issues regarding magic use, it becomes a non-issue when the team actually cooperates instead of trying to out-compete each other.

In the end, there can be runs where having a whole group in walkers is a good idea, just as there can be runs where no one should even bother with them, and runs where you will benefit from a mix of mechanized runners and infantrists.

[Yerameyahu]

The scene you illustrate sounds ridiculous and un-Shadowrun, but tastes vary. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I just meant that there are indeed many places a *walking motorcycle* can't go. Even if they use Large security drones and are troll-accessible, if still uncertain; a motorcycle on legs is big. Definitely it'd be okay sometimes, while other times not. And it should look like a crazily-modified motorcycle, though some people think Walker Mode (*maybe* with Pimped Ride) somehow turns it into a picture-perfect Robocop.

[Aria]

...and why not, it's a bunch of stats not a motorbike?!? I agree with the problem of weight but most corporate buildings should be able to stand up to a walking motorbike...after all, lots of wage slaves weigh more than a bike, even an armoured gun toting one!

[KarmaInferno]

Er, a light sporting bike is about 400 lbs already.

Just sayin.





-k

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno if it's a dialect feature, but a motorbike sounds smaller than motorcycle to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Either way, as KarmaInferno said: not light, certainly not less than 95% of wageslaves, even in security armor. A quick google tells me that even sport (AFAIK, lighter and faster) motorcycles run from 400-600 pounds. Harleys go more like 650-700+.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I dunno if it's a dialect feature, but a motorbike sounds smaller than motorcycle to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Either way, as KarmaInferno said: not light, certainly not less than 95% of wageslaves, even in security armor. A quick google tells me that even sport (AFAIK, lighter and faster) motorcycles run from 400-600 pounds. Harleys go more like 650-700+.

And the average Troll weighs in at what? 300 Kilograms? Seems like Trolls are weighing in at bike levels already.

[Yerameyahu]

They are. So? We're talking about wageslaves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Those are trolls, not people.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

They are. So? We're talking about wageslaves. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Those are trolls, not people.

You are letting that racism show again Yerameyahu (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) And yet, Trolls often are employed by security forces. If they can function on the 100th floor of a high rise tower, why could not a walking motorcycle? It is a Disconnect.

[Ascalaphus]

Current buildings would probably be able to hold that.. lots of people, and lots of paper. Paper is ridiculously heavy really. Maybe the introduction of real paperless offices in SR makes true light-load-bearing building feasible. On the other hand, strong construction materials are also quite affordable.

[Yerameyahu]

I think you'll find I said this, TJ:

I just meant that there are indeed many places a *walking motorcycle* can't go. Even if they use Large security drones and are troll-accessible, if still uncertain; a motorcycle on legs is big. Definitely it'd be okay sometimes, while other times not.

I didn't say 'nowhere'. I said, 'sometimes no'. God knows how much weight the vehicle mods add; the 'heavy police bike' Guardian version with armor and multiple machine guns, plus the weight of 4 (well, 2+2) mechanical limbs strong enough to carry it all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fauxknight]

Either way, as KarmaInferno said: not light, certainly not less than 95% of wageslaves, even in security armor. A quick google tells me that even sport (AFAIK, lighter and faster) motorcycles run from 400-600 pounds. Harleys go more like 650-700+.

That is light a, the average troll weighs over 660 lbs, a human in one of the lighter suits might weigh less than that. The average building will be able to handle someone well in excess of the combined weight, even the crappiest office I've ever worked in that was an old house converted wouldn't be more effected than the floor creaking. Size might be an issue, but I think any pilot thats not a troll is still going to end up physically smaller than a troll, even if they might outweight them a touch.

[Yerameyahu]

You think that a motorcycle on legs (+armor, etc.) with robo-arms (which is not 'a suit') and a rider will be smaller and lighter than a troll? *shrug* It's not impossible, but it's also not that likely. I'm assuming that the legs and arms are a pretty significant size and weight increase.

Trolls are already too big and heavy, so that's not really saying much; if the moto-mecha were troll-sized (at the lowest low end), that's a major issue in itself. I think the mid-range for moto-mecha + rider is definitely above troll-average size and weight, though, and therefore will encounter many (not 'all', facrissake) situations where they don't fit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think you'll find I said this, TJ:I didn't say 'nowhere'. I said, 'sometimes no'. God knows how much weight the vehicle mods add; the 'heavy police bike' Guardian version with armor and multiple machine guns, plus the weight of 4 (well, 2+2) mechanical limbs strong enough to carry it all? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This is True... I can agree with "Sometimes, No"... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You think that a motorcycle on legs (+armor, etc.) with robo-arms (which is not 'a suit') and a rider will be smaller and lighter than a troll? *shrug* It's not impossible, but it's also not that likely. I'm assuming that the legs and arms are a pretty significant size and weight increase.

Trolls are already too big and heavy, so that's not really saying much; if the moto-mecha were troll-sized (at the lowest low end), that's a major issue in itself. I think the mid-range for moto-mecha + rider is definitely above troll-average size and weight, though, and therefore will encounter many (not 'all', facrissake) situations where they don't fit.

My only issue in comparison with the Moto-Mech is that it won't actually be a Motorcycle with legs. It will be custom designed to appear like Military Armor, just Bigger. Unfortunately, the design route that you must take is to modify either a Motorcycle sized "Thing" or just custom design what you want and come up with a price. At least when starting with a "motorcycle" you get some idea of size comparisons. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Regardless of which method you use, it WILL BE a Suit.

[Yerameyahu]

My issue is that you can't do that. At all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's no reason to think any of the mods makes a motorcycle on legs with robot arms bolted on into a suit. I don't care how much Pimping you do (mostly because that's not at all what that mod does, especially not for 1 slot). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There are no design rules. So, that means you're fully, 100% in GM-fiat/houserule territory… in which case, why discuss it? All bets are off. Let it fly and throw cars while shooting eye-lasers. Or, just GM-magic Extra-Heavy milspec armor into the game, given that's the actual goal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

My issue is that you can't do that. At all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's no reason to think any of the mods makes a motorcycle on legs with robot arms bolted on into a suit. I don't care how much Pimping you do (mostly because that's not at all what that mod does, especially not for 1 slot). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There are no design rules. So, that means you're fully, 100% in GM-fiat/houserule territory… in which case, why discuss it? All bets are off. Let it fly and throw cars while shooting eye-lasers. Or, just GM-magic Extra-Heavy milspec armor into the game, given that's the actual goal.

Which is what he is suggesting. He is using the mod rules, because that is the best we currently have, that will produce something with a cost associated with it. It by no means indicates that it is still a Motorcycle at all. Do the alternate vehicles listed with a description LOOK EXACTLY alike? Absolutely not. There is leeway in how something is described, regardless of how it started out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

It's crazy to suggest there's *that* much leeway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Alternative vehicles are nearly identical; differences are *minor* cosmetics, and possibly *minor* crunch (GM-fiat).

I just think that's kind of the worst of both worlds. You're getting all the benefit of the existing rules (cheap costs, mostly), and all the benefit of utterly breaking them (to invent from scratch a vehicle mech suit thing), at the same time. Like I said: if you're going into GM-fiat/make-stuff-up territory… all bets are off. Maybe take the existing costs and multiply by 3, assuming some guy in his basement can even make this… *mega* corps apparently can't, or just chose not to bother. The Mitsuhama cyborg-ready anthroforms are hundred of thousands of Nuyen, and even a *light* moto-mecha is closer to a Tomino (350k). And none of those have to deal with the design demands of a cockpit, which is not insignificant.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's crazy to suggest there's *that* much leeway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Alternative vehicles are nearly identical; differences are *minor* cosmetics, and possibly *minor* crunch (GM-fiat).

I just think that's kind of the worst of both worlds. You're getting all the benefit of the existing rules (cheap costs, mostly), and all the benefit of utterly breaking them (to invent from scratch a vehicle mech suit thing), at the same time. Like I said: if you're going into GM-fiat/make-stuff-up territory… all bets are off. Maybe take the existing costs and multiply by 3, assuming some guy in his basement can even make this… *mega* corps apparently can't, or just chose not to bother.

The above is one of the reasons that I steer away from the creation of Moto-Mechs, in any variety. However, as I also said, if you stick to low end vehicles, and severely police what is done, it does not break the game too much. I will never use the idea (as I said, I would just use the Military Grade Armors for such things), but what FauxKnight proposed looked sound enough to work, as long as it was monitored. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

As for leeway... You know the end result, so you really have only two choices. Craft it completely by hand, or use the mod rules and re-fluff it. FauxKnight Chose the latter way, because it was in the ruleset.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not in the ruleset. It pretends to use the ruleset, that's all. I don't think it makes anyone a bad person (except in Missions, KarmaInferno!), but it doesn't really make sense. *shrug* At the very least, the GM should require a massive version of Pimped Ride, per the rules:

Gamemasters should feel free to modify the slots, threshold, cost, availability, and special skills of this modification, as appropriate to the specific features.

Normal Pimped Ride (1 slot, Body*500) is *merely* this:

chrome hubcaps, fluorescent undercarriages, convertible tops, stylized ruthenium paint designs, scrolling holo artwork, raising or lowering, custom grillwork, ear-splitting sound systems, etched crystal windows, shag carpet, and fuzzy dice are just some of the types of accessories that pimped rides have.

Like those elaborate Bosozoku cars in Japan, they're very unique, but still *cars*.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not in the ruleset. It pretends to use the ruleset, that's all. I don't think it makes anyone a bad person (except in Missions, KarmaInferno!), but it doesn't really make sense. *shrug* At the very least, the GM should require a massive version of Pimped Ride, per the rules:Normal Pimped Ride (1 slot, Body*500) is *merely* this... Like those elaborate Bosozoku cars in Japan, they're very unique, but still *cars*.

Well, Pimped Ride comes in 2 Levels, if I remember correctly... Demand the 2nd level, and then increase the cost so that it makes a bit more sense. Easy Peasy. It can be done within the rules, with a little work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I just said! Except also increase the slots, of course (as the rules say). It's a huge physical, structural modification, after all.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's what I just said! Except also increase the slots, of course (as the rules say). It's a huge physical, structural modification, after all.

No doubt... at least that way, you have some structure to the design. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Falconer]

I don't see a huge problem w/ the weight on a motorcycle.

Really the book puts trolls in the 300kg range. Anywhere a troll could go, I don't think I'd have much issue w/ a combat bike going.


Also... I disagree that a walker mode on a bicycle is necessarily bipedal w/ a neatly enclosed cockpit... it's probably more horse like with the cocoon like having someone strapped over the back in a sack. I've been toying w/ a character for a LA based game who plays up a cowboy theme... including a mechanical horse.

[Yerameyahu]

I agree. The Walker Mode description says that larger vehicles are generally bipedal, but that flat doesn't make sense (I'm specifically advocating a non-RAW rules change, here). Bikes and cars should be like tigers or elephants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not a mecha-suit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree. The Walker Mode description says that larger vehicles are generally bipedal, but that flat doesn't make sense (I'm specifically advocating a non-RAW rules change, here). Bikes and cars should be like tigers or elephants. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Not a mecha-suit.

Aesthetically, If you are going to have a walker mode, I prefer Bipedal to Quad any day. *shrug*