Secondary Weapon Skill, this would be easier if I just optimized Options

[longbowrocks]

Alright, so for my character this summer, I chose longarms with a specialization in sniper rifles, just because I like sniper rifles and they have nice damage.

I have three situations I want to be able to handle:
A. Fighting common thugs, runners, and such. Just a standard fight in standard conditions.
Priority here is to kill as many guys per IP as possible.
B. Being armed under high security. Getting by scanners and cavity checks and the like, while still having the potential to kill people from a distance.
C. The GM gets fed up with me or overestimates our group, and sends in a dragon or huge tanks.

Unfortunately, sniper rifles are not optimal for any of these cases, although they do pretty well in A and C. On the other hand, damage with the rifle will be within expected bounds, and there are things in the books that I can't kill (since I'm spreading my stats thin on infiltration, social, and guns). I just don't want to drop sniping.

For my secondary weapon skill, I'm looking at throwing or pistols.
Pistols will allow me to get holdouts, which are pretty good for concealability, and can be upgraded with all those nifty weapon mods that are so prolific in these books.
Throwing will open up very concealable weapons, the ability to use whatever may be lying around, and grenades, which will allow me to reign in enclosed areas (chunky salsa). On the other hand, that closes off all the weapon mods, which might conceivably make holdouts better.

What's bugging me even more is that automatics for A, and heavy weapons for absolute C would be perfectly optimal, but B blows that plan out of the water (even if I get a submachine gun and load it up with concealability modifiers).

Argh, No! In short, I'm definitely sticking with longarms for my primary(even though grenade launchers are a great way to get around a great dragon's "reroll hits" ability). What do you guys think my secondary weapon skill should be?

[Dez384]

It would be better and make for a more well rounded character to just take the firearms group. You can break the group and specialize with sniper rifles after your first run.

You may want to learn how to use clubs; hitting people with weapons uses the club skills.

[Ryu]

I have three situations I want to be able to handle:
A. Fighting common thugs, runners, and such. Just a standard fight in standard conditions.
Priority here is to kill as many guys per IP as possible.
B. Being armed under high security. Getting by scanners and cavity checks and the like, while still having the potential to kill people from a distance.
C. The GM gets fed up with me or overestimates our group, and sends in a dragon or huge tanks.

A => Under standard conditions, the weapon has to be available and effective.
B => The weapon has to be concealable.
C => The weapon needs to rank high against exceptionally strong targets.

I rate a sniper rifle to fulfill C under many circumstances, but neither A (raising eyebrows on a shopping spree) or B (size). A weapon planed for C can not at the same time be the main tool of the character, since the GM will not bring the usual suspects.

Consider:
A => Sports Rifle (with Spec.)
B => Taser or largest possible pistol
C => Sniper Rifle / Combat Shotgun

So Longarms/Pistols. Throwing weapons are hard to conceal in larger quantities.

[Halflife]

Throwing weapons are hard to conceal in larger quantities.

Throwing Mastery Adept = DEADLY POCKET LINT


But yes, Pistols are awesome for concealability. Especially with weapon mods. If you are going for distance make sure you pick up the Magnification for your cybereyes/glasses. Ignoring range penalties will get you as far as your pistol can go.

[longbowrocks]

A => Under standard conditions, the weapon has to be available and effective.
B => The weapon has to be concealable.
C => The weapon needs to rank high against exceptionally strong targets.

I rate a sniper rifle to fulfill C under many circumstances, but neither A (raising eyebrows on a shopping spree) or B (size). A weapon planed for C can not at the same time be the main tool of the character, since the GM will not bring the usual suspects.

Consider:
A => Sports Rifle (with Spec.)
B => Taser or largest possible pistol
C => Sniper Rifle / Combat Shotgun

So Longarms/Pistols. Throwing weapons are hard to conceal in larger quantities.

Thanks for the point on quantity of throwing weapons. I actually didn't think of that.

As for A, I was thinking more along the lines of "kill a lot of guys fast" not "won't draw attention" since that kind of fits under B. Sports rifles are SS mode (whereas snipers are SA), and I don't want to have to use mod slots to cover weaknesses unless all other aspects of the weapon really shine.

Last but not least, I wouldn't do a group. If I don't have at least 12 dice in a skill, I try not to use it. Combat is especially rigorous since you die if you waste too many shots.

Sounds like pistols are the secondary unless someone else has suggestions.

[longbowrocks]

Throwing Mastery Adept = DEADLY POCKET LINT

Indeed, but I need to kill a large number of adepts before I can get over my inferiority complex enough to actually play one (also I have 0.36 essence on my build right now).

But yes, Pistols are awesome for concealability. Especially with weapon mods. If you are going for distance make sure you pick up the Magnification for your cybereyes/glasses. Ignoring range penalties will get you as far as your pistol can go.

Maybe if I get krav maga with the "take aim is a free action" advantage, but I really just need the pistol for secured meetings and such. Everyone will be in the room with me, so no need to spend too much time aiming. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Dez384]

4 dice from skill group
6 dice from agility
2 dice smartlink
Total of 12 dice; easy to do.


Also, almost any gun plus sticknshock ammo. Sure you only do 6S, but they get the detriment of electric damage if you even just touch them and you negate half of their ammo. Good for pesky things like dragons who have hardened armor.

[Ryu]

Thanks for the point on quantity of throwing weapons. I actually didn't think of that.

As for A, I was thinking more along the lines of "kill a lot of guys fast" not "won't draw attention" since that kind of fits under B. Sports rifles are SS mode (whereas snipers are SA), and I don't want to have to use mod slots to cover weaknesses unless all other aspects of the weapon really shine.

Last but not least, I wouldn't do a group. If I don't have at least 12 dice in a skill, I try not to use it. Combat is especially rigorous since you die if you waste too many shots.

Sounds like pistols are the secondary unless someone else has suggestions.

You need two shots from either weapon to take a standard target out. What is your optimal mod loadout for a Sniper Rifle?


As for your argument against groups, look at high agility chars. You might be happy with Muscle Aug/Toner 2+Suprathyroid Gland (Restricted gear) on top of Agility 5. You´ll love it to death using karmagen.

[Summerstorm]

Last but not least, I wouldn't do a group. If I don't have at least 12 dice in a skill, I try not to use it. Combat is especially rigorous since you die if you waste too many shots.

Whoa, whoa... all that powergaming. That is a harsh rule. You won't use a skill unless you rank under "At least national master or heavily augmented level"? Whoa... really? I have played characters actively helping in combat with a skill of 2 (but a good augmented agility of 5). It works. Even IF you go against wildly fast or intensly armoured foes you still bring down their passive defenses (cost them dodge dice and/or action for full dodges).

[longbowrocks]

Whoa, whoa... all that powergaming. That is a harsh rule. You won't use a skill unless you rank under "At least national master or heavily augmented level"? Whoa... really? I have played characters actively helping in combat with a skill of 2 (but a good augmented agility of 5). It works. Even IF you go against wildly fast or intensly armoured foes you still bring down their passive defenses (cost them dodge dice and/or action for full dodges).

I'm to used to watching our hacker flounder about with 12 dice in his dominant skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[longbowrocks]

You need two shots from either weapon to take a standard target out. What is your optimal mod loadout for a Sniper Rifle?

I generally have an attacking dice pool larger than my enemies reaction+body+armor, and the base damage of my sniper rifle is around the number of physical boxes they have. This game is so close to being OKO with every weapon anyway, why bother with two hits?
I want to go for the barett, but for now I'm using an HK PSG enforcer. Definitely need a smartgun system, chameleon coating to go with my armor, some RC stuff, then maybe some of the super power mods and accessories (firing selection). I'm still deciding, but I don't want to waste any mod slots.

As for your argument against groups, look at high agility chars. You might be happy with Muscle Aug/Toner 2+Suprathyroid Gland (Restricted gear) on top of Agility 5. You´ll love it to death using karmagen.

Suprathyroid gland is going to need to wait a while due to my low essence, but it is a favorite of mine. I've considered a high AGI character who can default on every AGI skill and still beat the pros, but I want to be a bit more balanced for now.
If you're wondering, it's elf + enhanced attrib + metagenetic improvement + toner 4 + suprathyroid = 15 AGI.

I just... don't want skill groups. I'll review the math again, but that wasted point is going to bug mEEEee?! Whoa, I've been misunderstanding how skill groups worked this whole time! I might do just that.
I used to think that you had to start buying from zero for a single skill even if you had a skill group for it.

[ravensoracle]

I would recommend taking heavy weapons and use a MGL-6 and a Airburst Link. It gets a little pricey with ammo but can fit all the roles you want. It also gives you great versatility with the variety of grenade types that can be loaded into it.

A) A grenade is effective against groups of targets. Most of your lower level targets will be made effective by fighting in large numbers. The variety of ammo available from frag/HE to Chem/Gas make it a well rounded choice.

B)The MGL-6 is listed a pistol-version of the MGL-12 so I am making an assumption here but would say it is most likely the size of a heavy pistol. Not as concealable as a hold-out but much better than a Sniper Rifle.

C)This thing fires grenades... nuff said.

As an added bonus your heavy weapons skill for this can apply to larger Heavy weapons giving you a greater chance to play the tactical support role in addition to you job as a sniper.

[Halflife]

I'm to used to watching our hacker flounder about with 12 dice in his dominant skill. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

That seems like someone is getting unfairly harshed on. I know with my hacker rolled around for most of the campaign with 10-14 dice and did just fine.

[Ryu]

I generally have an attacking dice pool larger than my enemies reaction+body+armor, and the base damage of my sniper rifle is around the number of physical boxes they have. This game is so close to being OKO with every weapon anyway, why bother with two hits?
I want to go for the barett, but for now I'm using an HK PSG enforcer. Definitely need a smartgun system, chameleon coating to go with my armor, some RC stuff, then maybe some of the super power mods and accessories (firing selection). I'm still deciding, but I don't want to waste any mod slots.

Single-shot takeouts require a net DV of 10. Body 4 + Armor 8 + Reaction 3 is already 15 dice. Two hits against that are an almost guranteed kill, a single one will likely maim.

[longbowrocks]

4 dice from skill group
6 dice from agility
2 dice smartlink
Total of 12 dice; easy to do.


Also, almost any gun plus sticknshock ammo. Sure you only do 6S, but they get the detriment of electric damage if you even just touch them and you negate half of their ammo. Good for pesky things like dragons who have hardened armor.

How can you possibly type ammo when you mean armor? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)
Anyway, sounds good for holdouts. I'm just hesitant to use the full rules for electricity damage since that means the GM will use them on me too, and I would need to pour points into BOD and WIL if I want to reliably beat a threshold of 3.

[Halflife]

Non-conductivity is your friend

Bod+Will+Impact/2+Non-conductive = 12 dice = 3 bought hits if they are all average

[longbowrocks]

I would recommend taking heavy weapons and use a MGL-6 and a Airburst Link. It gets a little pricey with ammo but can fit all the roles you want. It also gives you great versatility with the variety of grenade types that can be loaded into it.

A) A grenade is effective against groups of targets. Most of your lower level targets will be made effective by fighting in large numbers. The variety of ammo available from frag/HE to Chem/Gas make it a well rounded choice.

B)The MGL-6 is listed a pistol-version of the MGL-12 so I am making an assumption here but would say it is most likely the size of a heavy pistol. Not as concealable as a hold-out but much better than a Sniper Rifle.

C)This thing fires grenades... nuff said.

As an added bonus your heavy weapons skill for this can apply to larger Heavy weapons giving you a greater chance to play the tactical support role in addition to you job as a sniper.

Dang! I didn't think of the grenade pistol.
Why aren't snipers tactical support?

[longbowrocks]

Non-conductivity is your friend

Bod+Will+Impact/2+Non-conductive = 12 dice = 3 bought hits if they are all average

Ah, missed the part about it not just being BOD+WIL.

[ravensoracle]

Snipers are tactical support but are not optimal for every situation. Sometimes it is better to have a machine gun or other heavy weapon in that support role. To clarify heavy weapons expands your usefulness as tactical support.

[longbowrocks]

That seems like someone is getting unfairly harshed on. I know with my hacker rolled around for most of the campaign with 10-14 dice and did just fine.

~eh~
Maybe I have a skewed view of "successful". I build characters to have a very high success rate in what they do. That is, when I'm not using my logic 1 troll's 6 edge on every other test to prove to my team that 1 edge is a waste.

[longbowrocks]

Single-shot takeouts require a net DV of 10. Body 4 + Armor 8 + Reaction 3 is already 15 dice. Two hits against that are an almost guranteed kill, a single one will likely maim.

Yep. pretty much. any assault cannon, or any sniper + high caliber will do that, especially with DP 20.

[Yerameyahu]

Your demands are unreasonable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But, the answer is simple: throwing is worthless for your needs. Pistols are *the* concealable sidearm.

As an unrelated comment, grenades (thrown or launched) are great, and you really don't need a huge DP. They're grenades; just get them close. I assume the MGL-6 is either too bulky to conceal, or at *least* Machine Pistol size, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have one anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

I got some great advice here, and even learned something new. Thanks everyone!

[ravensoracle]

I could agree with machine pistol sized for the MGL-6. I would definitely say it is no smaller than a heavy pistol for those that want to argue that it is described as the "pistol-version." That is the problem when it doesn't outright say it. My guess would be it is somewhere around heavy to machine pistol in size by the pic in the book.

[Glyph]

Grenades are awesome (and I love the pistol one), but they have two main drawbacks:

1) Being able to affect an area, and potentially more than one target, is great, but it also means that they are kind of indiscriminate in their damage. Not the go-to tool for a jumble of combatants, a hostage situation, or when civilians are in the line of fire.

2) Grenades are like assault rifles - you use one, and you attract lots and lots of the wrong kind of attention. Like, a SWAT team, instead of a squad car.


One other note: while it is not the most optimal choice, purely concealability-wise, a short-barreled Defiance T-250 is, for all intents and purposes, basically a heavy pistol that uses the longarms skill.