Spirit Powers, without manifesting? Options

[Apathy]

Ok, I remember that spirits can't affect the physical world without manifesting/materializing. But how do you define 'affecting the physical world'? Obviously they can't take a swing at you, but confusion and accident seem more mana-based, somehow. Do spirits have to materialize to use these powers? Can they just manifest without materializing?

[Herald of Verjig...]

Physical powers typically require materialization (where 'typically' means 'probably all of them, but there might be an exception'). Manifesting does not make them physical, just visible.

Mana powers just need living targets.

[edit]and the loophole Kanada mentioned[/edit]

[Kanada Ten]

All powers are defined as either Physical or Mana just like spells. A spirit must materialize to use any physical power on someone, as such powers do not work on the Astral Plane. Spirits can use any of their Mana powers on their summoner without materializing, though they must materialize to use Mana powers on all other targets not astrally present.



This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Mar 27 2004, 04:20 AM

[mfb]

every power is either Physical or Mana. in order to use a Physical power, the spirit must be materialized. i believe--someone with a book should check--that spirits can use Mana powers at any time (since materialization makes them dual-natured).

[Apathy]

Where are the powers defined? In Critters or the 'Spirits and Dragons' section of SR3?

[Herald of Verjig...]

Critters has all the powers listed in the SR3 book and a lot more. A few are added in other books with the spirit type that first uses the power.

[Kanada Ten]

[Apathy]

For physical-based powers like accident, the rules are clear and the spirit has to manifest.

For mana-based powers like confusion, it seems unclear to me. It seems to indicate that they can perform them in astral, but another passage seemed to indicate that they could only target astral targets (such as other spirits and dual beings) if they were in astral.

Would a spirit need to manifest to perform mana-based powers against a mundane opponent?

[TheScamp]

SR3, p.262, 2nd paragraph on the page:

[Shockwave_IIc]

Ohhh nastyness!! dual natured being in the back of a vehcile, instead of use movement power on the vehcile use on the dualnatured being to stop it (and thus the car) moving, untill the hapless soul get squished.

[Beast of Revolut...]

So to use a mana power on mundanes, it has to materialize? Some of you guys are saying it has to materialize to use powers, others are saying it has to manifest. You all know the difference between materializing and manifesting don't you?

[Shockwave_IIc]

Yup one has physical form, the other is astral saying hello the physical plane.

[tisoz]

[A Clockwork Lime]

It's just like spellcasting. The spirit has to be on the same plane as the target. If a target is completely mundane, then the spirit needs to materialize to use any powers on them, mana included. Due to the limitations of astral space, however, only mana powers and spells can be used on astral targets.

Dual-natured targets can be affected on either plane, but the spirit has to materialize to use any physical powers since, again, the astral plane doesn't allow physical powers.

[Beast of Revolut...]

I don't think movement can affect a passenger. I think it can only affect something being impelled under it's own power.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[A Clockwork Lime]

[TheScamp]

Powers work just like spells in that regard. Anyone/thing who are entirely on the astral can only cast/use mana-based spells or abilities. You have to have at least one foot on the physical (by being either dual natured or entirely on the physical) in order to use Physical based spells or powers.

[BitBasher]

[Shockwave_IIc]

[mfb]

the Movement power affects the target's movement rate. if i'm sitting in a car, my personal movement rate is still (Qui) for walking and (Quix3, or x2 if i'm a dorf) for running, no matter how fast the car i'm in might be travelling. speed me up or slow me down all you want, it won't affect me until i decide to move myself.

[Frag-o Delux]

Relatively speaking the pilot is moving at zero, to the plane at least, relative to the aircraft carrier he would be moving very fast, relative to the ocean he would be going really fast plus 25 knots as the carrier was doing, it is all relative. But I think that it would still do nothing to the dual being as he isn't moving, the car is. Now if the car burst into flames and he tried to escape it, then he would be screwed.

[mfb]

right. relative speeds has nothing to do with it at all. read the power description--it says nothing about reducing a being's speed, only its movement rate. movement rate is a specific term, defined on page 108 of SR3.

[Shockwave_IIc]

Ok, ok i got it!! hello hangover!!! :P :silly:

[mfb]

for instance, using Movement on Shockwave's can of Pabst Blue Ribbon would have no effect, because the can itself has an 0x0 movement rate for both running and walking (unless the imbiber's had a case or two). use it on Shockwave himself, however, and you've got yourself one helluva hair-of-the-dog treatment!