Full Version: Spirit Powers
Ok, I remember that spirits can't affect the physical world without manifesting/materializing. But how do you define 'affecting the physical world'? Obviously they can't take a swing at you, but confusion and accident seem more mana-based, somehow. Do spirits have to materialize to use these powers? Can they just manifest without materializing?
Physical powers typically require materialization (where 'typically' means 'probably all of them, but there might be an exception'). Manifesting does not make them physical, just visible.
Mana powers just need living targets.
[edit]and the loophole Kanada mentioned[/edit]
Mana powers just need living targets.
[edit]and the loophole Kanada mentioned[/edit]
All powers are defined as either Physical or Mana just like spells. A spirit must materialize to use any physical power on someone, as such powers do not work on the Astral Plane. Spirits can use any of their Mana powers on their summoner without materializing, though they must materialize to use Mana powers on all other targets not astrally present.
every power is either Physical or Mana. in order to use a Physical power, the spirit must be materialized. i believe--someone with a book should check--that spirits can use Mana powers at any time (since materialization makes them dual-natured).
Where are the powers defined? In Critters or the 'Spirits and Dragons' section of SR3?
Critters has all the powers listed in the SR3 book and a lot more. A few are added in other books with the spirit type that first uses the power.
| QUOTE |
| Where are the powers defined? In Critters or the 'Spirits and Dragons' section of SR3? |
Yes, in the front of that section, and then expaned upon in the Critters booklet.
For physical-based powers like accident, the rules are clear and the spirit has to manifest.
For mana-based powers like confusion, it seems unclear to me. It seems to indicate that they can perform them in astral, but another passage seemed to indicate that they could only target astral targets (such as other spirits and dual beings) if they were in astral.
Would a spirit need to manifest to perform mana-based powers against a mundane opponent?
For mana-based powers like confusion, it seems unclear to me. It seems to indicate that they can perform them in astral, but another passage seemed to indicate that they could only target astral targets (such as other spirits and dual beings) if they were in astral.
Would a spirit need to manifest to perform mana-based powers against a mundane opponent?
SR3, p.262, 2nd paragraph on the page:
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| Note that in order for a creature to use a power against a target, they must share the same "state" - astral or physical. Solely astral forms cannot affect solely physical targets, and vice versa. |
Ohhh nastyness!! dual natured being in the back of a vehcile, instead of use movement power on the vehcile use on the dualnatured being to stop it (and thus the car) moving, untill the hapless soul get squished.
So to use a mana power on mundanes, it has to materialize? Some of you guys are saying it has to materialize to use powers, others are saying it has to manifest. You all know the difference between materializing and manifesting don't you?
Yup one has physical form, the other is astral saying hello the physical plane.
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc) |
| Ohhh nastyness!! dual natured being in the back of a vehcile, instead of use movement power on the vehcile use on the dualnatured being to stop it (and thus the car) moving, untill the hapless soul get squished. |
I don't know that the dual being would get squished, it would just move slower, relatively speaking.
It's just like spellcasting. The spirit has to be on the same plane as the target. If a target is completely mundane, then the spirit needs to materialize to use any powers on them, mana included. Due to the limitations of astral space, however, only mana powers and spells can be used on astral targets.
Dual-natured targets can be affected on either plane, but the spirit has to materialize to use any physical powers since, again, the astral plane doesn't allow physical powers.
Dual-natured targets can be affected on either plane, but the spirit has to materialize to use any physical powers since, again, the astral plane doesn't allow physical powers.
I don't think movement can affect a passenger. I think it can only affect something being impelled under it's own power.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| Dual-natured targets can be affected on either plane, but the spirit has to materialize to use any physical powers since, again, the astral plane doesn't allow physical powers. |
Not saying your wrong, my spirit rules are hazy at best, but i thought that you could get effected in such a way was one of the downsides to being dual natured?
| QUOTE ("Beast of Revolutions") |
| I don't think movement can affect a passenger. I think it can only affect something being impelled under it's own power. |
Can't why it would have to work that way, but....
| QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc @ Mar 27 2004, 03:28 AM) | ||
Not saying your wrong, my spirit rules are hazy at best, but i thought that you could get effected in such a way was one of the downsides to being dual natured? |
It's a major downside to being dual-natured. A spirit can affect you on either plane, but because of the limitations of the astral plane, they can only do that with mana-based powers. Physical powers can only be used on the Physical Plane, so a spirit has to materialize to use them. You being dual-natured doesn't change that fundamental limitation... and since you're dual-natured, there's nothing you can do to escape the wrath of a spirit that's on the astral. Unlike other standard magicians who can simply stop using Astral Perception to become mundane.
Powers work just like spells in that regard. Anyone/thing who are entirely on the astral can only cast/use mana-based spells or abilities. You have to have at least one foot on the physical (by being either dual natured or entirely on the physical) in order to use Physical based spells or powers.
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Can't why it would have to work that way, but.... |
Well it could be easily explained because the movement power miltiplies or divides the speed of the subject, and a person sitting in a car has a relative speed of zero. Zero times zero.. carry the zero. Thats just my opinion, a GM could probably rule either way.
| QUOTE (TheScamp) |
| Powers work just like spells in that regard. Anyone/thing who are entirely on the astral can only cast/use mana-based spells or abilities. You have to have at least one foot on the physical (by being either dual natured or entirely on the physical) in order to use Physical based spells or powers. |
Fair enough, that works. As i said hazy at best.
| QUOTE ("bitbasher") |
| Well it could be easily explained because the movement power miltiplies or divides the speed of the subject, and a person sitting in a car has a relative speed of zero. Zero times zero.. carry the zero. Thats just my opinion, a GM could probably rule either way. |
So someone sitting on the launch thingy on a aircraft carrier would have zero relative speed untill it launched him off the aircraft carrier?
Don't get how (must be the hangover) but ok.
the Movement power affects the target's movement rate. if i'm sitting in a car, my personal movement rate is still (Qui) for walking and (Quix3, or x2 if i'm a dorf) for running, no matter how fast the car i'm in might be travelling. speed me up or slow me down all you want, it won't affect me until i decide to move myself.
Relatively speaking the pilot is moving at zero, to the plane at least, relative to the aircraft carrier he would be moving very fast, relative to the ocean he would be going really fast plus 25 knots as the carrier was doing, it is all relative. But I think that it would still do nothing to the dual being as he isn't moving, the car is. Now if the car burst into flames and he tried to escape it, then he would be screwed.
right. relative speeds has nothing to do with it at all. read the power description--it says nothing about reducing a being's speed, only its movement rate. movement rate is a specific term, defined on page 108 of SR3.
Ok, ok i got it!! hello hangover!!! 
for instance, using Movement on Shockwave's can of Pabst Blue Ribbon would have no effect, because the can itself has an 0x0 movement rate for both running and walking (unless the imbiber's had a case or two). use it on Shockwave himself, however, and you've got yourself one helluva hair-of-the-dog treatment!
I'm find orange juice and sprite mix is working fine thank you. No need to summon spirits, besides i the drain might just hurt a bit.
What if I cast Levitate on myself and get a heap of successes which make me go fast. Then I get my Sky Spirit to do its Movement on me (and also Guard too, to make sure I don't hit anything) then I can tear around the city like Neo catching Trinities. Wahay!
you can, indeed. i know a high-grade phsymage who uses that combo; he can, without trying too hard, beat out fighter jets.
Assuming Magic 12, Force 8 with 8 successes (16 dice, sucking up the M Stun), you've got a movement speed of 120 meters per CT or 144km/h. Summon a Force 10 Sky Spirit, and you're moving at 1440km/h.
You might want to get the kind of G-pants that fighter pilots use. From 40m/s to 400m/s in 1 CT means an acceleration of 120m/s^2 or slightly over 12Gs, which is uncomfortable to say the least. And you better not make any sharp turns. Or keep your eyes open. Or have baggy clothes. And the sonic boom would probably wreak havoc on the fragile human body.
You might want to get the kind of G-pants that fighter pilots use. From 40m/s to 400m/s in 1 CT means an acceleration of 120m/s^2 or slightly over 12Gs, which is uncomfortable to say the least. And you better not make any sharp turns. Or keep your eyes open. Or have baggy clothes. And the sonic boom would probably wreak havoc on the fragile human body.
| QUOTE |
| you can, indeed. i know a high-grade phsymage who uses that combo; he can, without trying too hard, beat out fighter jets. |
A Physmage isnt as good as a real mage for this since the speed is determined by the number of sucesses times your magical ability power level. It's likely that a pure mage could go a lot faster.
In retrospect this is kind of pointless, because you will WAY outrun the spirit in nothing flat, he cant keep up.
In retrospect this is kind of pointless, because you will WAY outrun the spirit in nothing flat, he cant keep up.
Levitation does nothing to protect your body from high speed. So unless the human body can withstand traveling at Mach 2 without any protection whatsoever, I don't think it would be a good idea.
That's not mach 2, it's just over mach 1.5. 
A normal mage with a magic attribute of 6 to 8 will not be able to break the sound barrier, really. And he's likely to kill himself before too long. Probably in a comical way. Hilarity ensues.
A normal mage with a magic attribute of 6 to 8 will not be able to break the sound barrier, really. And he's likely to kill himself before too long. Probably in a comical way. Hilarity ensues.
| QUOTE |
| In retrospect this is kind of pointless, because you will WAY outrun the spirit in nothing flat, he cant keep up. |
Be a Horse Shaman.
Yeah, that'd work just fine.
Actually, 400m/s is only 1.175 Mach at sea level. As long as you don't levitate higher than 8-9 thousand meters, you can levitate at a nice 300m/s without breaking Mach 1. The drag might still cause serious problems, I have no idea.
Couldn't the Spirit use Fast Astral Movement to keep up with you?
If you wore a pointy wizard hat and used it as your nose cone you could break the sound barrier. You wouldn't be able to do it with a rounded front however - that's why Spitfires (and other round-prop driven aircraft) could never break Mach 1 - they needed a pointy nose.
If you wore a pointy wizard hat and used it as your nose cone you could break the sound barrier. You wouldn't be able to do it with a rounded front however - that's why Spitfires (and other round-prop driven aircraft) could never break Mach 1 - they needed a pointy nose.
the spirit just has to keep you in LOS. send it up to the upper edge of the atmosphere, and LOS goes a pretty long ways.
oh, and when i said high-grade, i meant high-grade. do not try this at home.
oh, and when i said high-grade, i meant high-grade. do not try this at home.
Where did you get that spirits must maintain LoS to sustain a power? The section in SR3 comments that they have no TN penalty for sustaining powers, but makes no stipulation that their sustaining is any more limited than that of a solid mage.
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