Yakut Shuffle: questions, ideas, criticism Options

[Fatum]

The Germans have already done that.
http://www.shadowhelix.de/images/6/6d/Kart...Differences.png

[Fatum]

Wrote up an overview of Awakened Yakut and a quick gazetteer of its cities.

[Tzeentch]

-- What counts as corruptive and offensive technology to the Yakut?

-- God's number as a mentor? I assume this means something like "One of these legendary ancestors serves as the mentor spirit to most Yakutian shamans." ?

-- Different metric systems for shipbuilding?

-- They can't mine in the interior at all? I assume most of the 'industry' of Yakut is agriculture? Where does the electricity come from? How do they pay for the resources used to build the Surgut arcologies?

-- How does the Air Force get aces? Who are they shooting down?

-- Good general sidebar on military magic, but how do the Russians integrate it?

-- The Northern Fleet is hilariously overpowered compared to the TPA naval forces, but I'm not clear what the strategic goal would be here. The TPA doesn't operate much for the ships to sink but they do have a ton of shamans who can send wave after wave of spirits at them (water spirits carrying limpets might be useful against the subs even if they don't just materialize inside the hull and go to town).

-- More later (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

I'll get to it in Running in Yakut, but basically, my plan is in the Metahuman zone anything goes, except for the stuff like cyberzombies, genetic chimeras, genetic coctails and samesuch. Maybe nanotech, but I'm on the fense about that one. In the Preserve, anything "tech" is off limits, so no electronics, no devices powered by anything but muscle force, no nothing.

Writing and editing without regaining consciousness, heh. Meant "one of them" or "one of the High Gods", of course.

Haven't I edited it for different measurement systems? Well, the point is, their inherited Russian stuff and whatever they've gathered since is built using the metric system, the hand-me-downs from Amazonia are likely to be built in America using the imperial system. Which means everything ever is incompatible between those.

They can mine in the Metahuman zone, and mining around Magadan is canon as per SoA. There are rare earth metals there, diamonds, gold and whatnot.
Most of the industry has to be agriculture, yes, seeing how they have to feed 20+ millions living on permafrost, but then again, the most eco-friendly of traditional heavy industry could be allowed, too.
The electricity question is a good one: I am not aware of any ways to get it clean enough to work. (Right now Yakutia uses diesel and coal plants). Wind generators could, but Siberia doesn't have enough areas with steady high winds for that. They also have great rivers, but building a hydroplant means creating a reservoir, ruining the ecosystems, so kind of a no-no, too. Maybe some kind of in-flow hydroturbines.
Surgut doesn't have arcologies, it has those filtering fabric domes, Denver-style.

Are you going with the traditional understanding of an ace as a high-scoring pilot, not just s highly qualified one? If it's the meaning implied by the term in English, I guess we'll have to change it.
Then again, Russia has been at war for like 40 years on and off, against the Free Poland very recently, so I guess there can be high-scoring aces, too.

The bit on using mages in the Army is in a shadowtalk comment just above the sidebar?

The boomers are more for the good old nuclear deterrance plus the implied super-power status coming with that (if only for the internal consumption).
As for the rest, the logic goes as stated by the shadowtalkers: having enough hardware means more time to wipe the casters before they wipe out you or start playing GGD-style tricks. And I'm reasonably sure ship weaponry is capable of taking on the spirits that mages can send in wave after wave without keeling over from drain.

[Tzeentch]

I'll get to it in Running in Yakut, but basically, my plan is in the Metahuman zone anything goes, except for the stuff like cyberzombies, genetic chimeras, genetic coctails and samesuch. Maybe nanotech, but I'm on the fense about that one. In the Preserve, anything "tech" is off limits, so no electronics, no devices powered by anything but muscle force, no nothing.

-- Ok. But I will note that this is causing some theme dissonance as you jump around between different areas. You may want to actually break that chapter into Zone versus Preserve and describe them separately for the most part. They are to a great extent different worlds, have different rules, and different power players.

Haven't I edited it for different measurement systems? Well, the point is, their inherited Russian stuff and whatever they've gathered since is built using the metric system, the hand-me-downs from Amazonia are likely to be built in America using the imperial system. Which means everything ever is incompatible between those.

-- The Americas are all metric in Shadowrun, and have been for a long time. They actually beat you over the head on this in a few books. The component standards are probably different though, which I think is what you were getting at (that is, bolts are standardized to different sizes, a 20 cubic meter module is sized differently, etc.

Most of the industry has to be agriculture, yes, seeing how they have to feed 20+ millions living on permafrost, but then again, the most eco-friendly of traditional heavy industry could be allowed, too.

-- Mentioned it before, but don't be afraid to outright change the population numbers.

The electricity question is a good one: I am not aware of any ways to get it clean enough to work. (Right now Yakutia uses diesel and coal plants). Wind generators could, but Siberia doesn't have enough areas with steady high winds for that. They also have great rivers, but building a hydroplant means creating a reservoir, ruining the ecosystems, so kind of a no-no, too. Maybe some kind of in-flow hydroturbines.

-- Co-gen wood burning furnaces? They're very efficient if done right.

Are you going with the traditional understanding of an ace as a high-scoring pilot, not just s highly qualified one? If it's the meaning implied by the term in English, I guess we'll have to change it.
Then again, Russia has been at war for like 40 years on and off, against the Free Poland very recently, so I guess there can be high-scoring aces, too.

-- "Ace" as applied to military pilots almost always means an actual, military ace (that is, credited with shooting down some number of enemy combat aircraft). Outside of that it just means "good."

The boomers are more for the good old nuclear deterrance plus the implied super-power status coming with that (if only for the internal consumption).
As for the rest, the logic goes as stated by the shadowtalkers: having enough hardware means more time to wipe the casters before they wipe out you or start playing GGD-style tricks. And I'm reasonably sure ship weaponry is capable of taking on the spirits that mages can send in wave after wave without keeling over from drain.

-- Nuclear deterrence is pretty out-of-them for Shadowrun. It also contributes to the feel I get from reading this that it's like reading a treatise on Russian military activity in the 1990s - a lot of it seems only tangentially Shadowrun related. It would be like reading a sourcebook on the UCAS and it talks a lot about Reforger and military training exercises in Germany, and stuff about tactical nuclear missile deployment. It might be interesting, but it wouldn't really be Shadowrun and would look dated.

[Fatum]

-- Ok. But I will note that this is causing some theme dissonance as you jump around between different areas. You may want to actually break that chapter into Zone versus Preserve and describe them separately for the most part. They are to a great extent different worlds, have different rules, and different power players.

They're still the same country, so the idea of just splitting the file in two is not exactly appealing to me.

-- The Americas are all metric in Shadowrun, and have been for a long time. They actually beat you over the head on this in a few books. The component standards are probably different though, which I think is what you were getting at (that is, bolts are standardized to different sizes, a 20 cubic meter module is sized differently, etc.

Okay, my bad then, this will have to be replaced for something like "All their ships are built to different standards, which must turn maintenance logistics into a horror" etc.

-- Mentioned it before, but don't be afraid to outright change the population numbers.

Yeah, we've discussed it before: it's all give or take a few millions, but the principle problems with it remain the same.

-- Co-gen wood burning furnaces? They're very efficient if done right.

I dunno. I guess they have to get rid of dead standing trees, so this is green enough, but how much power is one getting from this? Is it really enough to power cities?

-- "Ace" as applied to military pilots almost always means an actual, military ace (that is, credited with shooting down some number of enemy combat aircraft). Outside of that it just means "good."

I see. Well, this way or another, in forty years of wars, some will inevitably appear.

-- Nuclear deterrence is pretty out-of-them for Shadowrun.

I'm away from books now, so I can't put my finger at the sources, but Russia possessing a fleet of nuke-armed submarines is canon (just as is it still having ICBMs and tactical nukes). I don't exactly like it, either, but it's there.
National prestige, as seen from the inside, must be the leading reason - but then again, when several countries around you have GGD magic, not to mention the corp arms race, retaliatory strike capacity is a nice thing to have just in case.

It also contributes to the feel I get from reading this that it's like reading a treatise on Russian military activity in the 1990s - a lot of it seems only tangentially Shadowrun related. It would be like reading a sourcebook on the UCAS and it talks a lot about Reforger and military training exercises in Germany, and stuff about tactical nuclear missile deployment. It might be interesting, but it wouldn't really be Shadowrun and would look dated.

Well, it's more like the 2000ies than the 1990ies, since the Armed Forces were mostly doing that "falling apart from zero financing" thing back then, but yeah, my writings are likely drawn out and too focused on the army of a single state instead of generalized warfare overview. If you could point out the exact bits worth cutting in your opinion, we can see about that. On the other hand, while, say, the section on the fleet offers preciously little in the way of directly shadowrun-related hooks, if there's to be a description of a naval combat down the line, shouldn't the readers have an impression of what the force buildup is?

UPD: I've found the thread where we discussed the submarines: here it is.
I also fixed the errors you've pointed out so far, I hope.

[Tzeentch]

BTW could you add page numbers to this document?

- I'm not entirely clear why the Russians have not crushed Yakut, or at least removed their metahuman population as an effective player. It also leads to some questions regarding their (in)effectiveness in Poland (above and beyond writer fiat).

-- Why do soldiers wear K-10 pendants. Is this forced on them? It's also a rare, experimental (and flawed) combat drug, so not sure why it would be common for Russian foot soliders?

-- "Batman" as a term has been pretty much defunct since WWI. Just replace it with "personal aide."

-- Geostationary orbit is a poor location for surveillance satellites. A few LEO satellites could probably provide a reasonable revisit time. Anything more serious you can fly over a suborbital.

-- Actual fission reactors on killsats? Not entirely sure why that would be useful, and you would need highly-enriched fuels (like is used for submarines) to have a decent lifespan (10-15 years). BTW http://www.nato-pa.int/default.asp?SHORTCUT=367 might have some useful notes.

-- For the VV, "crape" is weird. That's a type of fabric from what I gather from Wiki. I would replace that with "crimson" or "rust red" if you are referring to the color. (It also looks humorously close to say "Crap Berets").

-- Wouldn't Amazonia be keeping a lot of equipment for itself since its been fighting Aztlan for years upon years now? I assume this is where most of the countries hard currency goes?

[Fatum]

BTW could you add page numbers to this document?

Well, if google.docs is capable of adding page numbers, I will.

- I'm not entirely clear why the Russians have not crushed Yakut, or at least removed their metahuman population as an effective player. It also leads to some questions regarding their (in)effectiveness in Poland (above and beyond writer fiat).

Because the Yakut have superior magic and terrain familiarity? Or maybe they were affraid of the GGD? If we're talking IC reasons.
OOC an aggressive imperialist power like SR Russia can never win anything for good.

-- Why do soldiers wear K-10 pendants. Is this forced on them? It's also a rare, experimental (and flawed) combat drug, so not sure why it would be common for Russian foot soliders?

It's not like each of them does, but it's meant to be a thing.
K-10 isn't all that rare, minding that it has availability comparable to that of Ares Alpha.

-- "Batman" as a term has been pretty much defunct since WWI. Just replace it with "personal aide."

Well yeah, it seemed strange, but my dictionary only offered "striker" as an alternative, which isn't any better, is it.

-- Geostationary orbit is a poor location for surveillance satellites. A few LEO satellites could probably provide a reasonable revisit time. Anything more serious you can fly over a suborbital.

It is for modern-day ones due to the high altitude, but in SR, optics have significantly improved. Keeping a whole surveillance sat constellation around seems like a bit too much for a nation in SR.
Sats have a great bonus compared to high-altitude recon flights: they're unreachable for spirits.

-- Actual fission reactors on killsats? Not entirely sure why that would be useful, and you would need highly-enriched fuels (like is used for submarines) to have a decent lifespan (10-15 years). BTW http://www.nato-pa.int/default.asp?SHORTCUT=367 might have some useful notes.

For high peak output when feeding the weapons?

-- For the VV, "crape" is weird. That's a type of fabric from what I gather from Wiki. I would replace that with "crimson" or "rust red" if you are referring to the color. (It also looks humorously close to say "Crap Berets").

Crimson's great, will change.

-- Wouldn't Amazonia be keeping a lot of equipment for itself since its been fighting Aztlan for years upon years now? I assume this is where most of the countries hard currency goes?

Well, there's double reasoning here for me. First, foreseeing a war with Atzlan was not all that difficult, so they must've invested in rearmament massively. And all the replaced stuff has to go somewhere. Second, I'm a bit hard-pressed to find alternative sources for Yakut weapons, minding their treatment of the megacorps. I guess they could be buying firearms or armour or something like that on that money they're making on mining, but anything resembling a navy?

[Fatum]

Page numbers inserted.
Rephrased the bit on K-10.
Replaced "batman" with "personal aide", now this text is devoid of superheroes.
Replaced "crape" with "crimson".

[Tzeentch]

Because the Yakut have superior magic and terrain familiarity? Or maybe they were affraid of the GGD? If we're talking IC reasons.
OOC an aggressive imperialist power like SR Russia can never win anything for good.

Without context very little of the military material seems relevant to Shadowrun. The Russians have dozens of mechanized infantry regiments . . . that do absolutely nothing despite whatever is going on in Poland and flareups in Yakut.

Thinking about this a bit I would suggest taking a look at what you have then budget 10,000 words for the Russian section as a whole (splitting Yahut into a separate section). Write yourself a brief outline and then fit everything into that budget -including game mechanics you think are core, and the shadowtalk. Move the vehicles to a separate document and budget it differently.

This will help you pare things down to the core ideas and really throw important/not important into starker contrast. It sounds rough, but it will help the final product a lot.

It is for modern-day ones due to the high altitude, but in SR, optics have significantly improved. Keeping a whole surveillance sat constellation around seems like a bit too much for a nation in SR.
Sats have a great bonus compared to high-altitude recon flights: they're unreachable for spirits.

Suborbitals are just as unreachable AFAIK. And having the satellites in GEO isn't advantageous even with SR optics (which btw are nothing special from what I can tell), since even if they were godlike they would be even more godlike closer up.

[Fatum]

Without context very little of the military material seems relevant to Shadowrun.

Yeah see, the goal of the alt.War project is not just describing the particular beef between the Russians and the Yakutians, it's giving a wider context of military might used in Shadowrun. So for that I'm using two sufficiently different Armed Forces, to give the readers an idea of how those things can work at all, and how they can differ. Hence the sidebars on "X in the military", etc.

The Russians have dozens of mechanized infantry regiments . . . that do absolutely nothing despite whatever is going on in Poland and flareups in Yakut.

Well, who do you think was fighting in Poland before it got its independence after the Second Crush, and who fights the border skirmishes with Yakut? Who controlled the conquests of the Border Wars and the first stage of the First Eurowar? Who fought simultaneously in Finland, Germany, Austria, Czech, Siberia, and then in addition Caucasus?

Thinking about this a bit I would suggest taking a look at what you have then budget 10,000 words for the Russian section as a whole (splitting Yahut into a separate section). Write yourself a brief outline and then fit everything into that budget -including game mechanics you think are core, and the shadowtalk.

Uh. The current amount of info on Russia, both on civilian life and military, is a little more than thrice that. That's some 88 pages in Google.Docs, counting the pictures (I strongly suspect the pdf will be smaller, judging by the precedent with Cyborgs Unveiled). Meanwhile, Atzlan, the book on another major nation of the Sixth World, is 197 pages long. Tir na Nog is 178, Tir Tairngire 158, Germany Sourcebook 171, London Sourcebook describes a single city on 170. I'm too lazy to reach for my Berlin Sourcebook right now, but trust me it's rather fat, too.

This will help you pare things down to the core ideas and really throw important/not important into starker contrast. It sounds rough, but it will help the final product a lot.

What exactly do you want to see as the end result? Sixth World Almanac? Shadows of Asia, with barely a two-sentence paragraph to describe a city?

Suborbitals are just as unreachable AFAIK.

As per Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, p.24, their entire flight path is through the Gaiasphere.

And having the satellites in GEO isn't advantageous even with SR optics (which btw are nothing special from what I can tell), since even if they were godlike they would be even more godlike closer up.

Well if you don't consider having contact lenses that eliminate any range penalties a few kilometers out to be special, I don't know what special is.
Okay, right, from LEO a spysat will be able to make out not just the stars on their shoulder straps, but also the stains on their ends. But is that really necessary?

[Tzeentch]

Yeah see, the goal of the alt.War project is not just describing the particular beef between the Russians and the Yakutians, it's giving a wider context of military might used in Shadowrun. So for that I'm using two sufficiently different Armed Forces, to give the readers an idea of how those things can work at all, and how they can differ. Hence the sidebars on "X in the military", etc.

I suggest paring things down to help see what is central to your design goal. The Shadows of Latin America stuff is really good, partly because they stuck to some wordcount limits and thus avoided any meandering or off-topic discussions (not surprising given the origins of the drafts).

What exactly do you want to see as the end result? Sixth World Almanac? Shadows of Asia, with barely a two-sentence paragraph to describe a city?

10,000 words is a considerable amount of text. And yes, sometimes that means you have to focus on certain elements and leave other parts to the imagination.

As per Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life, p.24, their entire flight path is through the Gaiasphere.

See Magic in the Shadows, p. 86 for more detail. For some reason I don't see much on this in Hazard Pay or Street Magic.

Well if you don't consider having contact lenses that eliminate any range penalties a few kilometers out to be special, I don't know what special is.
Okay, right, from LEO a spysat will be able to make out not just the stars on their shoulder straps, but also the stains on their ends. But is that really necessary?

Image magnification in SR5 is x50 (digital) zoom. It reduces range penalties by one category. It no longer knocks range penalties to Short like it did in SR4A.

[Fatum]

I suggest paring things down to help see what is central to your design goal. The Shadows of Latin America stuff is really good, partly because they stuck to some wordcount limits and thus avoided any meandering or off-topic discussions (not surprising given the origins of the drafts).

Shadows of Latin America is written to comply with the guidelines set by the rest of the Shadows of Worldpart books. Yakut Shuffle is written to look more like single country setting books mentioned above.

10,000 words is a considerable amount of text. And yes, sometimes that means you have to focus on certain elements and leave other parts to the imagination.

About 20 pages, to be precise.
Now, please explain, why is it necessary to cut two thirds of existing material? So that the writing would comply the usual style lately, where whole organizations are described on a quarter of a page? What's the benefit? We're not printing this, so no page limit looms.
I'll explain my hesitation: imagine that I agreed to do just that, the most obvious candidate for being thrown away would be that couple of pages on the 382 MSP (p.64 and on). Still, of the three times I've seen my work praised, that part was mentioned in two.

See Magic in the Shadows, p. 86 for more detail. For some reason I don't see much on this in Hazard Pay or Street Magic.

Because CGL lol. Anyway, Gaiasphere is canonically out to some 100km, suborbitals fly at 60 to 80.

Image magnification in SR5 is x50 (digital) zoom. It reduces range penalties by one category. It no longer knocks range penalties to Short like it did in SR4A.

Yes, SR5 also makes datachips and RFIDs finger-sized, cyberware twice more expensive, and so on, and so for. So despite 50x in contacts still being several times better than what we can possibly have now, I'm going to ignore SR5 tech "developments" as complete and utter fucking bullshit written by rabid monkeys 3E fanboys.

[Tzeentch]

About 20 pages, to be precise.
Now, please explain, why is it necessary to cut two thirds of existing material?

Consider it a writing exercise. You have a lot of "so what" material, and this can help you pare down to a more manageable size and direct focus. Most of the material on the Russian fleets could be reduced to a c-header and italic subheads, for example, and probably not lose any major plot points. (i.e. A-HEAD:Russian Military, B-HEAD:Navy, C-HEAD:Fleets).

So that the writing would comply the usual style lately, where whole organizations are described on a quarter of a page? What's the benefit? We're not printing this, so no page limit looms.

The benefit is for the reader. Huge fanbooks are interesting, but often hard to read because they are so cluttered and expansive. I know, I wrote a 200+ page Matrix sourcebook. Was it worth it? Looking back, probably not. I got more use out of hacking the book into parts that could slot into smaller articles and projects. Which is why I suggest that here.

I'll explain my hesitation: imagine that I agreed to do just that, the most obvious candidate for being thrown away would be that couple of pages on the 382 MSP (p.64 and on). Still, of the three times I've seen my work praised, that part was mentioned in two.

You may want to consider modularizing the work into sections in such a case.

Yes, SR5 also makes datachips and RFIDs finger-sized, cyberware twice more expensive, and so on, and so for. So despite 50x in contacts still being several times better than what we can possibly have now, I'm going to ignore SR5 tech "developments" as complete and utter fucking bullshit written by rabid monkeys 3E fanboys.

<shrug>

[Fatum]

Consider it a writing exercise.

I'd rather consider it a pleasant pastime.

You have a lot of "so what" material, and this can help you pare down to a more manageable size and direct focus.

I think this to be the case for the army stuff in general. Like, stats for tanks and cruise missiles? Stats for a fucking THOR shot, like War! had? What's the practical use for most groups?

Most of the material on the Russian fleets could be reduced to a c-header and italic subheads, for example, and probably not lose any major plot points. (i.e. A-HEAD:Russian Military, B-HEAD:Navy, C-HEAD:Fleets).

Yeah, no doubt the navy part is rather poor on plothooks, possibly because there's little for the runners to do with military ships other than sabotage.
On the other hand, part of the purpose of the writing is giving GMs an idea of how things work - like our discussion on Russian boomer subs I linked a couple posts ago. So a German thinking "hmm, it'd be cool if my players were engaged with some kind of nuclear sub highjack, I wonder if they're around" would be able to find both whether they're in fact still around (and this is why I mention Stormvogel and Stormbringer), and why could that be minding the 60 years of revolutionary changes to warfare.

You may want to consider modularizing the work into sections in such a case.

This is absolutely what is happening; after all, a finished item is likely to be fuckhundred pages long. The chapters are rather self-contained: overview of Russia, overview of Yakut; Russian Armed Forces, Yakut Armed Forces, Sagan Zaba Armed Forces; history of the campaign and the roles runners can play in it; military equipment. It's likely to be four tomes, as separated by semicolons - after all, Sagan Zaba doesn't have a chapter on peaceful life there, so splitting by country won't really work. Or maybe three, with the actual campaign and the game info making one volume. I'd say the degree of completion is about 80, 80; 70, 60, 0; 10, 70 percent, respectively.

<shrug>

I can see tech degradation and no tech development due to catastrophic events, but 5E had nothing of the kind, so I'm just calling shehanigans. The whole current metaplot direction is subpar: it's either driving legacy subplots into the ground, or developing uncreative new ones. Technology rebels to possess humans? Yeah, Shadowrun has never seen anything like that.

[Tzeentch]

I think this to be the case for the army stuff in general. Like, stats for tanks and cruise missiles? Stats for a fucking THOR shot, like War! had? What's the practical use for most groups?

They would have been plenty practical, if the description and damage codes for the Thor shots made more sense. You can probably shoot for a higher bar than War!, though.

Yeah, no doubt the navy part is rather poor on plothooks, possibly because there's little for the runners to do with military ships other than sabotage.

That might be handled as a specifically Navy campaign, with the players as troubleshooters on a patrol boat or the crew of a small special ops minisub.

I can see tech degradation and no tech development due to catastrophic events, but 5E had nothing of the kind, so I'm just calling shehanigans. The whole current metaplot direction is subpar: it's either driving legacy subplots into the ground, or developing uncreative new ones. Technology rebels to possess humans? Yeah, Shadowrun has never seen anything like that.

I'm a bit more sanguine about that level of Shadowrun, having seen how "the sausage is made." I also skipped SR4 so it's actually nice to see some of the "throwback" elements. And some of the legacy subplots were little more than sketches of ideas, there's not much to "run into the ground" if you are thinking there was some master plan behind things like the Washington Rift, the Amazonian war, Ghostwalker, and so on.

[Fatum]

They would have been plenty practical, if the description and damage codes for the Thor shots made more sense. You can probably shoot for a higher bar than War!, though.

If you remember, older books did not even give stats for tanks. "You're not dealing with a tank head on, period". I don't think this approach ideal, because what if the runners steal said tank, but I can certainly see the reasoning behind it.
And let's be fair, most of the military toys, everything past light armour, heavier firearms and maybe small-caliber artillery is right out of the scope of Shadowrun. Ships only need stats for maybe some large scale battles runners might participate in, but surely runners are not controlling or engaging an aircraft carrier the way they would a Mobmaster.

That might be handled as a specifically Navy campaign, with the players as troubleshooters on a patrol boat or the crew of a small special ops minisub.

Maybe I'll write a chapterette on GMing Shadowrun military campaigns, a-la Fields of Fire. Like, "how can your table use the info in this book", "typical shadowrunner jobs in the armed forces", that kind of thing.

I'm a bit more sanguine about that level of Shadowrun, having seen how "the sausage is made." I also skipped SR4 so it's actually nice to see some of the "throwback" elements. And some of the legacy subplots were little more than sketches of ideas, there's not much to "run into the ground" if you are thinking there was some master plan behind things like the Washington Rift, the Amazonian war, Ghostwalker, and so on.

Maybe you're more optimistic precisely because you skipped the late fourth. Even if there were no solid subplots planned, which is naturally usually the case, there was potential for conflict and interesting plot development (that's, btw, what I'm trying to do in this fan supplement, but I'm not sure if I'm leaving a bit too much to GM fiat). So the resolution of that conflict, - oh, Atzlan vs Amazonia? well, they made peace, Atzlan getting 20 km worth of territory, and they also almost killed a Great Dragon, except they didn't! - is extremely disappointing.
Speaking metaphorically, it's as if some prior book describes an arcology, and you start imagining all the cool things that might be inside, only to find in a latter book that there's nothing but dust there. A solid plothook, driven right into the ground.

Not to mention the internal inconsistencies (see the beginning of this thread, SK chapter in Corporate Guide says SK got the Russian Matrix contract, Evo chapter says Evo did), horrific editing (Tadashi-Tadeshi thrice on a single page, dragon "hordes" and samesuch), unbelievably shitty stats, and the general nonsense in the plot development.

[Tzeentch]

If you remember, older books did not even give stats for tanks.

-- That was also in the "military are NPC game-ending threats" era as well. From reading Fields of Fire and other books that touched on military issues, I don't think the original authors really grokked military stuff. Plus tank battles doesn't really fit neatly into the thematic style that Shadowrun was pursuing. The game scope has gotten larger over time, and more of the authors came in with a military background (e.g. Jon Szeto, myself).

Maybe I'll write a chapterette on GMing Shadowrun military campaigns, a-la Fields of Fire. Like, "how can your table use the info in this book", "typical shadowrunner jobs in the armed forces", that kind of thing.

-- Most of the archetype roles have military analogues, especially if you orient the campaign towards special forces operators and direct action agents. It doesn't hurt to provide some broad guidelines. GURPS Special Ops might be a useful resource.

Maybe you're more optimistic precisely because you skipped the late fourth.

-- I hear that a lot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Atzlan getting 20 km worth of territory, and they also almost killed a Great Dragon, except they didn't! - is extremely disappointing.

-- Actually I didn't mind all that. At least they brought that to a conclusion, it had been dragging on WAY too long. Of course, that makes the Bogota situation a bit anti-climatic.
-- The Lofywr/Alamais part was a head-scratcher. I didn't get a whole lot out of that section with regards to Shadowrun military activity besides "don't line up like in GI Joe, open fire, and expect that to work well."

Speaking metaphorically, it's as if some prior book describes an arcology, and you start imagining all the cool things that might be inside, only to find in a latter book that there's nothing but dust there. A solid plothook, driven right into the ground.

-- I can see that it might have been built up a bit much. Personally I wish War! had focused more on conflict in general, and not the slow-motion train wreck of the Aztlan-Amazonian conflict that I am hard pressed to come up with reasons I should have cared about in the first place.

Not to mention the internal inconsistencies (see the beginning of this thread, SK chapter in Corporate Guide says SK got the Russian Matrix contract, Evo chapter says Evo did), horrific editing (Tadashi-Tadeshi thrice on a single page, dragon "hordes" and samesuch), unbelievably shitty stats, and the general nonsense in the plot development.

-- Canon inconsistencies are a problem, but not inexcusable. Yeah, I've noted the stats before, in the War! thread for example. Running the numbers isn't something that many people find fun, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

That was also in the "military are NPC game-ending threats" era as well.

You know, between the approach in FoF, "Don't even think of ever taking this thing head on", and the approach in War! And MilSpecTech, "Okay, here are the stats for a tank - you can't punch through its hardened armour with most all weapons, including tank guns and naval main calibers, and it also flies as fast as a plane; oh and remember supercarriers? here are the stats for those!", I personally vastly prefer the first option. Runners are not frontline grunts, and they don't normally have multi-million toys to play in that league otherwise.

It doesn't hurt to provide some broad guidelines. GURPS Special Ops might be a useful resource.

That's word and page count. And yeah, GURPS is a good resource generally if you want to make something believably realistic.

At least they brought that to a conclusion, it had been dragging on WAY too long. Of course, that makes the Bogota situation a bit anti-climatic.
I wish War! had focused more on conflict in general, and not the slow-motion train wreck of the Aztlan-Amazonian conflict that I am hard pressed to come up with reasons I should have cared about in the first place.

War! was meant to use that war as a typical example of a conflict, but failed spectacularly.
Now, as to why you should have cared... You see, a large part of Shadowrun's appeal, as for me, is its diverse setting, where countries are different and interesting, - like, this one is a corporate state, that one is Amerinds selling their land to the Man amid internal strife, and that one over there is a troll magical kingdom. This is the feel I am aiming to capture in Yakut Shuffle (dunno if successful or not), and one that has been steadily downplayed in the Fourth - see the new Japanese policies, or the Berlin storyline, etc.
Amazonia is a nation with a lot of flavour and potential - a magical ecologically-minded country headed by dragons and no stranger to blood magic. Atzlan is great this way, too, for reasons obvious. Their conflict had long been set up, and held lots of potential for awesome - both sides had blood mages with loci in their disposal, both sides generally had fearsome magic and military, except one was more focused on technology, and the other on the Awakened. This was what this war could have been. Instead, hurr durr Bogota, hurr durr devil trees.

The Lofywr/Alamais part was a head-scratcher.

Nah, I meant Atzlan killing Sirrurg (except not quite).

As for the Lofwyr-Alamais affair, it was a total catastrophe. I can't even list all the reasons, why.
1) Utter failure in dragon characterization.
A) Dragons are some of the most powerful creatures of the world not because of being flying magical IFVs (tanks in the case of Greats), but because they're schemers and conspirators. Alamais turning from a powerful behind-the-scene destabilization source working with terrorist cells and extremists into a mindless predator is absolutely absurd.
B) Runners are certainly not privy to the decisions of the Greats kurultai. Not even the jackpointers. And if some are and they spill the beans, they are not long for this world.
C) inconsistencies in personal characterization. In addition to the retardation of Alamais, Lofwyr has always been a dragon supremacist - yet now he apparently orders metahumans to finish off his brother, Alamais is so extreme a dragon supremacist his dragons attack his own metahuman forces, yet in addition to wholly functionally superior magical devices he also uses metahuman tech, etc.
D) Inconsistencies in fluff: the Loremaster is neither a ruler nor a spokesperson for the dragons; dragons are well capable of protecting their lairs with minions and magic, etc.
2) Utter failure in runner characterization.
Runners are not be all - end all hirelings. Stormfront describes runners as being used as frontline troops (are there even enough runners in the world to form a division? How many of them are stupid enough not only to make a deal with a dragon, but dive into actual military warfare on that drafon's behalf?). But this is not all. Melee fighting a Great Dragon? Runners. Retrieving a hoard of an exiled dragon? Runners (hey, they can be trusted with valuables after all, right?)! Protecting a dragon's lair? Not Awakened or metahuman minions, runners!
3) Utter failure in describing warfare.
Basically, none of the operation as it is described makes sense. Staging area for a few thousand irregulars gathered to replace an army just a few kilometers away from the enemy's position, that is not harried once? Ambushes that start a panic, but are not followed up by a developing attack? Unprotected minefields? Dragons attacking own allies, and using breath weapons, maws and claws and goddamn fucking grenades?!
Etc etc etc, I think I've described my impressions.

Canon inconsistencies are a problem, but not inexcusable.

I have no problems with fluff inconsistencies if they're playing on unreliable nature of the narration in the books to slighty retcon things for the better. When they're just failures to look up stuff and coordinate writing effort, they are inexcusable errors on the editors' and coordinator's side - they're simply not doing their job.

Yeah, I've noted the stats before, in the War! thread for example. Running the numbers isn't something that many people find fun, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hell, you don't even need to run the numbers not to make errors like these. Just read the goddamn fragging descriptions of vehicle upgrades, and don't add Improved Suspension on APCs and Improved Ballast Tanks on carriers! This is just sloppy, disrespecting both own work and the reader.

[Tzeentch]

You know, between the approach in FoF, "Don't even think of ever taking this thing head on", and the approach in War! And MilSpecTech, "Okay, here are the stats for a tank - you can't punch through its hardened armour with most all weapons, including tank guns and naval main calibers, and it also flies as fast as a plane; oh and remember supercarriers? here are the stats for those!", I personally vastly prefer the first option. Runners are not frontline grunts, and they don't normally have multi-million toys to play in that league otherwise.

-- The current freelancers get a lot of flack on this, but do remember that this escalation started back in Cyberpirates. If anything, the overall scale has actually dropped down since Rigger 3. Hence the various jokes about Rigger always being the sourcebook that detonates the current edition (until SR5 that is).

War! was meant to use that war as a typical example of a conflict, but failed spectacularly.

-- Was that how it was advertised? (I honestly don't know)
-- If so, I think it was a bad example of a 'typical' conflict, if just because it was being fought between two very large, centrally directed and largely stable, nations that were heavily invested in Awakened forces.

Now, as to why you should have cared... You see, a large part of Shadowrun's appeal, as for me, is its diverse setting, where countries are different and interesting, - like, this one is a corporate state, that one is Amerinds selling their land to the Man amid internal strife, and that one over there is a troll magical kingdom. This is the feel I am aiming to capture in Yakut Shuffle (dunno if successful or not), and one that has been steadily downplayed in the Fourth - see the new Japanese policies, or the Berlin storyline, etc.

-- There's an ebb and flow to plotlines. Some fail (I don't consider the Halley's Comet stuff to be very good, in retrospect) and others succeed for reasons I am puzzled by (shedim, guess they rode the zombie popularity surge).
-- I like your setting information stuff a lot. My main issue is with the amount of material devoted to 'encyclopedia' entries on the military side (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Amazonia is a nation with a lot of flavour and potential - a magical ecologically-minded country headed by dragons and no stranger to blood magic. Atzlan is great this way, too, for reasons obvious. Their conflict had long been set up, and held lots of potential for awesome - both sides had blood mages with loci in their disposal, both sides generally had fearsome magic and military, except one was more focused on technology, and the other on the Awakened. This was what this war could have been. Instead, hurr durr Bogota, hurr durr devil trees.

-- True.

Nah, I meant Atzlan killing Sirrurg (except not quite).

-- Didn't mind that, like I said. His stats were completely disconnected from the fiction, however.

As for the Lofwyr-Alamais affair, it was a total catastrophe. I can't even list all the reasons, why.

-- Yeah I can agree with a lot of these. The Jackpointers having the ultimate inside scoop on everything and hoarding that info among the what, 20 regulars, was a strange decision at the beginning of 4e. I know the reasons why (the stable of shadowtalkers was getting out of hand, for one thing), but I am not a huge fan of how it worked throughout the edition.

Hell, you don't even need to run the numbers not to make errors like these. Just read the goddamn fragging descriptions of vehicle upgrades, and don't add Improved Suspension on APCs and Improved Ballast Tanks on carriers! This is just sloppy, disrespecting both own work and the reader.

-- Well, blame the Arsenal writers for that one. There's only two levels of Ballast Tanks. One for shallow water, and the other for literally everything else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

-- The current freelancers get a lot of flack on this, but do remember that this escalation started back in Cyberpirates. If anything, the overall scale has actually dropped down since Rigger 3. Hence the various jokes about Rigger always being the sourcebook that detonates the current edition (until SR5 that is).

Can't quite remember howitzer, THOR shot or carrier stats in either of those.

-- Was that how it was advertised? (I honestly don't know)

It was advertised as a book about military conflicts in the Sixth World, not THE conflict, yes.

-- If so, I think it was a bad example of a 'typical' conflict, if just because it was being fought between two very large, centrally directed and largely stable, nations that were heavily invested in Awakened forces.

By the 70ies, that seems more like a rule than an exception.

-- There's an ebb and flow to plotlines. Some fail (I don't consider the Halley's Comet stuff to be very good, in retrospect) and others succeed for reasons I am puzzled by (shedim, guess they rode the zombie popularity surge).

Sure. But it's still sad to see a promising one driven into the ground.
Also, Halley's Comet gave us catgirls.

-- I like your setting information stuff a lot. My main issue is with the amount of material devoted to 'encyclopedia' entries on the military side (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well I'm trying to fit in the stuff War! lacked.

Didn't mind that, like I said. His stats were completely disconnected from the fiction, however.

I wouldn't really mind if they killed him (although, to be fair, at this speed, we're running out of Greats really soon).
My problem with that piece of fluff is precisely that all the commotion was seemingly for nothing.

The Jackpointers having the ultimate inside scoop on everything and hoarding that info among the what, 20 regulars, was a strange decision at the beginning of 4e. I know the reasons why (the stable of shadowtalkers was getting out of hand, for one thing), but I am not a huge fan of how it worked throughout the edition.

I have no problem with a stable set of shadowtalkers (althought admittedly I'd prefer a larger set, maybe at least three experts on every topic), just the fact that they know entirely too much, and entirely too reliably.

-- Well, blame the Arsenal writers for that one. There's only two levels of Ballast Tanks. One for shallow water, and the other for literally everything else (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

None of the naval vessels in War, except subs, needed Ballast Tanks at all. Cargo ships, cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers are not supposed to be submersible.
Oh, and CGL, of course, refuses to acknowledge the blunder.

[Fatum]

Uploaded a tiny chapterette on Yakut crime, and also added some art here and there. I consider the pic on p.48 an especially lucky find (it's from Harlequin's Back)!

[NeoJudas]

Couple things (yeah, I've been silent for a bit).

Fatum... I like the expansions and clean-ups you've done. THANK YOU. I appreciate deeply the ideas and filler material you are giving to us here.

Tzeentch ... ah guy, long time no see. Should've expected to hear more out of you with SR5's release and you've not let me down.

Do have a few things, flow-of-consciousness type responses here:

In-Flow hydroelectic power is stunningly efficient now and could readily be done in the urban areas with rivers readily as part of the flow-controls. Build a canal for some of the water. End of discussion.

Piezo-electric streets. Japan is about to do them now, real world. Test zones have been established. The amount of power is staggering. We recently applied the technology to the Trans-Siberian Railroad (the ties and rails) and came up with power measured WAAAAAY Beyond the Megawatt ranges.

Solar-Domes ... it's a joke idea we once had here. Get a Light Spell, throw in "Elemental (Sunlight)" build a dome with the interior as solar-cell. Cast Spell. Quicken (especially with SR5 Quickening... gasp). Readily available option that is both tech and magic and not hard to do.

Military - "Russia" has always used the military powers actions/responses as a means of keeping people both employed and busy (idle hands, Idle Minds, etc...). This is no exception. It is a methodology that each generation teaches to the next through exemplification. Sadly, it is also the reason that "Russia" will never be capable of taking out Yakutian Forces let alone anything else like Evo (Yamatetsu-NT). Too many lined pockets ... I mean, how do you think Putin has become to rich again???

I *REALLY* liked the idea of Permits/Licenses for Firearms/Ranged Weapons in alterations. I would not however adjust the "AVAILABILITY" of such stuff. In fact, as taken by recent examples here in the US right now, the more people you have with permits (and an interest in self-preservation) the more uncommon/rare stuff like ammunition becomes. But I have to admit this gave me all sorts of ideas of what "Grandma teaches the kids instead of farming".

Fatum, you mention editing options in the material, but I couldn't seem to do anything in shadowtalk areas or suggestions to stuff as I read through it again. Help?

[Tzeentch]

Tzeentch ... ah guy, long time no see. Should've expected to hear more out of you with SR5's release and you've not let me down.

-- I actually like the throwback elements of SR5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In-Flow hydroelectic power is stunningly efficient now and could readily be done in the urban areas with rivers readily as part of the flow-controls. Build a canal for some of the water. End of discussion.

-- It probably doesn't need to be described in any detail, nor do you really need to get into inconvenient stuff like rivers freezing and such (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Piezo-electric streets. Japan is about to do them now, real world. Test zones have been established. The amount of power is staggering. We recently applied the technology to the Trans-Siberian Railroad (the ties and rails) and came up with power measured WAAAAAY Beyond the Megawatt ranges.

-- Maintaining rail and road with concrete and wooden ties is hard enough. I'm going to stay cynical on large scale rollouts of this kind of thing.

Solar-Domes ... it's a joke idea we once had here. Get a Light Spell, throw in "Elemental (Sunlight)" build a dome with the interior as solar-cell. Cast Spell. Quicken (especially with SR5 Quickening... gasp). Readily available option that is both tech and magic and not hard to do.

-- Yeah, there's a lot of "something for nothing" in the rules. My current favorite is explosive power generation using the crazy "chunky salsa" rules, as the casing only needs to withstand the initial blast wave.

[Fatum]

First of all, I'd like to note I'm writing stuff on religion, but left my draft at work :3

Fatum... I like the expansions and clean-ups you've done. THANK YOU. I appreciate deeply the ideas and filler material you are giving to us here.

It's always nice to hear someone's reading all that gibberish.
On a side note, I met an enthusiastic Russian Shadowrun player off this site by chance - turns out she's read my fan supplements! I'M A SUPERSTAR!

In-Flow hydroelectic power is stunningly efficient now and could readily be done in the urban areas with rivers readily as part of the flow-controls. Build a canal for some of the water. End of discussion.

Yeah, the port facilities in RL Yakutsk had a lot of dredging done on Lena as it is.

Solar-Domes ... it's a joke idea we once had here. Get a Light Spell, throw in "Elemental (Sunlight)" build a dome with the interior as solar-cell. Cast Spell. Quicken (especially with SR5 Quickening... gasp). Readily available option that is both tech and magic and not hard to do.

Ha, yeah, that's an example of a popular set of ideas on seemingly free energy production in Shadowrun. I've referenced that idea in my write-up of Novosibirsk, with an experimental powerplant burning out the mana in its vicinity and becoming a void used by the UGB to store dangerous magical artifacts it comes across.

Military - "Russia" has always used the military powers actions/responses as a means of keeping people both employed and busy (idle hands, Idle Minds, etc...). This is no exception. It is a methodology that each generation teaches to the next through exemplification.

Do you mean the military-industrial complex, or the conscript army? Because if it's the former, well, Russia's not the one with the largest one around, and it's acting as a drive for the high-tech industry in the country. If it's the former, well, we have a hilariously low population density, so when the generals explain we need a conscript army to have everyone prepared for defense should the worst come to worst, I can see the logic behind it. Or maybe it's just WWII PTSD.

Sadly, it is also the reason that "Russia" will never be capable of taking out Yakutian Forces let alone anything else like Evo (Yamatetsu-NT). Too many lined pockets ... I mean, how do you think Putin has become to rich again???

I am not so sure about Yakutian forces, because they're not really a well-oiled machine, either. What I plan for the actual campaign is a lot of fighting with little progress made, then the Russian army grinding forward slowly, only to be stopped by various setbacks and covert operations. You can see parts of those plans in the draft (in red). I'm not planning on writing up anything final and definitive, instead leaving the fate of the war up to the GMs (and runner actions) to decide.
Why would Russia take on Evo? Evo is a megacorp, not a military organization, it's exercising a whole other type of soft power, which basically already lands Russia in its pocket, especially now after SK role in Poland debacle.
I'm not exactly sure how Putin became so rich, especially minding that we have no definitive proof of him personally being rich to begin with :ь

I *REALLY* liked the idea of Permits/Licenses for Firearms/Ranged Weapons in alterations. I would not however adjust the "AVAILABILITY" of such stuff. In fact, as taken by recent examples here in the US right now, the more people you have with permits (and an interest in self-preservation) the more uncommon/rare stuff like ammunition becomes. But I have to admit this gave me all sorts of ideas of what "Grandma teaches the kids instead of farming".

Well, it's an idea I picked from older books - remember those had legality tables, border crossing tables, price adjustment tables? I'm not going for all of those, but I'm going to mention.
It seems to you that ammo is harder to get because you're on a free market, used to open supply. I can assure you that had ammo been illegal to acquire (or even requiring a difficult to acquire license), it'd be much harder to find and buy.
Heck, for a license-only stuff, you can still just walk into a shop and get some for a fake SIN/license. With illegal stuff, or if you want the license-only stuff without the record, you have to resort to dealing in the underworld - and it's much harder a task than just buying from an established shop. So naturally it raises Availability.

Fatum, you mention editing options in the material, but I couldn't seem to do anything in shadowtalk areas or suggestions to stuff as I read through it again. Help?

I remember sharing it for the whole net, but apparently I reconsidered some time in the past. I'll give you access as soon as you give me your mail address, though.