Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[Yerameyahu]

As the thread shows, it's not a very strict limit. System + 6 still lets you do some pretty impressive things; Rating 12 is not 'okay'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Rating 12 is WAR! If you let a nexus program anything (because they're unlimited), then you could build a minimal one for a couple grand. The examples start at just 5000¥.

I guess it still comes down to the GM controlling time as a resource. Otherwise, the point is that a hacker with no karma can (easily) beat the technomancer and the AI, just by taking enough time (and by that we mean a few months, perhaps). While I don't love the way 'awakened' characters tend to trounce, they do deserve something for their investment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

I disagree that a hacker needs more skills than others.

I was thinking: cybercombat; electronic warfare; hacking; software; computer; and data search. This is certainly more than face, techno-anything, mage, or sammy, but you might argue that a good hacker doesn't need all that.

Unwired gives sample nodes/security setups; if it's so easy to get high-rating programs, it's unreasonable for the sample nodes to be so low. It's the 'corps already have thousands of people just like you' concept. Some people think runners are more special than that. *shrug* I think Einsteins are vanishingly rare.

Ah. Well, it's not any easier to get high rating programs if we raise the max for high ratings. It just allows us to go farther.

It sounds like all your players take a bit of hacker. Does each one specialize in a certain area? Our GM gears more toward making/allowing everyone to do a bit of diplomacy, and leaves hacking to the specialized.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, I'd certainly argue that a hacker doesn't need all of those. What skills do you think those other archetypes need, exactly? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm not sure what you mean. It's not really any *harder* to get the high-rating programs (I'd love an exponential or otherwise increasing Threshold/interval, for example). But my point was that we're given sample nodes; if you can beat those, you're beating entire IT departments of major nation-corporations. By yourself, armed with a cheap nexus and a few sleepless nights.

(Another aside. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I do think everyone in the Sixth World needs a little 'hacker', just as everyone must be able to shoot a gun and dodge. The specialists certainly shine, and they're the ones breaking nodes. But leaving every little data search or security feature to 'the hacker' is as lame as leaving *every* conversation to the face. It makes sense, but only to a point.)

[ggodo]

I was thinking: cybercombat; electronic warfare; hacking; software; computer; and data search. This is certainly more than face, techno-anything, mage, or sammy, but you might argue that a good hacker doesn't need all that.

Ah. Well, it's not any easier to get high rating programs if we raise the max for high ratings. It just allows us to go farther.

It sounds like all your players take a bit of hacker. Does each one specialize in a certain area? Our GM gears more toward making/allowing everyone to do a bit of diplomacy, and leaves hacking to the specialized.

That's mostly cuz no one else took the skills. I also think it's more important for everyone to be capable of handling themselves in social situations, simply because it's more likely you will have to talk to someone than hack something. It's kinda like how 0 level skill is rather competent. I assume you guys can google at 0, but you won't be as good as the guy who has his own search engine that automatically cross-correlates a half dozen databases. You don't need to be This Guy to talk to folks, but he'll do it better.

[PoliteMan]

I think there's a couple different arguments going on and I'd like to summarize them. Please let me know if you think I missed one or misrepresented one.

#1

I think the rules are supposed to break down after rating 6.

Maybe, but if so they've already been broken. Technos and AIs already do it, hackers have access to ware which boosts their rolls, and adepts can boost their skills. There might be balance concerns, which I'll address later, but if R7+ is broken then the game is already broken and we should adjust, not pretend that the R6 cap is real when it plainly isn't.

#2

I don't know what this 'everyone else' you're talking about is. Technomancers are supposed to be special, and they pay ungodly karma for it; literally everyone shouldn't be able to surpass it for free.

Aren't Sprites, Echoes, Threading, and the Resonance Realm special enough (or awesome qualities like Rootkit and, well basically immortality for AIs)? Unique abilities with interesting effects are good special. Having only one guy having access to some stuff which is just plain superior doesn't make the character special in any useful way, just in a "over 9000" way.

#3

There are plenty of things on the market that players still can't get (nuclear subs, or simply rare F gear). There's no great reason to assume that you *can* make (but apparently not buy—even illegally) things that aren't on the gear tables. We know, for example, that there's a solid reason you can't get ActiveSofts above 4.

We know these thing exist and we have clear rules for building them (in a system which is usually impossibly vague on how to build things). I don't see a RAW problem here. They exist, we all know they exist, and the rules for coding them are (kinda) clear.

#4

You can't say 'except for the optimized builds', because they totally outclass the poor normals. And they're not monstrosities that the GM can smack off the table. They're just guys with high Logic and skill, basically. So, optimized is a requirement, and being broken is the norm.

It is just not that difficult to get 12-15 dice on a roll based on programs, skills, Logic, and wares. And getting new, superior equipment every couple sessions isn't breaking the game, it's usually called getting paid and getting Karma. You're not getting the new programs instantly, it'll take a couple of sessions which is about in line with how most games advance: the characters steadily and predictably get more powerful. How is coding an R7+ program fundamentally different from buying a better gun/car/initiating? Yes, the hacker gets more dice in certain areas, so will the other players and so should the opposition.

#5

My point is that these heights are accessible only to purpose-optimized programmers, apparently *aren't* achieved by megacorps, and only break things worse. Why would you want something in your game that is apparently impossible (for trillion-dollar companies), is unnecessary, and breaking?

#1 I absolutely agree that megacorps (or at least certain departments) should have R7+ systems.
#2 While it does seem kinda weird, there are fluffy reasons for hackers to be able to code things that corps couldn't. (1) Hackers can steal and mix-and-match code from various companies. Mix the best of the SK, MCT, and Horizon Stealth systems without worrying about copyright or corporate reprisals. (2) Small user base. If SK releases a new Analyze program, hundreds of millions of people will use it and everyone will be able to study it and patch their Stealth systems to take advantage of it's flaws. Code evolves regularly. Hackers can step outside that and if they find a few unique ways to improve the code, bonus. (3) Money doesn't always equal quality. Yes, mega corp teams have lots of money and researchers but they have a variety of constraints that independents don't have, like marketing people. Compare Linux or Firefox to corporate products nowadays and it doesn't seem too crazy.


And now for something completely different: agreement!

I guess it still comes down to the GM controlling time as a resource. Otherwise, the point is that a hacker with no karma can (easily) beat the technomancer and the AI, just by taking enough time (and by that we mean a few months, perhaps). While I don't love the way 'awakened' characters tend to trounce, they do deserve something for their investment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Absolutely!

As much shit as WAR gets - and it gets a lot of fecal matter hurled in its direction everyone even mentions its name - it did something rather necessary.

It expanded the high-end matrix opposition. It actually put numbers and stats to high-end things a GM can throw at their players, possibly enough to make things a bit challenging. Sadly, the book wasn't very well recieved, otherwise I think we'd see more GM's breaking this stuff out. ("i haven't even touched war cuz I heard it was bad" is a common thing I hear.)

Most of the complaints about war's high-rating matrix stuff, basically, sound to me like 'durr hurr stuff isn't supposed to go above 6, war broke my perfect abusable system waah..' well. Suck it up. Unwired already told you stuff above rating 6 exists. There's a sidebar, and it even suggests basing runs about getting or stealing it.

I'd try to say it more nicely but yeah, the R6 cap system is already broken. I don't think it helps to pretend it isn't, just adjust the setting a bit for corps having more high-end programs and go.

[longbowrocks]

Yes, I'd certainly argue that a hacker doesn't need all of those. What skills do you think those other archetypes need, exactly? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If I'm going to play an archetype, I think I should at least get the skill group that's named after them. Except if I'm playing a sammie. In that case I take one or two weapon skills, and some other supporting skills. I never take dodge. If something ever gets within melee range of me, it's strong enough that it probably could have killed me before I saw it. If I ever find myself in a position where I'm willing to sacrifice an IP for full dodge, I'm going to die anyway.

I'm not sure what you mean. It's not really any *harder* to get the high-rating programs (I'd love an exponential or otherwise increasing Threshold/interval, for example). But my point was that we're given sample nodes; if you can beat those, you're beating entire IT departments of major nation-corporations. By yourself, armed with a cheap nexus and a few sleepless nights.

I guess. By the way. have you seen a mage? He doesn't even need the commlink. Just run stark naked into a major corp and tell your force 12 spirits to kill everyone.
Programmers are the closest thing to mages IRL. I don't see why they wouldn't have similar style in Shadowrun.

(Another aside. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I do think everyone in the Sixth World needs a little 'hacker', just as everyone must be able to shoot a gun and dodge. The specialists certainly shine, and they're the ones breaking nodes. But leaving every little data search or security feature to 'the hacker' is as lame as leaving *every* conversation to the face. It makes sense, but only to a point.)

Wait. If you think everyone needs to shoot, dodge, hack, and face, there is no way in a 100 port hub that you have never seen anyone glitch before. Their dominant skill would be under 20. Perhaps around 15.

Also, wow that's a nice long post PoliteMan.

[longbowrocks]

Finally, does anyone have any idea why drones in WAR are equipped with tacsofts that they can never use?

[Fatum]

>War!
The question contains the answer.

[Aaron]

Finally, does anyone have any idea why drones in WAR are equipped with tacsofts that they can never use?

You lost me on that one. Unwired states that drones can be members of a tactical network. Don't remember the page number off hand, but it says something along the lines of members of the network can be people or drones.

[Fatum]

Actually, yes, Aaron, it's right in the description of tacnets in Unwired, I believe.
Now, whether they have a sufficient number of sensor channels is another question altogether...

[Fortinbras]

So, basically you guys are saying that you can't code anything above the highest rating for sale in the book. However, I have never seen a rule about that before. You would think that if they intended the game to work that way, they would:
A. Not make it possible to get hardware ratings that exceed program max ratings.
B. Add a limit on coding ratings in the table on SR4A 228, similarly to how they limit purchasable items.
C. Mention the limit somewhere. Anywhere even.

Sorry guys. I'm not buying.

I have never seen a rule that says I can't make a gun that gives me 12P, AP -9 with 23 points of recoil. Neither have I seen a rule that says I can. It is implicit in Matrix rules, and indeed in proving negatives, that if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't do it.
To answer your questions about Autosofts,

A: The hardware rating of drones is used in things other than Autosofts, such as Programs and Combat. The Response can exceed the Autosoft Rating for those things, as those are not capped.
B: The limit is implicit. Ecverything is for sale in the 6th World. If it existed, it would be purchasable. It doesn't, so it can't. To reiterate caps already expressed seems excessive.
C: The limit for Autosofts and Skillsofts are mentioned in the purchase table. It is also mentioned in the fact that no drone anywhere has an Autosoft greater than 4, even in WAR! which has a drone with a Pilot of 5, yet all it's Autosofts are at 4.

As for coding non-Autosofts greater than 10, I think that's in UV node territory, at which point the programmer should be blurring the lines between reality and VR; making addiction tests and trying to run programs in real life because it seems lees real than the node in which they are programming.

[Yerameyahu]

It is just not that difficult to get 12-15 dice

… yeah, that's the 'problem'. I'm not saying it's hard, but that it's *easy*.

Yes, the hacker gets more dice in certain areas, so will the other players and so should the opposition.

This is what I meant when I said that all the samples in Unwired must be wrong, then.

Linux is crap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) And a truly massive, ancient project. These aren't examples of trillion-dollar nation-corps losing to one criminal mercenary.
--

Unwired already told you stuff above rating 6 exists. There's a sidebar, and it even suggests basing runs about getting or stealing it.

… But *not* coding it! It says strongly that it's insane and you can only get it in crazy situations.

--
longbowrocks, I really fundamentally disagree that hackers are like mages, and maybe that's why we're having so much trouble here. Mages are super-special, hackers are *normal*—only moreso. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Hackers are just like sams, in that they're doing totally normal things that anyone can do, but much much better. (And glitches don't exist at the 15-20 DP range. Hell, why would anyone even have skills above that?)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, yes, Aaron, it's right in the description of tacnets in Unwired, I believe.
Now, whether they have a sufficient number of sensor channels is another question altogether...

One Camera At Rating 6 can power an entire Tacnet rated at 2 (with the right mods on the camera) or 3 (based upon the Sensor Rating of the Camera)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Hida Tsuzua]

Actually, yes, Aaron, it's right in the description of tacnets in Unwired, I believe.
Now, whether they have a sufficient number of sensor channels is another question altogether...

The only drone I can find that has a TacNet built in is the GCR-65S with its tacnet 1 software. Since it has a sensor rating of 2 and thus two channels, that's high enough to pass. I will admit getting drones on a higher rating tacnet is tough. Why couldn't they make it drone sensor = rating of tacnet it could join is beyond me. If drones can qualify like metahumans, it isn't as bad, but still annoying since you'll have to mod the heck out of their ill-defined sensor suites.

Edit-grammer and style

[sabs]

What they should have done was make it exponentially harder to code programs the higher the rating.

A rating 7 program should be /hard/ but potentially doable by a dedicated hacker.
A rating 8 program should be /hard/ but potentially doable by a group of dedicated hackers
A rating 9 program should be nearly impossible, except by a group of specialized programmers working with state of the art technology, and requiring at least 1 person with a 7 programming skill.

Anything above that, should be wacky AI shit.

The rules for rushing jobs isn't harsh enough on glitches.

Technomancers should not be able to thread and improve existing complex forms, without spending karma.
Threading should allow you to do 1 of 3 things
1) Create a temporary Complex Form from 0
2) Improve an already existing complex form, for the purpose of increasing it's permanent rating. (by spending Karma)
3) Create a Rank 1 permanent Complex Form (by spending karma)

Nexus need to be completely re-written.
Persona Limits MAKE NO SENSE, and it needs to change from, "number of people who originate from here to" "Number of Icons that can be in the system at any one time."

You always count as being "in" the node you originate from. That's fine. But every Node you have a subscription to, should count you in it's "persona" limit.

[sabs]

The only drone I can find that has a TacNet built in is the GCR-65S with its tacnet 1 software. Since it has a sensor rating of 2 and thus two channels, that's high enough to pass. I will admit getting drones on a higher rating tacnet is annoying as all heck. Why couldn't they make it drone sensor = rating of tacnet it could join is beyond me. If drones can qualify like metahumans, it isn't as bad, but still annoying since you'll have to mod the heck out their ill-defined sensor suites.

The key with drones is to throw out the 'sensor rating' and instead use individual sensors independently.

So a Fly Spy has
Camera R6 = 1 sensor
Thermographic Modification = 1 sensor
low-light vision modification = 1 sensor
Ultra Sound mod = 1 sensor
Microphone R 6 = 1 sensor
Augio Enhancement = 1 sensor
Spatial Recognizer = 1 sensor
Olifactory Sensor R6 = 1 sensor

That gives it 8 channels, or enough for a TacSoft Rating 4.

That's plenty

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Technomancers should not be able to thread and improve existing complex forms, without spending karma.
Threading should allow you to do 1 of 3 things
1) Create a temporary Complex Form from 0
2) Improve an already existing complex form, for the purpose of increasing it's permanent rating. (by spending Karma)
3) Create a Rank 1 permanent Complex Form (by spending karma)

Technomancer issues would be fixed if you use the CF as the limit on hits that you can achieve. Under the Optional Rule of Skill + Attribute (Hits capped by Program Limit), you do not have any of the above issues at all, since your CF does not add to your DP...

Just a plug for the optional rule... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[sabs]

You still have issues with Stealth rating of 12 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but.. that just means that Technomancers are SUPER GOOD at hiding in plain sight in a node.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You still have issues with Stealth rating of 12 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) but.. that just means that Technomancers are SUPER GOOD at hiding in plain sight in a node.

Only on initial Penetration, where the CF/Program sets the threshold to be noticed... Afterwards, the test is opposed, and you are rolling your Logic + Skill with caps limited by CF/Program. It is an opposed test. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Only on initial Penetration, where the CF/Program sets the threshold to be noticed... Afterwards, the test is opposed, and you are rolling your Logic + Skill with caps limited by CF/Program. It is an opposed test. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And what's stopping a technomancer from threading it to 11? Or 12?

[sabs]

Because Logic(6)+skill(6)=DP 12. Sure, if he yahtzees he can count all 12 dice, but how often is THAT gonna happen.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And what's stopping a technomancer from threading it to 11? Or 12?

Why would he need to? Since the CF is the CAP for hits, there is less incentive to thread to insane levels. A System with programs rated at 6 is not going to detect that rating 7 Stealth on Insertion, and will be contested thereafter. Why would it need a Rating 11 oer 12? I have noticed that the optional Rule GREATLY reduces the need for insane levels of Programming/Threading. And actually makes sense of the lower rated programs that are out there. Also, for tyhose Military/Secret Research Facilities that DO have programs rated higher, they have the personnel available that will allow their full use.

My personal Experience anyways... Anecdotal though it is Yerameyahu (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) TJ

I agree, sabs: higher ratings need to get harder faster.

[Ascalaphus]

I've never really pondered the influence of the Skill+Attr (Max Prog/CF) rule on technomancers.

Do you think it makes hacker advancement (karma/cashwise) and technomancer advancement more similar? I.e. technomancers a bit less karma-draining, and hackers a tad more?

[James McMurray]

What about using rating squared as the base threshold? It'd make lower rating software really easy, but you can get those as freeware anyway. Once you start trying to do milspec stuff you're looking at 49+ difficulties. Then tack on a little more for hacking software, autosofts, and the other types that are supposed to be harder.