Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[deek]

That already exists in some way. It's called Limitation. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

To some extent, but it appears that coding a Limitation into a program, by RAW, takes more time. I certainly think this program option can be keyed on, but what we'd have to do is come up with a houserule for the particular option that reduces the time it takes to code a program using this particular limitation (again, the limitation is that the hacker can only use it on the commlink he coded it on, so its 100% non-transferrable).

Again, the idea is to put solid rules this limitation that would allow a hacker to code his own programs in a reasonable time, but avoid the prospect of him doing that for his whole team or making a profit off selling the stuff for quick money. This fits the flavor it seems everyone is going for: a hacker should code his own shit and be pretty good while not taking months to code and patch making it a viable option for characters.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That rule was written outside of the existence of the Arsenal Sensor upgrade rules.

Don't get me wrong, the sensor rules are stupid. But by dealing with individual sensors and sensor capacities in a drone, you are /much/ better off balance while, and flexibility wise. Sure you run into problems that microdrones can have a camera, or a microphone, and if they have a microphone, you're nto quite sure HOW they move (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) but.. that's a different story.

A Camera or Microphone can fit into a Button. Or an RFID, which is TINY... Why is it a problem for a Microdrone?

[sabs]

Microdrones have a 1 capacity sensor package, so they can only have 1 sensor.
As per SR4A.

[Yerameyahu]

And the micro camera is limited to Rating 1.

Deek, some form of 'automatic' Limitation seems fair, like geas/limited versions of spells and things. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Microdrones have a 1 capacity sensor package, so they can only have 1 sensor.
As per SR4A.

And a Camera is exactly 1 Sensor... and has Visual (Video and Trideo) AND Sound capabilities. As per SR4A.
Micro is Rating 1 Camera with 2 channels... With, again, Visual and Sound, so your Micro Drone can support a Rating 1 Tacnet by default.

What's the Problem...

[sabs]

Where do you get the camera has sound capabilities? It cannot take any audio enhancements.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Where do you get the camera has sound capabilities? It cannot take any audio enhancements.

Does not need to... Here, let me quote the book...

Camera: The most common sensor, cameras can capture still
photos, video, or trideo (including sound). Cameras may also be upgraded
with vision enhancements (p. 333). Micro versions are available
at Rating 1 (Capacity 1) only.

Plain as day... Cameras have sound capture capabilities by default.

[sabs]

Micro cameras are limited to rating 1.

A Camera can have as many mods as it has ratings.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Micro cameras are limited to rating 1.

A Camera can have as many mods as it has ratings.

And again... There is no need to mod the camera to have visual and audio channels. They are default.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Where do you get the camera has sound capabilities? It cannot take any audio enhancements.

Under the description of camera:

Camera: The most common sensor, cameras can capture still photos, video, or trideo (including sound). Cameras may also be upgraded with vision enhancements (p. 333). Micro versions are available at Rating 1 (Capacity 1) only.

Edit- Ninja'd so more commentary. You can't really mod much for the camera at 1 though. But it does provide the sound and audio channels so a microdrone can join a rating 1 tacnet. With improved sensor array, I'm sure you can leverage it to 4 sensor channels.

[longbowrocks]

No, actually you don't... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) No degrees needed at all... And no rules lawyering either. It is quite simple. Either use the Sensor Rating and upgrade it (A single Camera with a Rating of 6 upgrades the Entire Suite of 1 Sensor to a rating of 6, which will handle a R3 Tacnet) OR you use Individual channels, like metahumans do, and spend the money to upgrade each and every sensor with enough "channels" to handle a R4 Tacnet.

Long weekend ahead, so I can finally get onto this:
Option one will not allow a drone to support an R4 Tacnet, so that's probably not right.
It's pretty clear that drones don't use the same rules as metahumans for contributing sensor channels, so option two would be a house rule.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Long weekend ahead, so I can finally get onto this:
Option one will not allow a drone to support an R4 Tacnet, so that's probably not right.
It's pretty clear that drones don't use the same rules as metahumans for contributing sensor channels, so option two would be a house rule.

Actually, Option 2 is in the Books. It is suggested that you use Individual Ratings instead of Sensor Rating. If you can accumulate enough "Channels" to cover 8 Channels, you have access to the R4 tacnet Support.
And why do you NEED an R4 tacnet provided through Drones? Just more power creep...

Honestly, I am happy with just R3 from Drones, personally. Our group has yet to surpass the R3 Tacnet. No need really.

[longbowrocks]

Actually, Option 2 is in the Books. It is suggested that you use Individual Ratings instead of Sensor Rating. If you can accumulate enough "Channels" to cover 8 Channels, you have access to the R4 tacnet Support.

Are you talking about page 105 of Arsenal? I don't think the gamemaster would ever consider one sensor to be a hodgepodge of multisensory information detailed enough to support an R4 tacnet.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Are you talking about page 105 of Arsenal? I don't think the gamemaster would ever consider one sensor to be a hodgepodge of multisensory information detailed enough to support an R4 tacnet.

Does not matter... By the Rules (Like you tend to go), a Rating 6 Camera, by itself, will support a R3 Tacnet. Since the Rating 6 Camera (by itself, as a standalone system) boosts the Sensor Rating to 6. This is why I perfer the method of using "Channels" rather than Sensor Rating, to adjudicate the viability of Tacnet. It makes a LOT more sense.

Now, That Same Camera may only have 3 modes that can contribute to a Tacnet (Basic Visual, Thermographic and Lowlight Modes), the Radar on the vehicle could count as another one (for 4), the Audio Signal processing of the Select Sound Filters attached to the Camera's Audio Components can provide another (for 5), and the Laser Rangefinder contributes the 6th. To me, that is more costly, and makes more sense, than a Single, Rated 6 Camera boosting the Sensor rating to 6.

Either method works, but one makes a LOT more sense in the end.

[Jhaiisiin]

Going back a bit, our group have at times played with the Attribute + Skill (Max hits = program rating) option. I constantly ran up against the rating max hits on things. When hacking on the fly, hacking a System 4/Firewall 4 setup took 3 or more extended tests to get into for an Admin account. That same system could consistently hit my Stealth 5 or 6 in one or 2 checks maximum, and so there would *always* be an alarm when I got in, assuming it didn't just drop my connection outright.

So yes, it does limit the Technos and hackers in the same way, but that max hits = rating limit is crippling in a way, given that the detection of your intrusion doesn't follow the same rule, to my knowledge.

[Irion]

I personally dislike tecnet very much. Because there is no way to explain how it achieves the effect it talks about. Smartlink is questionable.
But Tacnet is quite insane.
You can easy get two or three dices. But for what?
For some distracting information?

I see the possible advantages but: The bonus is just too big.
If you compare two guys:
One with tacnet 4, Smartlink, Firearms 1 and agility 1 you end up with 8 dices.
Now you get yourself a marin:
Agility 4 and Firearms 4. He also gets 4 dices.
So on the one side you have a guy whos hands won't stop shaking on the other hand a marine.
And because that guy gets a cross air drawn before his face (and some other information) he shoots nearly as good as the marine.
Well, thats just ridiculous.
I get it, that a startup with smartlink is able to shoot like an more experienced guy.
But tecnet just...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Going back a bit, our group have at times played with the Attribute + Skill (Max hits = program rating) option. I constantly ran up against the rating max hits on things. When hacking on the fly, hacking a System 4/Firewall 4 setup took 3 or more extended tests to get into for an Admin account. That same system could consistently hit my Stealth 5 or 6 in one or 2 checks maximum, and so there would *always* be an alarm when I got in, assuming it didn't just drop my connection outright.

So yes, it does limit the Technos and hackers in the same way, but that max hits = rating limit is crippling in a way, given that the detection of your intrusion doesn't follow the same rule, to my knowledge.

We have been using it for a year or so now, and I love it... Besides, You want to extend beyond your Hit Cap, Use an Edge Point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jhaiisiin]

Or only ever take time to probe the target so it only gets one single roll to detect you. But most of the time, you won't always have hours to hack in to a location. Similarly, I'm not going to blow an Edge point for *every* time I need to hack into something. I'd be out of edge halfway through a single session. Contrary to a previous post, Edge does *not* refresh every session. It refreshes at GM whim. That can be every session, or only between adventures. If one run takes 4 sessions to complete, I'd better not be blowing Edge every chance I need to hack if the GM doesn't refresh until the end of an adventure (as happens in our games).

[Udoshi]

I personally dislike tecnet very much. Because there is no way to explain how it achieves the effect it talks about. Smartlink is questionable.
But Tacnet is quite insane.
You can easy get two or three dices. But for what?
For some distracting information?

Distracting information? heck no.

Ever played a video game with a minimap? I mean, a good one, that shows the location of all enemies you can see?
Right, not too bad. (Most shooters, like, oh, alien vs predator, UT, or even halo)
Or one that shows a level map. (No, not like diablo. )
Or a really good game that lets you see all the enemies your entire team can detect (section 8, dystopia, planetside).
Back in the day, there were a handful of excellent flight sim games that had a nifty thing called a Leading Indicator.(Privateer, freespace). you target an enemy, and it tells you how far ahead you need to lead with your ships guns to score a hit.

A Tacnet does all of this by tying all this convenient smartlink and sensor data into one easily-accessable, non distracting package. It turns a soldier into a wallhacker who always gets the drop on someone coming around the corner, knows exactly where his friends are, their status, their ammo count, and even which targets they are aiming at. If you're fighting a recognizable force, it even tells you the gear they have, and tactics you can expect to face.

And thats before you plug other crazy stuff like shot-spooter sensorsofts, into it.

No, tacnets aren't easily lumped in as random information. Its basically a really, really excellent HUD system.

[SpellBinder]

I personally dislike tecnet very much. Because there is no way to explain how it achieves the effect it talks about. Smartlink is questionable.
But Tacnet is quite insane.
You can easy get two or three dices. But for what?
For some distracting information?

Re Smartlink: Think Robocop with his pistol, being able to see where it's aimed (like the crosshairs in your FPS game; most players will have worse aim without that being there). Or, if you want, being able to see down the barrel of your gun from the bullet's perspective. Couple in extra information like range, where to really aim to hit the spot you want, wind direction and speed, and such, and there's your bonus.

Re Tacnet: Along with the sensor channels to collect the information, figure the tacnet software is using that info to coordinate where all its members are, potential targets are, movement of all involved, and triangulation mixed in with GPS (via your commlink running the tacnet) to help tell you where targets and such are. I've figured some kind of triangulation is involved since you've gotta have at least three members in a tacnet to get any bonuses. As for distracting, I'm with Udoshi.

In all honesty I never figured that the full details needed to really be flushed out. After all, we're talking about fictional technology that's sixty-some years more advanced than what we've got now. Better to not think too much on it and just enjoy the game.

[longbowrocks]

I get it, that a startup with smartlink is able to shoot like an more experienced guy.
But tecnet just...

Yeah, in general, bonuses equal-weigh skill + attribute, and outweigh low skill + low attribute.

*Ah, in the game I mean, just so we don't start another IRL argument.

[longbowrocks]

Does not matter... By the Rules (Like you tend to go), a Rating 6 Camera, by itself, will support a R3 Tacnet. Since the Rating 6 Camera (by itself, as a standalone system) boosts the Sensor Rating to 6. This is why I perfer the method of using "Channels" rather than Sensor Rating, to adjudicate the viability of Tacnet. It makes a LOT more sense.

Now, That Same Camera may only have 3 modes that can contribute to a Tacnet (Basic Visual, Thermographic and Lowlight Modes), the Radar on the vehicle could count as another one (for 4), the Audio Signal processing of the Select Sound Filters attached to the Camera's Audio Components can provide another (for 5), and the Laser Rangefinder contributes the 6th. To me, that is more costly, and makes more sense, than a Single, Rated 6 Camera boosting the Sensor rating to 6.

Either method works, but one makes a LOT more sense in the end.

I like method 2 if you want to be fair, but I still say the drone must have some sensors that make its sensor rating 3-4. With those in the mix, no number of sensors will raise your average to 6.

[Irion]

Distracting information? heck no.

Ever played a video game with a minimap? I mean, a good one, that shows the location of all enemies you can see?
Right, not too bad. (Most shooters, like, oh, alien vs predator, UT, or even halo)
Or one that shows a level map. (No, not like diablo. )
Or a really good game that lets you see all the enemies your entire team can detect (section 8, dystopia, planetside).
Back in the day, there were a handful of excellent flight sim games that had a nifty thing called a Leading Indicator.(Privateer, freespace). you target an enemy, and it tells you how far ahead you need to lead with your ships guns to score a hit.

A Tacnet does all of this by tying all this convenient smartlink and sensor data into one easily-accessable, non distracting package. It turns a soldier into a wallhacker who always gets the drop on someone coming around the corner, knows exactly where his friends are, their status, their ammo count, and even which targets they are aiming at. If you're fighting a recognizable force, it even tells you the gear they have, and tactics you can expect to face.

And thats before you plug other crazy stuff like shot-spooter sensorsofts, into it.

No, tacnets aren't easily lumped in as random information. Its basically a really, really excellent HUD system.

Yes, yes.
But take a first person shooter of your choice. deactivate the minimap and even the crossair(if there are regular possibilitys to aim) from one team and get the other team drunk like hell (to reduce their skill and attribute)
Or, hell. Just take one group of regular guys and an other group of pros. The pros are walking over the regular guys. Crossair/minimap or not. They do not care.
Well, maybe in Space shooters it is going to be a bit different. But I would not like to bet on that.
Because well, it does not help you much. The newbes would start looking at the minimap, while the pros would just use the sound to pinpoint an enemy. So the distraction from the minimap would may even be a disadvantage.
And yes while I was young we had Lan partys and I could see bad players using wallhack and stuff and the good ones still butchering them.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or only ever take time to probe the target so it only gets one single roll to detect you. But most of the time, you won't always have hours to hack in to a location. Similarly, I'm not going to blow an Edge point for *every* time I need to hack into something. I'd be out of edge halfway through a single session. Contrary to a previous post, Edge does *not* refresh every session. It refreshes at GM whim. That can be every session, or only between adventures. If one run takes 4 sessions to complete, I'd better not be blowing Edge every chance I need to hack if the GM doesn't refresh until the end of an adventure (as happens in our games).

And I agree with you. When you can slow hack the system, you prep for the intrusion with the creation of Backdoors or legitimate accounts, or you use a Trojan to set up the system for the Actual run. My Character has done this many times. Sometimes, though, you just cannot go that route. That is why the Programming world created the "MUTE" option. Used correctly, you will be in the system before the Alarm goes off, and then you can attempt to shut it down before it totally hoses you (as most systems get 3 passes, and many Hackers get 3-5 passes, you will have awesome time padding before any alarm goes off). For simple systems, you are likely to get in on an OTF Hack before any thresholds have been met, dependant upon what access you are going for. For those systems where you have a high Threshold to penetrate, well, you need a high rated Stealth as well. Push their threshold as high as you can and the dice rolls eventually become even.

As a note. The opposition's agents will be of minimal use against a very skilled hacker (in the optinal Rule that we use, and even in the normal rules, most of the times). This is because of a few things. The primary one being that Agents get no Edge. Another is the hit cap on dice rolls when using the optional rule (to get the full use of a Rating 6 Program, you need, on average, 18 Dice. Agents cannot compete in that realm). You really only need to worry about the Spiders in the system. Leave your own worms and agents to deal with the less challenging opponents.

For the Record, My Cyberlogician rarely spends Edge on a Hack. It is rarely worth it. He always has better (read more critical) areas in which to spend Edge. Of course, it doesn't help much that he also has Bad Luck, so he rarely spends Edge anyways, unless it really, really, really matters in the moment. Otherwise he takes his lumps and moves on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I like method 2 if you want to be fair, but I still say the drone must have some sensors that make its sensor rating 3-4. With those in the mix, no number of sensors will raise your average to 6.

Which is why we like Method 2 ourselves. Most Drones have a Sensor rating of 1-4, and is easliy upgradeable to a 5 with minimal effort. There is a list of the common sensors on a Vehicle in Arsenal (Vehicles have 12 Points worth of sensors). A Drone will likely have fewer of these, and there are several you can easily eliminate, Vehicle Radar being the easiest with its 5 slot requirement.

Making the 'Runner purchase the upgrades to each sensor individually works well, because it causes them to spend money on each sensor. Which I am all for, as a GM and a Player. Besides, depending upon the individual sensors, you can get the package to a Sensor 6. Just remove any of the rated stuff that does not go that high and replace with one that will.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)