Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[Jhaiisiin]

We have been using the program rating cap optional rule for years at our table as well and we like it. Everyone once in a while, someone wants to go past the cap and they use edge to ignore it. It doesn't happen all that often, though. I mean, when the best hackers (at our table) are rolling 14-16 dice, a Rating 6 program rarely caps hits. And even when it does, we are talking about 6 hits, which is more than enough to do almost anything.

6 hits isn't enough to hack OTF through that Firewall 4/System 4 system you need admin access to in one go... Hell, you need 3 tries to do it. So you'd best have that mute option on that TJ mentioned.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

6 hits isn't enough to hack OTF through that Firewall 4/System 4 system you need admin access to in one go... Hell, you need 3 tries to do it. So you'd best have that mute option on that TJ mentioned.

True, but why do you NEED to OTF Hack thorugh the firewall in a single Action? And if it is very important, why are you not spending the Edge to OTF Hack it in that one action in the first place (Not that it will be very likely anyways)? And why do you NEED Administratvive Rights? Many things can be done with User and Security Access levels (In fact, most things can be done with one of the lower access levels).

"Mute Option" for the Win... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I notice you spend Edge on every roll, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) At least, you keep advocating it here, hehe.

[Epicedion]

I'm not a huge fan of Edge, myself -- at least not how it works in this game. It seems like a mediocre patch for a system that doesn't know how to establish a finely tuned difficulty curve.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I notice you spend Edge on every roll, Tymeaus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) At least, you keep advocating it here, hehe.

Actually, I do not. I rarely ever hit my Cap Limit for Hacking... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

However, Spent Edge removes the Cap Limit, which seems to be everyone's problem with that Optional Rule. Personally, I LIKE that cap limit, because it makes a great deal of sense. You can only be as good as your programs allow. If you are consistently better than your programs, well, it is time to upgrade your programs.

I'm not a huge fan of Edge, myself -- at least not how it works in this game. It seems like a mediocre patch for a system that doesn't know how to establish a finely tuned difficulty curve.

I do not mind Edge, since it is a factor of Luck. I think the Difficulty curve is acceptable in Shadowrun, which is why I rarely have a character with an Edge Attribute greater than 2 (of the 50 or so characters I created, 2 or 3 have Edge 4+, and 2-3 have a 3). If you are relying upon your Edge Attribute to Succeed, then you designed your character poorly, at least in my opinion. Some of Longbowrock's characters come to mind immediately. Yes, Some people ARE lucky, but you should not be relying upon it to succeed at your profession.

[Yerameyahu]

Nuh uh, you *just* said this: "why are you not spending the Edge to OTF Hack it in that one action in the first place". Nothing there about hit caps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Edge isn't luck, and people don't treat it as luck. It's some kind of magical *resource* that people plan for and depend on.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nuh uh, you *just* said this: "why are you not spending the Edge to OTF Hack it in that one action in the first place". Nothing there about hit caps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No what I said was... If it is very important, why are you not spending the Edge to OTF Hack it in that one action in the first place.

I do not think it is any where NEAR important enough to spend Edge to move beyond the Hit Cap when OTF Hacking (while others who do not use this system complain that the Hit Caps are the most problematic of issues). I think it is stupid, in fact, to do so. If you are consistently running into your Hit Cap (While obviously using the Optional Rule), then you are not using the right tools. Upgrade your programs.

See, not the same as what you are hinting at in the least Yerameyahu... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Edge is the exact opposite of luck. It's a super-attribute that gets you exponentially more dice more often the more of it you have. It also has the side effect of overcharging your roll by exploding the 6s.

What's worse is that it's not even an obscure feature or expensive combination of stats and gear. It's a basic attribute.

If you don't see it as that useful, you're going to need to revisit your math. If you see it as too useful, your downplaying of it is a patch to a major flaw in the most basic parts of the core system, and you should at least acknowledge the problem is real.

[longbowrocks]

Some of Longbowrock's characters come to mind immediately. Yes, Some people ARE lucky, but you should not be relying upon it to succeed at your profession.

Actually, I use the edge to take over other people's roles in times of crisis, and do things that normally seem impossible (like become a charisma 1 president, or transform a tank into giblets with a holdout). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Edge is the exact opposite of luck. It's a super-attribute that gets you exponentially more dice more often the more of it you have. It also has the side effect of overcharging your roll by exploding the 6s.

What's worse is that it's not even an obscure feature or expensive combination of stats and gear. It's a basic attribute.

If you don't see it as that useful, you're going to need to revisit your math. If you see it as too useful, your downplaying of it is a patch to a major flaw in the most basic parts of the core system, and you should at least acknowledge the problem is real.

I rarely, if ever, use Edge, Epicedion. Primarily because I tend to design characters that can succeed without the Crutch of Edge. And you have to admit, it is a Crutch. I do not see it as all that useful. You can only be so dead, after all. If you are succeeding without it, then it is an overcosted attribute that has little relevance. If you are NOT succeeding, then you should probably have designed a more functional character (by possibly using those BP's spent on Edge Points). Edge is Nice, no doubt, but it is expensive. Is it too useful? Not in my opinion. Can its use get Crazy? Sure... It does have its uses (though mostly as a Crutch, more often than not). Of course, I rarely see a Mr. Lucky at our table (We have had 1). Typically, the Edge Stats for characters at our table is a 3 or 4 (with my usually a 1 or 2). Useful for survival in a pinch, but nothing more than that, at least for me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, I use the edge to take over other people's roles in times of crisis, and do things that normally seem impossible (like become a charisma 1 president, or transform a tank into giblets with a holdout). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But you see, You should not be taking over their roles. Maybe they should have designed a more functional character in the first place. Like maybe a Hacker/Rigger/Face that can actually fulfill those roles, rather than rely upon Edge to carry them through. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) No Offense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Use of Edge for the "Impossible" is what it is supposed to be used for. Note that it will not carry you forever, though. You may get away with the Impossible every so often, and I am okay with that. Using it constantly, just to plug holes in charadcter design, is ludicrous.

[longbowrocks]

If you are NOT succeeding, then you should probably have designed a more functional character (by possibly using those BP's spent on Edge Points).

I succeed well enough without it, but c'mon: a stat that basically lets me circumvent probability? It doesn't matter what the threshold is if I'm using an edge score of 7 on a dominant skill. I can basically buy 6 successes, or watch my roll and get 9+. I alway feel bad for those edge 1 or 2 characters that run into an absolutely dire situation (frag grenade in the middle of a party that just finished a fight) and can't do anything to buff their rolls accordingly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Epicedion]

You're asserting that it's either a minor, rarely used resource, or a bad patch for poor character design.

Instead of falling into the false dichotomy, you should also see it potentially a very powerful resource that can be rationed out on a run to supplement the things the character is already good at. Once you get up to 5 or so Edge, you're able to get a huge boost to pretty much any critical roll in a run. At the far out end of 8 Edge, it's completely absurd.

Karma Pool really was luck. Edge is insurance.

[Irion]

Edge is important, Edge lets you live if a granade gets thrown in your face, while beeing in a building. For that you need many dices. (First dodge, afterwards soak)

At the far out end of 8 Edge, it's completely absurd.

QFT.

[longbowrocks]

I think Tymeaus was saying that he uses edge only for hand of god, and only when necessary (though that goes without saying), so the damage resistance rolls are kind of a moot point. Then again, resisting the damage will keep you in combat when your party is down.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're asserting that it's either a minor, rarely used resource, or a bad patch for poor character design.

Instead of falling into the false dichotomy, you should also see it potentially a very powerful resource that can be rationed out on a run to supplement the things the character is already good at. Once you get up to 5 or so Edge, you're able to get a huge boost to pretty much any critical roll in a run. At the far out end of 8 Edge, it's completely absurd.

Karma Pool really was luck. Edge is insurance.

Don't get me wrong, it IS a potentially powerful Resource. Often, though, It just functions as a crutch, in one form or another. When that resource is LOW, then you ONLY use it for the Important things that absolutely Must Not Fail. When it is HIGH, you use it for almost everything.

Many Character's with a High Edge Pool (6+) are using it solely to patch poor CHARACTER design. I am sure that You know the one's...

Karma Pool was ridiculous at the high ends. Edge works better, in my opinion, but still has issues when it is near its maximum. At least Edge HAS a Maximum. They both work, however.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think Tymeaus was saying that he uses edge only for hand of god, and only when necessary (though that goes without saying), so the damage resistance rolls are kind of a moot point. Then again, resisting the damage will keep you in combat when your party is down.

Well, I rarely (Think I have done it once in SR4) use the Hand of God. I will use the Edge to reroll a failure now and then, but if the character actually dies, I really just move on. I have so many character Ideas that a Dead Character is just that. I move on. Sometimes, though, you just need to be lucky. And I am not talking just an extra Success here or there, but Truly Lucky in that it is either Absolute Success or Absolute Failure for everyone involved, with no real in-between. In those instances, I will spend a point of Luck to make the roll.

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Epicedion]

Sure, Karma Pool could get crazy, but so does any game that hits a few hundred Karma.

What I meant was that the mechanism for distributing dice to tests worked better as luck than simply dumping a whole attribute worth of dice at a problem, over and over again. The limited nature of Karma Pool kept its usage down to only the most dire situations.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sure, Karma Pool could get crazy, but so does any game that hits a few hundred Karma.

What I meant was that the mechanism for distributing dice to tests worked better as luck than simply dumping a whole attribute worth of dice at a problem, over and over again. The limited nature of Karma Pool kept its usage down to only the most dire situations.

You and I must have had completely different experiences with Karma Pool. Spend a point, reroll the dice... Even at 100 Karma, you have More Dice to expend thant anyone does in Edge. Now, admittedly, I do not use Edge much, because I just do not put points into it (My Philosophy is better Skilled than Luck). I understand that Edge 6-8 is Super Lucky (Powerful, whatever) in that regard, as they often get to just use Edge for things that do not really matter all that much. They do so because they can. Of course, I saw Karma Pool being used that way too, in SR2/3. I honestly see Edge as being more limited, in that it has a Cap, where as Karma Pool Did not. I have had Characters iwth Karma Pool above 30, along with a Team Pool above 10. Way more broken than an Edge of 8, in my opinion.

[Epicedion]

Again, games that hit several hundred karma are crazy in their own ways. And whatever "Team Pool" is doesn't sound healthy.

[Irion]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Lets talk about the free spirit Magic 10 Edge 10...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

@Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Lets talk about the free spirit Magic 10 Edge 10...

Let me know when you get a Free Spirit PC up that High legitimately... ANything else is Plot Device...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Again, games that hit several hundred karma are crazy in their own ways. And whatever "Team Pool" is doesn't sound healthy.

Team Karma Pool was a karma Pool that the Entire TEAM Controlled. In addition to their Individual Karma Pools. You had to dontate a point (or more) from your own personal Karma Pool, but it could, and did, get crazy.

I find the game we are playing quite interesting, with the Long term characters having 350+ karma, and the Middle ranges having 200+. I am currently playing one of the Middle Range Characters (My Magic 3 Black Magican), and am heavily enjoying it. The character has an Edge of 3.

[Epicedion]

That's great, but I don't really see a point if you're making one.

As for Team Pool, whose nutty idea was that? I don't recall it from any books, and I don't see the appeal, except maybe to siphon off human karma pool to aid nonhumans who received karma pool at a much slower rate.

[Yerameyahu]

As always, Tymeaus, how much Edge you personally use doesn't really bear on this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The fact is that Edge is an anti-luck resource under conscious control—that's what 'crutch' means here. It requires major investment, but it also pays off a lot as you go up. So… what exactly are you arguing? You're the one who suggested Edge as the appropriate fix for Hit Cap problems.