Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[Yerameyahu]

PoliteMan, I wouldn't call that a 'basic' hacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's more or less the theoretical maximum.

[PoliteMan]

*just barely. Don't you need to buy the best hardware available from WAR, and then build your own modules to upgrade that by +2 to 12? That's all I can think of, and that's the absolute limit as far as I know.

Just build it. One of the reasons hackers should skimp on Hardware. Haven't really read WAR (too much bad press) but the only thing that ever stopped somebody from building a Response 12 system before was we didn't have a price for it before. Building it from scratch means it's half off and (arguably) it means you don't have to worry about availability.

PoliteMan, I wouldn't call that a 'basic' hacker. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's more or less the theoretical maximum.

Oh come on, we can get much higher than that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[TheOOB]

I think the rules are supposed to break down after rating 6. Remember that anything above rating 6 doesn't even have an availability, and is going to be expensive and rare. I don't think a player should eb able to program/make things above rating 6 without access to special facilities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SOTA=State of the Art (at least that's been my reading)


Careful with that, it can lead to some crazy programming stuff.
For example, coding a R12 hacking program is a (24, 1 Month) extended test.

Now a basic hacker is looking at a Logic of 7, Skill of 5 (ish), +5 from from various logic-skill upgrades, and an additional +5 from the Programming environment/assist program in Unwired, so 22 dice. That's 3-4 tests to complete at half-a-week per test. I think most hackers would gleefully drop a point or two of Edge to churn out a R12 program every 2 weeks.

Where do you get a BASIC Hacker with a Logic of 7, and a Skill of 5, and 10 points worth of boosts? That is so far above professional, even, that it is not funny. That is an OPTIMIZED Hacker, not basic.

A Basic Hacker likely only has a Logic of 4, a Skill of 3 (With maybe a specialty in Hacking Programs), I will give you the +5 for the Assisted Programming and Programming Environment, because it would make sense. He likely has NO logic skill upgrades, because he is a BASIC hacker, not Elite. So, 12-14 Dice. So Buy 3 hits per interval, it will take 8 intervals to accomplish the task. Anywhere from 4 Months to 1 Month, dependant upon desire to rush job and spend Edge. Why would a Wageslave spend Edge on such things, though? Oh, and that does not cover the additional programming required to allow that R12 program to actually function on any system. R12 programs in a vacuum are useless. so you either need a R12 System, or a LOT of Optimization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: And it seems that Yerameyahu has already covered that point...

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget that the -1 die per test rule isn't optional any more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I don't agree, but just to screw the hacker…

Building things yourself has the same availability (for the parts), AFAIK.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't forget that the -1 die per test rule isn't optional any more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I don't agree, but just to screw the hacker…

Building things yourself has the same availability (for the parts), AFAIK.

Actually, it is still optional, enforced at the GM's whim (When he determines that circumstances warrant the decrimenting of the pool)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And it does not really screw the hacker when he has as many Dice as PoliteMan implies.

[sabs]

Logic(9)+Skill(6)+Spec(2)+Encephalon(2)+PuSHeD(1)+CustomInterface(1)+neocortical
(3)+ProgramEnv(5)=29 DP

Not sure I can really boost it any higher than that. I suppose Genetic Optimization Logic gets you to 10.

[PoliteMan]

Where do you get a BASIC Hacker with a Logic of 7, and a Skill of 5, and 10 points worth of boosts? That is so far above professional, even, that it is not funny. That is an OPTIMIZED Hacker, not basic.

A Basic Hacker likely only has a Logic of 4, a Skill of 3 (With maybe a specialty in Hacking Programs), I will give you the +5 for the Assisted Programming and Programming Environment, because it would make sense. He likely has NO logic skill upgrades, because he is a BASIC hacker, not Elite. So, 12-14 Dice. So Buy 3 hits per interval, it will take 8 intervals to accomplish the task. Anywhere from 4 Months to 1 Month, dependant upon desire to rush job and spend Edge. Why would a Wageslave spend Edge on such things, though? Oh, and that does not cover the additional programming required to allow that R12 program to actually function on any system. R12 programs in a vacuum are useless. so you either need a R12 System, or a LOT of Optimization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: And it seems that Yerameyahu has already covered that point...

Logic 4 with 3 Cerebral Boosters, A skill of 3 with a Specialization in programming, Assisted Programming is easy. As for the logic-linked skill bonuses, I don't think it's a stretch to give the hacker PuSHeD and Neural Nanites? Encephelon 1 is kinda iffy, to be fair. None of that sounds wildly optimized. If the hacker doesn't dump Logic then Cerebral Boosters are cheap and make a ton of sense. Specialization or a skill of 4 doesn't seem too extreme either. Sure, we could trim it down a bit, but the fundamentals of combining the software boost with a decent-high Logic score, decent skills or low skills with Specialization, and a couple of Logic-linked skill boosts means the DP should be bouncing around 20. That's easily doable for this kind of thing. Combinging stat, skill, and program gives big DPs and the fact that hackers should have Logic-linked skill boosts just pushes that up.

And yeah, this all depends on Optimization.

Y,
Sure, that slows the hacker down a bit, won't stop him.

TheOOB,
Personally, once you get to this level, I really like the idea of having a few "super programs" with everything else stuck at R6, while the opposition gets bumped up to R7-R9. It brings back some of the hacker specialization; if you go "super" Stealth and Exploit you'll get in easy but the enemy has the advantage in cybercombat, Analyzing icons, viruses, etc.

[Yerameyahu]

I think we can still agree that's nowhere near 'basic'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's like saying a basic sam has MBW 3.

It's near the edge of reasonable optimization, with unreasonable optimization bringing things into the 28+ range. As for the reducing DP rule, it slows the 12 DP guy down a lot more—I was telling TJ, there.

My issue has always been that the program-your-own rules either require that kind of crazy optimization, or give away too much for free. It's hard to find a middle ground.

[sabs]

I think the problem is that people underestimate the danger of rushed programing. If you're making your SOTA super-awesome stealth program of win. Do you really want to risk having it sound an alarm randomly every once in a while? Or Having it crash/glitch on 2's.

People don't rush SOTA, and thinking it's all fine and dandy to do so is pretty much crazy.

[longbowrocks]

I was planning to rush the job and use edge to negate glitches, so there shouldn't be any problem.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For the Twink Answer... A Spirit backing you up with Guard handles that quite well...

[James McMurray]

Ah, no worries. Ours is not the sort of game where you make better than military grade stuff in your mom's basement. Rating 12 programs are not a concern. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, no worries. Ours is not the sort of game where you make better than military grade stuff in your mom's basement. Rating 12 programs are not a concern. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A programming Shop would suffice, a Facility would be even better, and both are available at Chargen for any character that wishes to purchase them. WHo said you have to be in your Mom's Basement? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[sabs]

Sometimes the GM has to step in and say, "no"
I would do a couple of things:

A rushed job SOTA might degrade twice as fast, in general.
A rushed job SOTA would glitch on a 2, instead of just a 1.

Sure that's not supported by the RAW, but the RAW is /lame/ in this regard.

[PoliteMan]

Ah, no worries. Ours is not the sort of game where you make better than military grade stuff in your mom's basement. Rating 12 programs are not a concern. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ok, good.

For the record though, an R6 nexus isn't your Mom's basement (unless your Mom is awesome).

[James McMurray]

A programming Shop would suffice, a Facility would be even better, and both are available at Chargen for any character that wishes to purchase them. WHo said you have to be in your Mom's Basement? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I was exaggerating. "Better than the best in the world" doesn't happen by one's self in our games, regardless of what you bought at chargen. If it were that easy, everyone would have R12 programs. If it works that way for you, that's cool. But it's not something I'll be fearing if a player wants to spend edge to make extended downtime tests faster.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was exaggerating. "Better than the best in the world" doesn't happen by one's self in our games, regardless of what you bought at chargen. If it were that easy, everyone would have R12 programs. If it works that way for you, that's cool. But it's not something I'll be fearing if a player wants to spend edge to make extended downtime tests faster.

Never said that it worked that way for me... I just pointed out the options that allowed it to happen. By RAW in fact (Well, Rating 12 is not RAW, Program Ratings are currently capped at 10, unless I missed something somewhere)... As always, you are free to ignore any rules you like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sabs]

Where do you get that program ratings are capped at 10? (from War?)

with SR4A and Unwired what we have is availability/cost for programs up to rating 6.
We have Response/System availability/cost to 6
We have Optimization to Rating 6.

So, with the rules as given, we can make Rating 6 Commlinks that can run Rating 12 programs. Nowhere is there a limit stated of anything other than 6.

(technically you could make a rating 24 program, but uh, you couldn't run it.)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Where do you get that program ratings are capped at 10? (from War?)

with SR4A and Unwired what we have is availability/cost for programs up to rating 6.
We have Response/System availability/cost to 6
We have Optimization to Rating 6.

So, with the rules as given, we can make Rating 6 Commlinks that can run Rating 12 programs. Nowhere is there a limit stated of anything other than 6.

(technically you could make a rating 24 program, but uh, you couldn't run it.)

War! expands Programs to 10. Unwired expands Hardware to 10+. With the Caveat that there may be higher rated things out there. Unwired Implies that Systems can go higher than 10 since an Ultraviolet System has requirements of 10+.

[PoliteMan]

I think the feasible theoretical max is a R21 Program.

That's based on a R12 System, with a R6 AI having made it it's home node, then R6 Optimization. The node itself would be R15, well into UV territory. I can't think of anyway to bump it beyond the except, theoretically, having multiple AIs making it their home node. I think those effects stack but it's, well, very unlikely that your shadowrunner knows and has gained the trust of that many AIs.

(Unless you're Horizon, in which case it is totally feasible to have multiple mid-high rating AIs living in a single node. That'd keep me up at night if I was in SR.)

[longbowrocks]

For the Twink Answer... A Spirit backing you up with Guard handles that quite well...

[all possible scorn]MAGIC[/all possible scorn]

[Raiki]

Ok, good.

For the record though, an R6 nexus isn't your Mom's basement (unless your Mom is awesome).

Well, you know, Netcat is pregnant, so at least one kid will eventually have a mom that awesome (and a dad too).


~R~

[SpellBinder]

Well, you know, Netcat is pregnant, so at least one kid will eventually have a mom that awesome (and a dad too).


~R~

Unless awesomeness skips a generation.

[Raiki]

Unless awesomeness skips a generation.

I never implied that the kid would be awesome. Gawd, it's the child of two super-nerds...it's probably going to have a face like quasimodo, a voice like gilbert gottfried, and enough genetically encoded knowledge of computers to ensure it's not going to get laid until it's old enough to pay for it.



~R~