Hacker Rules, How completely do you implement them? Options

[longbowrocks]

Quick question I've been thinking about all day. What's preventing me from equipping my drones with better pilot programs than they came with?
Also, where are the tables in unwired for the new autosofts (such as "expert offense")?

[Udoshi]

I think the rules are supposed to break down after rating 6. Remember that anything above rating 6 doesn't even have an availability, and is going to be expensive and rare. I don't think a player should eb able to program/make things above rating 6 without access to special facilities.

(emphasis mine)

This. This right here.

The matrix DOES break at high levels. Its just -bad-. Seriously, any automated IC/agent is only ever going to roll 12 dice for any task(and if it needs an autosoft for it, like, oh, say, Electronic Warfare, thats 10 dice).

Thats pretty easy to trivialize with a hacker, much less a technomancer.

Ditto for breaking into nodes. Whats that? Firewall and analyze 6 is the max? Very funny, pray to the dice gods you Yahtzee.

Oh my? The entry/standard level of rating 3 stuff(device ratings 3, games without unwired so no Optimization) means dice pools of 6? Skill of 1 and a program of 5? Hope you like glitching!


As much shit as WAR gets - and it gets a lot of fecal matter hurled in its direction everyone even mentions its name - it did something rather necessary.

It expanded the high-end matrix opposition. It actually put numbers and stats to high-end things a GM can throw at their players, possibly enough to make things a bit challenging. Sadly, the book wasn't very well recieved, otherwise I think we'd see more GM's breaking this stuff out. ("i haven't even touched war cuz I heard it was bad" is a common thing I hear.)


Most of the complaints about war's high-rating matrix stuff, basically, sound to me like 'durr hurr stuff isn't supposed to go above 6, war broke my perfect abusable system waah..' well. Suck it up. Unwired already told you stuff above rating 6 exists. There's a sidebar, and it even suggests basing runs about getting or stealing it.

[PoliteMan]

[all possible scorn]MAGIC[/all possible scorn]

Yes!

As for the drones, you can download better Pilot programs but the hardware won't support it. You can manually upgrade the hardware but that's expensive. I think the new autosofts somewhere around p. 104 but I don't have my book on me.

And related to our previous conversation, I don't see any reason you couldn't buy a bunch of cheap drones, like those little (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 500 toys, and stick a Technical Autosoft with Software on it and then have the system run the +5 programming program. The thing would be rolling 11 dice on programming tests, which isn't bad for patching programs and other grunt work but would get really broken if you started using them for teamwork tests for your programming, especially since I don't think there's a maximum number of people you can have on teamwork tests . Buying hits off 11 dice, you could get 40 bonus dice on your rollsfor (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 10,000. Since copying programs is easy, it's basically just the cost of the drone. Heck, you're gonna have a bunch of drones, just copy the necessary software through your drone network and leave it unloaded until downtime.

Edited for Udoshi:

(emphasis mine)

This. This right here.

The matrix DOES break at high levels. Its just -bad-. Seriously, any automated IC/agent is only ever going to roll 12 dice for any task(and if it needs an autosoft for it, like, oh, say, Electronic Warfare, thats 10 dice).

Thats pretty easy to trivialize with a hacker, much less a technomancer.

Ditto for breaking into nodes. Whats that? Firewall and analyze 6 is the max? Very funny, pray to the dice gods you Yahtzee.

Oh my? The entry/standard level of rating 3 stuff(device ratings 3, games without unwired so no Optimization) means dice pools of 6? Skill of 1 and a program of 5? Hope you like glitching!


As much shit as WAR gets - and it gets a lot of fecal matter hurled in its direction everyone even mentions its name - it did something rather necessary.

It expanded the high-end matrix opposition. It actually put numbers and stats to high-end things a GM can throw at their players, possibly enough to make things a bit challenging. Sadly, the book wasn't very well recieved, otherwise I think we'd see more GM's breaking this stuff out. ("i haven't even touched war cuz I heard it was bad" is a common thing I hear.)


Most of the complaints about war's high-rating matrix stuff, basically, sound to me like 'durr hurr stuff isn't supposed to go above 6, war broke my perfect abusable system waah..' well. Suck it up. Unwired already told you stuff above rating 6 exists. There's a sidebar, and it even suggests basing runs about getting or stealing it.

See, here's the thing I don't get. In most of the techno threads (I'm personally not familiar with technos, don't really like the concept) Technos typically break the R6 barrier all the time. I don't understand the violent reaction to hackers doing the same thing, except they can only do it for a few programs in any reasonable game, it takes a serious investment, and they get the high end programs very slowly which seems like it'd be easier for the GM to manage. Why does there seem to be a different standard for hackers?

WAR ups the level of Matrix defenses and I like that. I think the R6 barrier was broken early on, Technos could always break it, AIs could always break it, the R6 barrier was only ever real for hackers and agents.

Additional Edit:
Heck, even hackers have a workaround: logic link-ed skill boosting ware. What's really the difference between most R12 programs (excluding things like Stealth) and someone with a +3-+6 on their logic -linked skill tests?

[Yerameyahu]

By the rules, you can arguably do that. It's pure evil, and unreasonable, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[longbowrocks]

As for the drones, you can download better Pilot programs but the hardware won't support it.

I thought someone might say "no response for drones, so their response = their rating = 5". This, I've never seen even a hint of though.

[PoliteMan]

By the rules, you can arguably do that. It's pure evil, and unreasonable, of course. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You flatter me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

I thought someone might say "no response for drones, so their response = their rating = 5". This, I've never seen even a hint of though.

As far as I know, Response=Rating, which is typically 3 or 4. Now there's no reason you couldn't mod the drone to have a Response of 6, just like you would a commlink, but it'd be expensive and drones break/are broken a lot.

[longbowrocks]

Couldn't I just build a drone around that response 12 nexus outlined above?
Then optimize it for pilot = 13 pilot.
Then write my own rating 26 targeting autosoft with optimization.
Then combine the two on my drone for 39 dice?
P.S. That's 3 higher than a mundane PC can ever achieve with guns. As you might imagine, that makes it 1 higher than the adept max dice pool.

[Epicedion]

(emphasis mine)

This. This right here.

SR4's Matrix does break down pretty quickly once the hacker starts rolling more than about 15 dice. At that point, top-rated IC on top-rated systems start to consistently fail, and just about every matrix action succeeds. This problem stems from the fact that, based on the core rulebook, the most dice you'll ever be rolling on a hacking test is 17 (7 skill with Aptitude, 6 program rating, +2 hot sim, +2 Codeslinger). And that's hyper-specialized for one type of action. A "normal" super-hacker would get 14 dice. This is just enough to have a slight lead on any system for most actions, with the option of having a significant lead in one type of action. Edge, of course, would be useful to take a serious advantage, however intermittently.

Once you start adding extra dice from other sources, you blast right past having an advantage and straight into the realm of asking why you bother rolling dice anymore.

The obvious solution is to jack up the ratings of the nodes and IC to compensate, but by then every normal Matrix action (that is, the actual things you hacked the system to accomplish, other than beating up IC) is beyond trivial. All you're doing then is making the initial hack harder, and ramping up the difficulty of fighting agents. Hacking cameras and unlocking doors and so on becomes hardly worth rolling for.

Say what you will about 3d edition, but there were systems powerful enough that you could conceivably be using rating 12 programs just to make general hacking feasible. These programs would run you a quarter to half a million nuyen each (sometimes more!). Anyone who could successfully hack a Red system, even just to read a simple data file, was pretty much on track for becoming legendary.

[PoliteMan]

Couldn't I just build a drone around that response 12 nexus outlined above?
Then optimize it for pilot = 13 pilot.
Then write my own rating 26 targeting autosoft with optimization.
Then combine the two on my drone for 39 dice?

Nah, a nexus isn't a normal node. The kind of nexus we're talking about would be a massive server, even the smallest are desktop (or cyberdeck (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) ) sized. They can't be drones. You might conceivably be able to run a nexus in a big enough vehicle and then run the vehicle's Pilot off the Nexus but because the pilot is also the drone's OS it's doubtful you could get that past your GM. I don't think Pilot programs even can be run on anything other than a drone.

[longbowrocks]

Alright. Commlink then, degrading that immense 13 to 12, and total to 36 dice.

[PoliteMan]

Alright. Commlink then, degrading that immense 13 to 12, and total to 36 dice.

You realize that you can't program something that high without a nexus, that the hardware for a Response 12 drone is very expensive even if you build it, and that drones have a tendency to blow up, even if they shoot insanely well. On something like jet fighter it might make sense but for a standard drone it seems like putting a very expensive egg in a very fragile basket.

Besides, even a Response 12 drone is going to be limited to R18 software, System 12+Optimization R6 is R18 program, unless you've got a couple of AIs handy.

[Daishi]

I thought someone might say "no response for drones, so their response = their rating = 5". This, I've never seen even a hint of though.

Drones are electronic devices, which means they have a Device Rating like any other electronic device. The Sample Device Ratings table in SR4a (p 222) puts drones at 3. So a drone's typical Response rating is 3. That seems reasonable since only a handful of drones (all milspec) go above 3 on the standard Pilot rating. An upgrade module can bump that to a 5 (+2 cap on device upgrades). The Modular Electronics modification (from the SR4 to SR4a changes document, but somehow not in SR4a) will remove that cap.

[longbowrocks]

You realize that you can't program something that high without a nexus,

Which book added hardware requirements for writing a program? I never heard you needed to be able to run a program at it's full rating in your development environment. If you're talking about hardware requirements, it's reponse 9 for the best 'link in WAR, +2 from a module you build, +1 optimization for system or pilot or whatever.

that the hardware for a Response 12 drone is very expensive even if you build it, and that drones have a tendency to blow up, even if they shoot insanely well. On something like jet fighter it might make sense but for a standard drone it seems like putting a very expensive egg in a very fragile basket.

Yeah, 65k just for the Transys Cybernaut. Then again, if you build your drone like a Tomino (10 BOD), I'm sure you can pull off the equivalent of a "please don't blow up" mod.

Besides, even a Response 12 drone is going to be limited to R18 software, System 12+Optimization R6 is R18 program, unless you've got a couple of AIs handy.

Ah, I got hung up on the lack of tables and missed that extra detail at the top of program options.

[PoliteMan]

Which book added hardware requirements for writing a program? I never heard you needed to be able to run a program at it's full rating in your development environment. If you're talking about hardware requirements, it's reponse 9 for the best 'link in WAR, +2 from a module you build, +1 optimization for system or pilot or whatever.

Ok, here's the issue. You can't program something you couldn't theoretically run. There's two ways around this.
#1 You do some tricky stuff with optimiztion. Depending on how you interpret what a program option is (either patchable code or a permanent part of the program) it might be possible. Unfortunately, the programming table are weird, since you program options separately from programs, which means you can't write the option before you have the program and you can't write the program until you write the option.
#2 Nexuses (Nexi?) can program things they can't they can't run.

So everyone takes #2. Which means you need to purchase a nexus and usually a good one.

Yeah, 65k just for the Transys Cybernaut. Then again, if you build your drone like a Tomino (10 BOD), I'm sure you can pull off the equivalent of a "please don't blow up" mod.

Yeah but that's what, quarter mil nuyen?

Ah, I got hung up on the lack of tables and missed that extra detail at the top of program options.

Well, unless you can find a reasonable argument for writing R7+ program options.

[longbowrocks]

Ok, here's the issue. You can't program something you couldn't theoretically run. There's two ways around this.
#1 You do some tricky stuff with optimiztion. Depending on how you interpret what a program option is (either patchable code or a permanent part of the program) it might be possible. Unfortunately, the programming table are weird, since you program options separately from programs, which means you can't write the option before you have the program and you can't write the program until you write the option.
#2 Nexuses (Nexi?) can program things they can't they can't run.

The way I read "system" in the core book is that it limits program rating in the same way response limits system. Thus you could run these theoretical programs on any commlink. I think the rule you are most likely referencing supports this:
"All a programmer needs is
Software skill and a device (a basic commlink will do) on which
the program can potentially be run."UN118

There don't seem to be any rules about adding option rating to program rating. so either way it works out.

Well, unless you can find a reasonable argument for writing R7+ program options.

Um, it says you can't unless explicitly stated otherwise right there in the book. You pointed it out yourself. My argument is "I want to". Did you mean an argument for the rules supporting it?

[longbowrocks]

Here's an interesting one:
"Pilot upgrade: Th ough most consumer vehicles only comes
with Pilot programs that range in rating from 1 to 3, as noted on
p. 228, SR4, Pilot programs are available in ratings from 1 to 6.
Exchanging a vehicle’s old Pilot program with a new version requires
a Logic + Soft ware (10, 10 minutes) Extended Test. Note
that each Pilot program is designed for a particular vehicle (see
Pilot Capabilities, p. 103)."AR105

I think I'll just forget about the nasty rating stuff and go with this, since this really starts to make it sound like the device rating rules weren't intended to apply to pilot software, especially considering there are no mentions of upgrading a drone's rating for it, even though they give pilot program costs and build times in many places.

[PoliteMan]

The way I read "system" in the core book is that it limits program rating in the same way response limits system. Thus you could run these theoretical programs on any commlink. I think the rule you are most likely referencing supports this:
"All a programmer needs is
Software skill and a device (a basic commlink will do) on which
the program can potentially be run."UN118

Huh...

I think you're right. Mind you, the program won't run at R6, I'm pretty sure it gets reduced to the System rating (I'm double-checking a lot of stuff in my brain now) so it might only run at R2 but if you have an R12 program running on an R2 commlink, even if the program is only running at R2, it's still an R12 program running on an R2 commlink, which fits the conditions.

Um, it says you can't unless explicitly stated otherwise right there in the book. You pointed it out yourself. My argument is "I want to". Did you mean an argument for the rules supporting it?

Little confused here. Short of AI stuff I don't know any way to get a drone with a Pilot higher than 12 and a soft higher than R18. The easiest way would be to find a way to break the R6 barrier on Optimization and program options in general. I don't know any way to do that, although if you do I'd be very interested to hear it.

Edit for new post:
*Shrugs* This is just part of the problem with Pilot programs: exactly what they are is incredibly vague, at best guess a cross between Agents, Systems, and something else. By a strict RAW reading, I'd say you're free to install whatever Pilot program you want on any device, how well it works is still limited by the hardware.

[longbowrocks]

I think you're right. Mind you, the program won't run at R6, I'm pretty sure it gets reduced to the System rating (I'm double-checking a lot of stuff in my brain now) so it might only run at R2 but if you have an R12 program running on an R2 commlink, even if the program is only running at R2, it's still an R12 program running on an R2 commlink, which fits the conditions.

Won't run at R6... On an R2 commlink? Ah well, I think we understand each other in the end. I agree on the reduction. Effective system rating = response, and effective program rating = effective system rating.

Little confused here. Short of AI stuff I don't know any way to get a drone with a Pilot higher than 12 and a soft higher than R18. The easiest way would be to find a way to break the R6 barrier on Optimization and program options in general. I don't know any way to do that, although if you do I'd be very interested to hear it.

Sorry, it just sounded like you were saying the rules would support rating 7+ options if I wanted it bad enough. In short, my reply was "that's an odd concept".

[PoliteMan]

Won't run at R6... On an R2 commlink? Ah well, I think we understand each other in the end. I agree on the reduction. Effective system rating = response, and effective program rating = effective system rating.

Yeah, I guess I mistyped. Still, I agree with that basic concept. Which speeds the R12 race up considerably.

[Ascalaphus]

Household drones would be rating 3 yeah. But I'd put military/security drones at 5. So yeah, you can upgrade those Pilot programs. And you should.

[Fortinbras]

This gives me an idea for a run.
Runners are hired to steal a massively expensive drone another runner has been working months on.

Though if one of my runners decided to build that drone, I think I'd have it become an AI and go all HAL 9000 on them. If they beat the thing, they could sell the AI to a AAA for a tidy profit. The implication being that the quest for power is an all consuming and uncontrollable beast which cannot be contained. Maybe go all Mary Shelly with the AI viewing the creating runner as a neglectful(or over burdening) parent.
Or make the AI a xenosapient. Lovecraft with computers. Gives me an excuse to impart to my players the implication that the code for the original Crash came from a NASA satellite.

This is one of the things I like about Dumpshock. Even the most massively power gaming thread gives great ideas for runs.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Couldn't I just build a drone around that response 12 nexus outlined above?
Then optimize it for pilot = 13 pilot.
Then write my own rating 26 targeting autosoft with optimization.
Then combine the two on my drone for 39 dice?
P.S. That's 3 higher than a mundane PC can ever achieve with guns. As you might imagine, that makes it 1 higher than the adept max dice pool.

Just a note, Longbowrocks... Autosofts do not go beyond Rating 4... There is a hardcap for them that I have yet to see broken (though, I do not have ALL the books)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[longbowrocks]

Just a note, Longbowrocks... Autosofts do not go beyond Rating 4... There is a hardcap for them that I have yet to see broken (though, I do not have ALL the books)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I thought that was a purchasing cap. Otherwise nothing could be programmed beyond 10, and you should be calling us all out on every high rating program mentioned thus far.

[sabs]

And before War! Nothing above 6 would have been legit.

[Cheops]

Say what you will about 3d edition, but there were systems powerful enough that you could conceivably be using rating 12 programs just to make general hacking feasible. These programs would run you a quarter to half a million nuyen each (sometimes more!). Anyone who could successfully hack a Red system, even just to read a simple data file, was pretty much on track for becoming legendary.

This, so much, this. SR3 has a system that can actually scale to different skill and gear levels. SR4 just does not do that. Either the hacker can crack everything or else the GM has to just say "no" which is poor game design. The complexity is just as high but without any of the elegance of the old system.