Street Legends (new sourcebook announced by CGL), Stat 'em all! (Review of the Preview) Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Can't wait to see it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

There was a long discussion about that sort of thing amongst us writers, trust me. I think what we settled on was a pretty cool way to handle it.

Did we settle on something finally? I can't remember....

[CanRay]

Someone who wants to cap off their campaign with a run to assassinate Lofwyr?

I'd love to see that.

From the Moon. I think I'd be safe enough there for the fight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Remember folks, the only Great Dragon that has been successfully offed has been Dunkie, and they're still not sure how it was even done.

[Method]

Did we settle on something finally? I can't remember....

Very reassuring Patrick... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Patrick Goodman]

Very reassuring Patrick... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I do what I can. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fatum]

Remember folks, the only Great Dragon that has been successfully offed has been Dunkie, and they're still not sure how it was even done.

Uh, Feuerschwinge? Nachtmeister?

[CanRay]

Must be in German sourcebooks.

Or my being hit. Repeatedly. In the head. Is affecting me again.

[Wakshaani]

There was a long discussion about that sort of thing amongst us writers, trust me. I think what we settled on was a pretty cool way to handle it.

If you'll forgive my brief Reaganism, "Trust, but verify."

Will there be a way for PCs to match the Metahuman NPCs abilities, even if takes ten years worth of Karma, a bankroll worthy of a dragon, and just the right selection of Qualities, or will NPCs be given abilities that PCs can't have (AKA, Yes, Fastjack is better than your PC. He's Fastjack, after all.)?

Don't need details, just some assurance.

(I'll buy it either way mind you!)

[LurkerOutThere]

In a world where a small group of immortals have been playing power games with each other for millennia, is is absurd to think that any mortal could really play them properly. So while I have no problem with giving them physical stats, their collection of knowledge, tactics, and magical power is by definition in a class wholly above the players.

Any game where players can kill a great dragon or an old immortal elf, is NOT Shadowrun. If the players can outplan an immortal who has survived for thousands of years, than the GM is not playing the immortal well enough. Shadowrun is a game where the players scratch out life in the shadows of these powers (and of course the Megacorps, which are the new third set of power players in the sixth world).

You are entitled to believe this, however let me put forth a counter argument:

Immortal elves are stupid, they were stupid when they were first cooked up, their just as stupid now. The game and setting only gets better without them

See, two differing opinions, neither grounded entirely in fact only belief. I've always vaguely blamed the Highlander movie and white wolf for this utterly ridiculous idea that we've got immortal elves running around. It's the best sort of literary short cut, you take a past event, point to one of your characters and say "THEY" were responsible for it. Character gets a competence boost. You would have Immortal Elves take that to the (il)logical extreme, that we have a small cadre of beings that while having their existence being almost completely unknown have secretly been involved in every important event.

Further ok lets say that your immortal elf does exist, and lets say they have perfect memory (something I cannot recall the immortal elves particularly being stated to have). Even if you are the greatest sword fighter in the world you can still take a shot to the eye, you can still state enthusiastically that the cannon crews couldn't hit an elephant from this distance. You can still state that you are immortal and guarantee your death. The simple fact is that as much as we like to tell ourselves otherwise, (meta)humans even magical ones if their based on a human template are still frail creatures when it comes to kinetic force.

P.P.S. I am not saying that no human alive could take on dragons or immortal elves, only that the route is not as a Shadowrunner, but rather as a a business-person with the savy and tenacity to rise to real power in Megacorp. And playing that character over the time it would take is also not the game called Shadowrun.

Actually that is what you are saying, because in Shadowrun Shadowrunners are the pinacle of human potential, full stop, Damient Knight, is a prime runner. That is a convention of the rules system and therefore of the game world.

[Critias]

If you'll forgive my brief Reaganism, "Trust, but verify."

Will there be a way for PCs to match the Metahuman NPCs abilities, even if takes ten years worth of Karma, a bankroll worthy of a dragon, and just the right selection of Qualities, or will NPCs be given abilities that PCs can't have (AKA, Yes, Fastjack is better than your PC. He's Fastjack, after all.)?

Don't need details, just some assurance.

(I'll buy it either way mind you!)

I'm not out to be coy about it, but I'm genuinely not sure what I can or can't say without violating the NDA. Saying "we came up with something" is kosher, I'm certain, but saying what we came up with (or otherwise giving more details) is moving a conversation somewhere I'm not sure is cool. I'll tell you that I know one -- the character I'm handling the chapter and stats for -- is perfectly rules legal, albeit experienced (and as a result, powerful). Talking about other peoples' stuff, though, is something that may rock the boat.

[Wakshaani]

I'm not out to be coy about it, but I'm genuinely not sure what I can or can't say without violating the NDA. Saying "we came up with something" is kosher, I'm certain, but saying what we came up with (or otherwise giving more details) is moving a conversation somewhere I'm not sure is cool. I'll tell you that I know one -- the character I'm handling the chapter and stats for -- is perfectly rules legal, albeit experienced (and as a result, powerful). Talking about other peoples' stuff, though, is something that may rock the boat.

Oh, I understand... I've signed an NDA or two as well. (My work never got picked, but, you know, I was floating around all the same!)

What you said is plenty fine, and I have no intention of prying further. Consider it trusted and verified.

Huzzah!

[Critias]

Personally, I think it's a book that will elicit a strong, albeit mixed, reaction from long-time fans. With stuff like Runner's Toolkit primarily being useful to new Shadowrun players, I think Street Legends is going to appeal the most powerfully to the guys (and gals) who've been in The Sixth World for the long haul. The ones who recognize all the names from that upcoming releases blurb are going to be the ones that love it (or hate it) the most.

Because stats are bring provided, there's going to be room for disagreement. To some campaigns a badass might not have the numbers to back up his badassery, in other campaigns they'll be completely untouchable. Depending on the power level of any given GM/player, and their expectations, some folks will be flabbergasted at how tough some of these guys are, while others will be unimpressed and think they're weak; that's just the nature of supplying stats to something.

The fallout of a book of this nature without those stats, though, would be akin to War! levels of irritation among the community (and just as rightfully so, in my opinion). Not many people want all fluff and no crunch at all, right? So in addition to focusing on these legends and giving more detail about who they are and what they do, in addition to attaching some plot hooks and metaplot elements to keep them useful to many a campaign, in addition to having some sweet artwork lined up in what's going to be a gorgeous book...we're givin' 'em all numbers.

Like always, though, our numbers aren't the game. You and your buddies slinging dice around a table, sharing pizza and Mt. Dew, is the game. Tweak 'em like you want to to make them fit your power level, if you think changes are needed.

[ggodo]

I'd love to see that.

From the Moon. I think I'd be safe enough there for the fight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Remember folks, the only Great Dragon that has been successfully offed has been Dunkie, and they're still not sure how it was even done.

My last campaign ended with the powergamer trying to kill Lofwyr after Lofwyr sent the team to the moon. Lofwyr backhanded him through the wall. While in human form.

[Kesendeja]

RAW there is no way to have a skill higher than 7, but on pg 303 in the 4A book dragons have a Assensing of 8, and Sorcery Group of 8. And lets not talk Great Dragons with their skills of Conjuring Group 8, and Sorcery Group of 12. I know they're dragons, but if they breaks this consistently, GM's should have the options however rare and expensive for NPC's and the occasional PC to be able to do the same with some sort of guideline.

[Stahlseele]

Uh, Feuerschwinge? Nachtmeister?

Nachtmeister was killed by another Great dragon. Lofwyr to be exact i think.
Feuerschwinge was shot down over the Sox but survived to become a toxic mutant great dragon of Radiation.
Wether or not she was killed in a simple napalm bombing run later on is up to debate . .

[CanRay]

Nachtmeister was killed by another Great dragon. Lofwyr to be exact i think.
Feuerschwinge was shot down over the Sox but survived to become a toxic mutant great dragon of Radiation.
Wether or not she was killed in a simple napalm bombing run later on is up to debate . .

OK, so one Great was taken down by the Second-Most Great Dragon (Other than Dunkie) of the time.

As for the other... Napalm killing a Dragon? Great, now we have a Toxic Mutant Great Radioactive Dragon (Gojira?) with burn scars.

[hermit]

The fallout of a book of this nature without those stats, though, would be akin to War! levels of irritation among the community (and just as rightfully so, in my opinion). Not many people want all fluff and no crunch at all, right? So in addition to focusing on these legends and giving more detail about who they are and what they do, in addition to attaching some plot hooks and metaplot elements to keep them useful to many a campaign, in addition to having some sweet artwork lined up in what's going to be a gorgeous book...we're givin' 'em all numbers.

A guide on how to use powerful NPCs in games would be handy, though, and add to the gaming value of such a book. And maybe a guide to adapt the stats to different power level groups.

The worst thing about War, though,wasn't that it was all fluff and no crunch (it certainly wasn't), it was the extremly low quality of writing, especially in the crunch section (with things like Slow, the broken mega damage rules, statted nukes that do less damage than a bunch of grenades). In the end, a product rises and falls with it's production quality most, concept second only.

And while we're at it, whatever happened to 99 bottles?

[TheOOB]

While I'd like to be excited, I can't shake the feeling that we'll pay for a full gaming book that will contain some good stories and stats on characters you're unlikely to ever use, when it might be better to drop the stats and just have a cheap paperback book full of short stories.

The again, could be great, time will tell.

[hobgoblin]

RAW there is no way to have a skill higher than 7, but on pg 303 in the 4A book dragons have a Assensing of 8, and Sorcery Group of 8. And lets not talk Great Dragons with their skills of Conjuring Group 8, and Sorcery Group of 12. I know they're dragons, but if they breaks this consistently, GM's should have the options however rare and expensive for NPC's and the occasional PC to be able to do the same with some sort of guideline.

That is overlooking the special edge related power that great dragons come with...

[Stahlseele]

OK, so one Great was taken down by the Second-Most Great Dragon (Other than Dunkie) of the time.

As for the other... Napalm killing a Dragon? Great, now we have a Toxic Mutant Great Radioactive Dragon (Gojira?) with burn scars.

Basically.

[LurkerOutThere]

A guide on how to use powerful NPCs in games would be handy, though, and add to the gaming value of such a book. And maybe a guide to adapt the stats to different power level groups.

And while we're at it, whatever happened to 99 bottles?

Do you really think this, that there should be a whole book devoted to how to use powerfull NPC's in your games? You'd really rather set that then statblocks and info splats? Because i find this nitpick absurd.

[Grinder]

It may be part of te book - hermit didn't demand it to be a complete book.

[Fatum]

Nachtmeister was killed by another Great dragon. Lofwyr to be exact i think.

Yeah, Lofwyr it was.

Feuerschwinge was shot down over the Sox but survived to become a toxic mutant great dragon of Radiation.
Wether or not she was killed in a simple napalm bombing run later on is up to debate . .

I'm so totally putting my tinfoil hat on.
No, seriously - isn't that whole "Feuerschwinge is aliiiive and she's gathering an army of toxic mutants" just a conspiracy theory? I haven't gotten to reading SOX...

That is overlooking the special edge related power that great dragons come with...

Dragons have their own innate magic tradition inaccessible to other races; it takes thousands of years for a Great to reach the height of his power.
Whether there are rules for duplicating that or not, where are you getting the NPCs to use them?

[Stahlseele]

No, seriously - isn't that whole "Feuerschwinge is aliiiive and she's gathering an army of toxic mutants" just a conspiracy theory? I haven't gotten to reading SOX...

Yes and no. It was detailed in a Novel and there are Hints about it in the SOX book i think.
But no Body was found. Again.

[Sengir]

Yes and no. It was detailed in a Novel and there are Hints about it in the SOX book i think.
But no Body was found. Again.

The book got lost during my last move, but I'm quite sure that it left open the possibility of the "dragon" being nothing but an illusion cast by the toxic or that mad Arab (hey, I didn't make up that pun) mage...