Grinder
May 23 2011, 06:50 AM
http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/upcoming-products/QUOTE
STREET LEGENDS (Setting)
Swap Bullets between shots, or Shots between bullets
At the end of a run, you’ve either got a good story to tell, or you’re dead. Live long enough, and you’ll get enough stories to fill a book, and some of them will be killer. There is a certain class of people out on the streets that runners love to talk about, the people at the center of the stories swapped late at night over a round of wiper fluid hooch. Some of them are good, some of them are lucky, and some of them are among the most powerful creatures of the Sixth World. All of them, in their own way, are legends.
Street Legends profiles forty renowned figures in the Sixth World, including JackPoint stalwarts such as Haze, Kane and Puck; classic runners like Serrin Shamander and Tommy Talon; and powerful behind-the-scenes figures including Lugh Surehand, Nadja Daviar, and the great dragon Lofwyr. Learn about hunting vampires with Martin De Vries, breaking into impossible places with The Smiling Bandit, and trying to put a face to the elusive Hans Brackhaus.
Street Legends contains short fiction bringing these characters to life, as well as text describing each person and what makes them a legend. Also, each and every person profiled has complete game stats. Even the dragons.
I'm not really excited. Who needs game stats for Lofwyr or Harlequin?
hermit
May 23 2011, 06:56 AM
Especially considering how these stats will rub someone the wrong way. Because with statted NPCs that'S always the case. I can see why Serrin or Talon can be statted (though do your research when you do this!), but overall ... I dunno. I'm more interested in whatever happened to 99 bottles.
Mäx
May 23 2011, 08:21 AM
QUOTE (Grinder @ May 23 2011, 09:50 AM)
I'm not really excited. Who needs game stats for Lofwyr or Harlequin?
I don't know, but doesn't really matter if the fluffy bits are crunchy, you can always just ignore the stats.
Sengir
May 23 2011, 09:18 AM
(and that's not an argument against atheism)
Well, I though I was on my way to reconciling with CGL...the new books are not exactly great, but they show promise and care instead of carelessly throwing some textual hackjobs at us. Then I read the new product announcements in Spy Games and headed to
http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/upcoming-products/ to find some more info...if only I didn't
QUOTE
STREET LEGENDS (Setting)
Swap Bullets between shots, or Shots between bullets
At the end of a run, you’ve either got a good story to tell, or you’re dead. Live long enough, and you’ll get enough stories to fill a book, and some of them will be killer. There is a certain class of people out on the streets that runners love to talk about, the people at the center of the stories swapped late at night over a round of wiper fluid hooch. Some of them are good, some of them are lucky, and some of them are among the most powerful creatures of the Sixth World. All of them, in their own way, are legends.
Street Legends profiles forty renowned figures in the Sixth World, including JackPoint stalwarts such as Haze, Kane and Puck; classic runners like Serrin Shamander and Tommy Talon; and powerful behind-the-scenes figures including Lugh Surehand, Nadja Daviar, and the great dragon Lofwyr. Learn about hunting vampires with Martin De Vries, breaking into impossible places with The Smiling Bandit, and trying to put a face to the elusive Hans Brackhaus.
Street Legends contains short fiction bringing these characters to life, as well as text describing each person and what makes them a legend. Also, each and every person profiled has complete game stats. Even the dragons.
I think I will just let this speak for itself, because I hate to sound like Frank with his caps lock stuck...
Sengir
May 23 2011, 09:33 AM
Eh, I'm getting old...
Grinder
May 23 2011, 09:36 AM
Seems so.
Sengir
May 23 2011, 09:39 AM
Great, so I can sit on the porch and gripe at the depraved state of today's youth. Where's my rocking chair?
LurkerOutThere
May 23 2011, 10:01 AM
Well I'm pretty optimistic. But then again i love any book with info on characters in the world. This love goes double if it's got shadowtalk on the characters and pictures so i can plunk it down in front of my players who haven't been playing the game forever and say "This is what you could reasonably look up on this character." Any setting immersion is good by me. If you don't like the stats in the book, change them. That's not a reason to be afraid of statting characters.
Further in regards to Harly and Golden Snout: One of the things I really really really hated about the H modules back in the day is the he doesn't have stats, he just beats you mentality, because what drew me to shadowrun is everyone can bite it.
TheOOB
May 23 2011, 10:14 AM
Ehh, the info in the book sounds interesting, but I hope it's cheap. With no options for player characters, no pre-made adventures, and what sounds to be disjointed setting info(a little bit about a lot of things, so not enough to really help you build a campaign), there doesn't seem like there will be much in enhance the SR experience, just provide an interesting read.
EDIT: Woot 1,000 posts.
Grinder
May 23 2011, 10:27 AM
Well, it seems to be that's the way CGL wants to go...
QUOTE
ARTIFACTS UNBOUND (Campaign)
Four artifacts have been found. Some of the most powerful people in the Sixth World have been after them, and many people have died in the globetrotting hunt to bring these objects together. Now that they have been recovered, their powers can be unleashed—or the artifacts can be scattered, lost again until another generation summons the courage and the knowledge to dredge them up.
Artifacts Unbound concludes the Dawn of the Artifacts campaign that makes gamemasters and players free to determine the events of the campaign. Filled with adventure seeds, basic setting information, and NPC statistics, Artifacts Unbound lets gamemasters select the elements that would work best in their campaign and design a thrilling story for their game. Easy to use and flexible, this book can be used with players who have gone through the entire Dawn of the Artifacts campaign, or with players just learning about the artifacts and their effect on the Sixth World.
CONSPIRACY THEORIES (Deep Shadows)
War rages in Central America, spies race here and there across the globe, and tales continue to spread of four powerful artifacts and the feats accomplished by those who manage to get their hands on them. To many, the world is becoming more disordered and unpredictable—but there are those who look underneath the surface chaos and see order, or even a plan. They see people and organizations who pull the strings and make the world shake, and they wonder if they can find out what these people are up to before it’s too late.
Conspiracy Theories is a deep dive into the underbelly of the Sixth World, a place filled with crackpot theories and insane ideas that would be laughable if it weren’t for the fact that some of them are most assuredly true. If the want to stay alive, shadowrunners need to know this information so they can stay a step ahead of the forces that may be massing against them behind the scenes. If they want to prosper, they really need to know this data, because any runner worth a damn knows that manipulating people based on what they believe is true is a great way to make a few nuyen.
Bringing together plot elements from War!, Spy Games, and the Dawn of the Artifacts series, Conspiracy Theories adds a twisted element to Shadowrun games.
CORPORATE INTRIGUE (Campaign)
You could dabble in organized crime. You could do some smash-and-grabs. You could find all sorts of ways to pick up a few nuyen here and there. But everyone in the Sixth World knows that if you want to make a play for the big bucks, the real high-level stuff, you’ve got to get in bed with the corps.
The corps have the money, and they’ve got all the power that comes with it. If you want to have some of that cash and some of that pull for yourself, you’re going to need to stay alert, move quickly, and remember that while corps are willing to pay for things that help them, deep down they really hate sharing what they’ve got with anyone. Including shadowrunners. Especially shadowrunners.
Corporate Intrigue provides a wealth of plot points and adventure ideas to allow gamemasters to develop corporate-centered campaigns. Building on information provided in Corporate Guide, Corporate Intrigue provides the story information, location details, and NPC statistics to make running a corporate-themed campaign as easy, fun, and brutal as you want it to be.
No metaplot, just random NPCs, locations and half-assed adventure seeds.
Kesendeja
May 23 2011, 10:36 AM
Way back when this book was called Prime Runners, and i admit to getting alot of use out of it. So personally I'm looking forward to the new book. I especially hope to catch up on some dearly loved NPC's.
Sengir
May 23 2011, 10:55 AM
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 23 2011, 11:01 AM)
That's not a reason to be afraid of statting characters.
If something has stats, it's confined to those stats. Any further activity of these characters will be limited by those stats...unless they are so vague that you might as well have none
And of course, if it has stats players will kill it
Tiralee
May 23 2011, 11:32 AM
If it's got stats, you can kill it.
Although I've always had a soft spot for old Martin DeVris, Vampiric Vampire hunter, if only because I sold him a weapon focus once. I want to see that Aztechnology Mage's face when he tries to reclaim that F10 Obsidian sacrificial dagger from Martin....
-Tir
LurkerOutThere
May 23 2011, 11:47 AM
QUOTE
If it's got stats, you can kill it.
I will never understand why people think this is a negative thing.
hermit
May 23 2011, 11:56 AM
QUOTE
No metaplot, just random NPCs, locations and half-assed adventure seeds.
Wasn'T Conspiracy Theories supposed to
destroy revisit the London setting? Seems more like this is more of the Deep Shadows books. Not my favourites, but so far, Spy Gamesis not War!. It's as you said, it's showing some promise.
I wonder why they focus so heavily on canned NPCs though. It's not like that'S what makes a setting usable. Setting info does (suprise). NPCs need to be statted for every group'S playing style. In canned adventures, adapting NPCs to my group's power level is the most time intensive part in preparation for me.
YMMV, but since I hardly ever use official NPC stats anyway, I don't care much for the numbers. I'm interested in what they made of these NPCs stores - okay, some of them, not all. I could care less about most Jackpointers.
If I were to stat Harlekin, btw, I'd build him via standard rules, and give him 1 Karma for ach year of his life (that's around 10.000 Karma). Same with Lofwyr (using the Dragon PC rules, and a custom dragon race called great form that adds half the base stat value again). I'm positive the attributes actually assigend to them will be ludicrously low. So I will ignore them anyway.
Overall, that book seems a tad superfluous. I'd prefer just a story book, but meh, I can deal with ignoring stats.
Magus
May 23 2011, 11:56 AM
Because most if not all of the street legends should only be PLOT Devices and the stats left open to the GM. I DO NOT want Lofwyrs stat or Harley's they cause ripples in the Meta Plot that change the world. I do not want to be contrained to a static number. If I want Harley to be a triple digit Initiate then I will do so because the module says I can make up his stats to do what I need him to do.
This book looked good until they stated everyone will be statted. I would love the Fluff involved but seriously Jason Hardy and CGL, for the love of Ghost Why?
suoq
May 23 2011, 12:13 PM
"Harley uses his 'Expert Edge' ability."
"What does that do?"
"It allows him to use edge multiple times for the same action"
"That's not in the book!"
"You got the Player's edition. It's in the GM's edition. Right here. In blue ink."
Magus
May 23 2011, 12:16 PM
LOL Awesome suoq!
Prime Mover
May 23 2011, 02:31 PM
If it's got stats, you can kill it.
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 23 2011, 06:47 AM)
I will never understand why people think this is a negative thing.
Prime Runners was a mixed bag of runners when it came out including some Prime runners and some not so prime runners. But I got plenty of use and story seeds out of it. As for stating some power players I think it's well past time. If I'm not happy with them as a GM I can adjust them...and having something rather then nothing to go on is a benefit. I'm really really curious to see the take on some of these npc's.
Let's look at the stating of unkillable's another way. Just because Richard Villers is never stated doesn't mean he's immortal or all powerful. I imagine his physical stats are underwhelming. Granted his security is probably tighter then a national leaders. My players will probably never get a chance to take a shot at him but that doesnt mean they couldn't if they really wanted too. And other then messing with my fanboy canon sensibilities it's just a game and my game after all. I'd let them try.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
May 23 2011, 02:39 PM
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ May 23 2011, 07:31 AM)
If it's got stats, you can kill it.
Prime Runners was a mixed bag of runners when it came out including some Prime runners and some not so prime runners. But I got plenty of use and story seeds out of it. As for stating some power players I think it's well past time. If I'm not happy with them as a GM I can adjust them...and having something rather then nothing to go on is a benefit. I'm really really curious to see the take on some of these npc's.
Let's look at the stating of unkillable's another way. Just because Richard Villers is never stated doesn't mean he's immortal or all powerful. I imagine his physical stats are underwhelming. Granted his security is probably tighter then a national leaders. My players will probably never get a chance to take a shot at him but that doesnt mean they couldn't if they really wanted too. And other then messing with my fanboy canon sensibilities it's just a game and my game after all. I'd let them try.
Indeed... At least let them have the chance, even if it is doomed to failure. Who knows, they might get lucky...
I am happy to see this book coming out, personally.
Vuron
May 23 2011, 02:46 PM
I looked back at Prime Runners not that long ago and it was underwhelming. Many of the the NPCs that received full stat blocks weren't that useful and many of the the ones that were useful were either hideously overpowered or underpowered.
A book of Prime Runners is useful for GMs that don't have the time to build a new Prime Runner every time they need one but often these types of projects turn into an excuse for massive fanwank.
From a sales perspective it's probably fine to include stats for the IEs and GDs because some people will buy those products just to have them but from a utility perspective there doesn't seem to be a consensus to how powerful NPCs should be vis-a-vis the PCs. Some people will view a Initiate 10+ Mage as target practice and others will be turned into sidekicks by the DMPC.
Personally I'd limit the NPCs with actual statblocks to the Superior class NPCs (Frosty, Man of Many Names) and leave anyone truly superhuman (FastJack, IEs, GDs) without stats.
Magus
May 23 2011, 02:51 PM
Did Dragons of the Sixth World for 3ed have all thier stats? I cannot remember as I never picked that one up. I would an e-book similiar to Legends, but I do not want to stat up FastJack. I do not want to hear at my table
"I am better than Jack, so I am gonna hack his site and Spoof his Persona"
Sengir
May 23 2011, 03:13 PM
QUOTE (Magus @ May 23 2011, 03:51 PM)
Did Dragons of the Sixth World for 3ed have all thier stats?
Of course not. So far, Great Dragons and other power players have always been the mysterious power players behind the scenes, and not some puny NPCs to throw at your players - so they didn't even need stats, players would never take a shot at Big L anyway.
IMO this book idea can be summed up in three words: Desperate attention whoring. Now all we need is a "Shadowrun prequels" series which reveals stuff like the Nightwraith Incident - because prequels have worked well in just about every SciFi universe, right?
hobgoblin
May 23 2011, 03:16 PM
QUOTE (Magus @ May 23 2011, 04:51 PM)
Did Dragons of the Sixth World for 3ed have all thier stats? I cannot remember as I never picked that one up. I would an e-book similiar to Legends, but I do not want to stat up FastJack. I do not want to hear at my table
"I am better than Jack, so I am gonna hack his site and Spoof his Persona"
And that is when ol' Jack calls in his web of contacts and basically drop bear the PC into oblivion...
That is one thing that is seriously overlooked in SR, and other games of similar settings, your strength is as much who you know as what you can do...
Take the latter books of Dark Heresy for instance, when the power of the character shifts from being about gears and skill to being about the authority that comes with ones position...
Hell. Back in SR3, Slamm-O was considered dangerous not (just) because of skill. He also had the ability to go from prankster to biz in zero flat.
Wakshaani
May 23 2011, 03:17 PM
Well, we've got stats for Great Dragons, and several have been published before (Mostly the younger ones, mind you, but still)
So, getting an actual statblock for Lofwyr? No big.
I didn't see a mention of any Immortal Elves, but, Conspiracy looks like a place that they'd pop up in. Be kinda nice to see them put on paper, just because I have a bad taste in my mouth to this day of the Harley-Erhan "This is too cool for you to participate in, but you can watch us" Eliminster-ish swordfight from way back. And finding out if Harley is a 10th, 12th, 50th, or 100th rank intiate will at least end the endless loops of talk around here.
Hida Tsuzua
May 23 2011, 03:22 PM
Honestly when you have legendary NPCs for a published product, you have 2 options. Give them stats or not. If you give them stats, then they'll be underpowered or you jack it up to over 9000 and nothing can stop them (I've heard this has happened in Exalted). If you don't, then everything is all magical tea party and they often become supermen to slap the PCs around (see most of White Wolf). There's no good way to balance them over so many parties and play styles.
Overall, the book would seem like something I'll check out if I got it free. It'll be interesting to see if I can make a starting character that can outhack Fastjack.
hobgoblin
May 23 2011, 03:23 PM
As for the lack of metaplot, i think it was dialed back because people felt their characters where just along for the ride.
This was also why they tried to bring the game back down to street level when SR4 was fresh, tho later books like War have likely shifted that back up.
MJBurrage
May 23 2011, 03:25 PM
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ May 23 2011, 06:47 AM)
I will never understand why people think this is a negative thing.
In a world where a small group of immortals have been playing power games with each other for millennia, is is absurd to think that any mortal could really play them properly. So while I have no problem with giving them physical stats, their collection of knowledge, tactics, and magical power is by definition in a class wholly above the players.
Any game where players can kill a great dragon or an old immortal elf, is NOT Shadowrun. If the players can outplan an immortal who has survived for thousands of years, than the GM is not playing the immortal well enough. Shadowrun is a game where the players scratch out life in the shadows of these powers (and of course the Megacorps, which are the new third set of power players in the sixth world).
P.S. if it is part of the publisher's meta-plot, or a game master's campaign arc that one of these power players is taking out another using the players as pawns, that would be different, and stats are still not really needed, since it is the machinations of one of those players, and the
deus ex machina provided, that really do the job in the end.
P.P.S. I am not saying that no human alive could take on dragons or immortal elves, only that the route is not as a Shadowrunner, but rather as a a business-person with the savy and tenacity to rise to real power in Megacorp. And playing that character over the time it would take is also not the game called Shadowrun.
hermit
May 23 2011, 04:31 PM
QUOTE
Take the latter books of Dark Heresy for instance, when the power of the character shifts from being about gears and skill to being about the authority that comes with ones position...
Yeah, and requisitioning relics. Besides, is it just me or are ascended Sisters the better Marines? With Heresy Begets Retribution's Mantle of +3 to everywhere, B.C. Power Armour, and a paint-on body glove, they get the same armour as a Terminator and no movement penalties, with faith powers they can buff themselve ssenseless against the harsher foes, and with the ressurrection talents, they're multiplying their wounds by their Fate, essentially ...
... oh, and thanks to Rogue Trader, you can then go and requisition a Grand Cruiser. Yeah, Influence is everything in Ascended Dark Heresy.
QUOTE
IMO this book idea can be summed up in three words: Desperate attention whoring. Now all we need is a "Shadowrun prequels" series which reveals stuff like the Nightwraith Incident - because prequels have worked well in just about every SciFi universe, right?
Will you stop giving them ideas?! QUOTE
If you don't, then everything is all magical tea party and they often become supermen to slap the PCs around (see most of White Wolf). There's no good way to balance them over so many parties and play styles.
You could give stats in three versions for low, med and high powered groups, I guess, but then again why then stat them at all. A Crunch guideline "statting my Big Playa NPC" and a ranking system from "equal" to "elder being" to give guidelines on power might be a better idea.
Fatum
May 23 2011, 04:35 PM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ May 23 2011, 07:17 PM)
Well, we've got stats for Great Dragons, and several have been published before (Mostly the younger ones, mind you, but still)
Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?
QUOTE (hermit @ May 23 2011, 08:31 PM)
Yeah, and requisitioning relics. Besides, is it just me or are ascended Sisters the better Marines? With Heresy Begets Retribution's Mantle of +3 to everywhere, B.C. Power Armour, and a paint-on body glove, they get the same armour as a Terminator and no movement penalties, with faith powers they can buff themselve ssenseless against the harsher foes, and with the ressurrection talents, they're multiplying their wounds by their Fate, essentially ...
Well, Marines have unnat stats and all those rad moves.
Vuron
May 23 2011, 04:42 PM
Well you can interact with the big 4th world movers and shakers in a variety of ways without being insta-gibbed or making them chumps.
1)The old-timers squad aren't omnipotent or omnipresent. Even GDs understand that true power is not your physical might or magical prowess but what sort of influence you have on the world around you. As such they use their vast resources and contacts to influence the world. For the most part they individually have massive even mind-boggling resources but they are dwarfed by the Megacorps (Lofwyr being the primary exception). They are just enormously focused and can afford to play the long game.
2)Just like individual runners can afford to target and foil Megacorps without getting slaughtered, Runners can engage with GDs and IEs as both allies and adversaries. If you have a serious hate-on for Lofwyr you can try to foil his plots, granted other people like Mina Graf-Beloit and Johnny Spinrad have tried the same and failed but you can at least slow him down.
3) GDs and IEs seem to be enjoying a certain level of detente between themselves. As such interactions between them rarely get to the fisticuffs phase. Low level proxy wars using deniable assets seem to be order of business. I think it's definitely doable to work with one faction against another faction and as long as you behave yourself for the most part the IEs and GDs don't summarily execute each other's pawns lest the detente crumble.
4) It doesn't serve their interests to go Ghostwalker on the non-awakened very often. You want people to respect your might but not rise up in opposition to oppose you because a) mundanes have some pretty cool tricks and weapons that can even slay immortals and b) you need to mundanes to do all the stuff you don't have the time or inclination to do, like build kaer/arcologies.
The problem with stating them is that if it has a statblock it's killable unless you give them all sorts of a super secret spells and powers that are DM only don't use. And then you have every powergamer wondering why he can't learn special dragon/ie magic. It's just a bad scene.
So if you absolutely must stat a IE or GD make them a 6th World variation (like Masaru or Frosty or Lady Brane Deigh) don't stat the 4th world heavyweights because that way lies madness.
Vuron
May 23 2011, 04:47 PM
QUOTE (Fatum @ May 23 2011, 11:35 AM)
Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?
Arleesh got a statblock in a 1e adventure and Rhonabwy got a statblock in Prime Runners. I vaguely remember some sort of White Wolf Inphobia with stats for another GD back in the day but it was probably noncanonical and I can't find my copy of it.
Harlequin has some rough guidelines about him but IIRC there are no canonical IE statblocks. You could probably take Zessler's Prime Runner statblock as a good starting point though.
Prime Mover
May 23 2011, 04:47 PM
QUOTE (Fatum @ May 23 2011, 12:35 PM)
Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?
Stats for younger greats introduced in SR4 page 297 and can find them in SR4A on page 304.
Wakshaani
May 23 2011, 04:56 PM
QUOTE (Fatum @ May 23 2011, 04:35 PM)
Uh, where are the stats for Greats?
Also, younger Greats?
Looks like they covered the basics above, buuut...
Arleesh is statted out in Bottled Demon.
Rhonaby is in Prime Runners
Masaru is statted up in CyberPirates
"Generic" Great Dragon is in SR 4's critter section, page 300-ish.
Been at least a half-dozen normal dragons printed up as well.
Lofwyr's a wee bit stronger than those mentioned up above, obviously, but his main strength comes from his head and resources, not his (admitedly impressive!) magical side. I want to say that the Lung is the strongest magician of the Great Dragons, but Rumiyo's probably #2. Dunk was up there as well, but had a different directon, so I don't think he'd mastered to Lung's level. (Personal opnion, mind.)
Critias
May 23 2011, 05:03 PM
Depends on what you mean by magician -- in terms of summoning (though maybe not spellcasting), Ghostwalker's always been the big dog on the porch.
Wakshaani
May 23 2011, 05:06 PM
QUOTE (Critias @ May 23 2011, 05:03 PM)
Depends on what you mean by magician -- in terms of summoning (though maybe not spellcasting), Ghostwalker's always been the big dog on the porch.
Quite true! With the average Great Dragon having Sorcery at 10, I'd personally put Lung on top with a 12, and give Ghostwalker the standard Sorcery 10 but give him Conjuring 12 to Lung's 10.
Similarly, an average Great Dragon has Charisma, Intuition, Logic, and Willpower at 13. Ol' Golden Snout would benchmark around a 15 Logic, IMHO, possibly as high as an 18, since he runs all of S-K in his head. Hestaby's probably more charasmatic, Aden likely has more Agility due to his fightyness, and so on.
KCKitsune
May 23 2011, 05:08 PM
I would have liked it better if the GD & IE were never defined. Just a generic "The Powers in the Shadows" beings. These being lived as long as they have because they don't sit still long enough for anybody to get a really good look at them.
Critias
May 23 2011, 05:16 PM
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ May 23 2011, 12:08 PM)
I would have liked it better if the GD & IE were never defined. Just a generic "The Powers in the Shadows" beings. These being lived as long as they have because they don't sit still long enough for anybody to get a really good look at them.
Yeah, but when that route gets taken, people complain about Mary Sues and GM fiat and metaplot domination and stuff like that (heck, some people
still gripe about Harley not being fully statted up in adventures that are 17+ years old, and I remember complaints that Lofwyr wasn't statted in the old
Prime Runners book!). Supplying some stats for old favorites (and a few new names), but most importantly supplying some in-depth information on them all, some cool Shadowtalk, and some plot/adventure ideas that include these guys? Some folks are really gonna dig that sort of thing.
There's not gonna be a rule in
Street Legends (or anywhere else) that says any given GM
has to use the material being provided. If you aren't a fan of the big-name NPCs, maybe the book's just not up your alley, and that's cool. But if you want the fluff and not the crunch, CGL hasn't got commando teams on standby to kick in your door if you stat up Lofwyr differently for your game, or alter the Body of Talon, or whatever else you want to do. It's your game, rock out however you want to.
Wakshaani
May 23 2011, 05:25 PM
I do worry a bit, however, about rules being broken, or needing to invalidate rules, for some stuff.
For example, let's take Fastjack. You have to assume he was some sort of Prodigy talent allowing a computer skill (Hacking? Combat?) to be a 7, rather than a 6. If he has a Hacking skill of, say, 9, then on the one hand, he probably deserves it but on the OTHER hand, there'd better be some notation of how someone can break the rules like that. Maybe a notation of "Legendary Talent", where the usual cap on stats and skills can be pushed through ... if you try hard enough. Pay 10 times the usual Karma cost and you can break the rules, allowing you to have no *real* limit in your ability.
WHich pushes us back down to some of the older Shadowrun days, which is a bad thing in many eyes and a good thing in many others.
But if you just toss Fastjack out with a Cybercombat of 13, it isn't fair to the playerbase who can never get past a 7.
So ... there's going to be some tough calls to make, here. (Errr, there were some tough calls to make, I should say. All the work is long done.)
Stahlseele
May 23 2011, 05:43 PM
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ May 23 2011, 06:47 PM)
Stats for younger greats introduced in SR4 page 297 and can find them in SR4A on page 304.
DTSW had Stats for 3 or 4 kinds of Dragons.
Child, Adolescent, Adult and Great, where Great was simply:"Take Adult and add 10 or 15 to every stat" i think.
Prime Mover
May 23 2011, 05:45 PM
Rhonabwy stat block in PR had his magic listed at 25. With some physical drain could cast at force 50 *grin*. Earlier edition of rules.
edit: Mentions him casting between force 5 and 20 for most spells. Guess he figures why show off.
Sengir
May 23 2011, 05:49 PM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ May 23 2011, 05:56 PM)
Rhonaby is in Prime Runners
And even in that much-loathed product, the descriptions say something to the end of "not that all of this matters, he always wins". In other words, when in doubt ignore the stats and switch back to GM handwaving.
PS: Shouldn't "complete game stats" also include a complete list of contacts? Now that's going to be quite a list
Bull
May 23 2011, 05:51 PM
*shrug*
One thing to keep in mind... This isn't just a "Big Book of Stat Blocks". It also includes history, stories, and backgrounds on these characters. For some characters, it'll be completely new material since we don't know much about them. For others, it'll be compiling information from over two decades of canon into one location for newer players that don't have the older books.
And hey, GMs can always tweak or ignore statblocks as needed. Hell, even back in the old Basic/1st/2nd D&D days... If I wanted 3 or 4 or 10 HD Orc, I made one, even though Orcs were clearly 1 Hit Die creatures by the Monster Manual. Lord knows I don;t always stick to the stats given in the SR books now. I modify everything to fit the challenge level I want to present to the players... If it's supposed to be easier, I tone it down. If it's harder, I tone it up. <shrug>
Stats are a tough spot, because a lot of time you look at them, and they're just ridiculous. They're either way too low, or their obviously cheese-munched 6 ways from Sunday. SR4's stat/skill restrictions (and the fact it's so damn easy to cap out at character creation) makes it even tougher.
But, if the book was released sans-stats, just as many folks complaining about their being stats would be complaining that their weren't any. So easier to give stats and say "Ignore these as needed".
And hey, if your players complain, smack them upside the head with the book.
Bull
Fatum
May 23 2011, 06:39 PM
QUOTE (Critias @ May 23 2011, 09:16 PM)
But if you want the fluff and not the crunch, CGL hasn't got commando teams on standby to kick in your door if you stat up Lofwyr differently for your game, or alter the Body of Talon, or whatever else you want to do. It's your game, rock out however you want to.
Stalin used to say so too!
Headshot_Joe
May 23 2011, 06:42 PM
Everybody GMs this game differently, every group runs at a different level of power and ability, and most importantly, everyone has their own perceptions of these mythical characters. I don't mind if CGL stats them out. If I don't feel they're at the right power level for whichever game I am running that may feature them, I will restat them for that adventure. If they aren't meant to be fathomable, I simply won't stat them, and maintain their mystery status.
There will be times the group will want to play a grittier game with impossible enemies, there will be times they wish to unlimber the pinkest mohawk rifles of ultimate power and go on a great dragon killing spree. Who am I to deny them their desired campaign?
I am more excited for the updated information on all these awesome folks than I am to nerd rage about the stats.
Also, I am completely ashamed of all you Dampsharkers for letting any thread that mentions Nadja Daviar to go this long without the mention of lusty brown elven nipples!
Prime Mover
May 23 2011, 07:22 PM
QUOTE
Also, I am completely ashamed of all you Dampsharkers for letting any thread that mentions Nadja Daviar to go this long without the mention of lusty brown elven nipples!
Damn how'd that happen....must have been the tease of dice pools in the triple digits that distracted us. *joke*
SirBedevere
May 23 2011, 08:10 PM
We've always lilked the concept that IE and GDs have enough Karma to pick up any skills they need at whatever level they need and Magic that's out of sight of any mortal. Having said that we came up with a couple of ways to kill them (the team were working for Alimais, opposing a dragon killing sect - long story); the sect intended to use a sniper with a laser rifle aiming at the eye.
A large number of IEs could be got rid of by hitting Portland with a Thor shot. Getting one's the difficult bit
Stahlseele
May 23 2011, 08:28 PM
Alamais got hit by orbital Laser Cannons and is still alive to grumble about it . .
redwulf25
May 23 2011, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (Grinder @ May 23 2011, 02:50 AM)
http://www.shadowrun4.com/products/upcoming-products/I'm not really excited. Who needs game stats for Lofwyr or Harlequin?
Someone who wants to cap off their campaign with a run to assassinate Lofwyr?
Critias
May 23 2011, 08:40 PM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ May 23 2011, 12:25 PM)
I do worry a bit, however, about rules being broken, or needing to invalidate rules, for some stuff.
There was a long discussion about that sort of thing amongst us writers, trust me. I think what we settled on was a pretty cool way to handle it.
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