Heh,for example Ebon Dragons stat line from Return of the Scarlet Empress is little over 5 pages long

... What? I was thirsty!

Why, exactly, is the Artwork for Dodger on the FastJack's Rambling Introduction Thing page, and yet his name does not show in the ToC?


If you were a Shadowrunner, would you want to have your profile hosted like this?


The sensible way to deal with the SR4 Matrix as a shadowy person.


Can't help but agree here. My Rigger has a much better set of cyberware. Starting with a few suites designed according to Augmentation rules. And goddamn deltaware. And please reformat the gear list. It is just unreadable like that.

The Legendary rule could just be called MariSoo Rule, because that's what it is. Another rule from CGL worth a double facepalm.

Could someone explain what's wrong with Rigger-X's stats? Apart from the gear list formatting, I get that part.

Like, why aren't riggers allowed to have high Reaction, etcetera?

Dodger? Errr, nope. No Dodger. Look at the ears. Round.

Bull

It is just one of many things like rule mistakes, stats that are plain and simple way too bad for a "legendary" rigger etc.

And I didn't even read the "Gear" section because it just hurts the eye.

cya
Tycho

I think you missed the part of the preview where it specifically noted that some characters aren't "legendary" because of their stats, but because of some intangible (AKA unstattable) traits.

Translation: Just because you're a legend, doesn't mean you're the absolute best in the biz of what you do. It just means you've stayed alive long enough and been lucky enough to make a significant name for yourself, either because of or despite your actual capabilities.

Besides, what did you expect? That they'd just max all relevant stats and give the best gear in the game to each legend? Seems rather pointless to do that, doesn't it?

Huh. Beause the image when posted in the initial news bit was called "Dodger".


Yeah, making being a Mary Sue a quality is a great idea, right up there with Slow. As in, it's among the stupidest things I have seen in any gaming supplement yet.


Statting them? Yep, it does. And their Mary Sue quality makes it a lot worse.

Where are you getting this "Mary Sue quality" think from?

It's an optional rule. Don;t like it, don't use it. Simple enough.

As for "Dodger", I assume you're talking the Facebook thread where Jason posted the preview pic? http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=101...e=1&theater

Dodger was a guess by a few people, but Jason confirmed that it was Puck.

The preview. Have you read it, even?


This. Please note all the Legends in this book seem to have it. That's the "intangible quality" thing.


Yeah, and it will cause rules debates, like this stuff always does. Way to enrich gaming sessions.


Yup, I do. Okay, but I am certain the file was named Dodger. o it is Puck, and he is not dead. Pity.

Looking at the table of contents I don't recognize most of them. Are they mostly 4e era runners?

Where the heck are you getting that from, there no mention of in that box.
It's in fact the second succestion,for those who want something more systematic, first being using optional cinematic rules from the core for everyone when a legend is around, witch is pretty much a complete opposite of Mary Sue characters.

Almost no PC will ever obtain that "quality", so it's pretty much never going to cause rules arguments at a table. The 500 karma would have to be earned in game, and if you wanted Legendary status ASAP, you'd have to STOP SPENDING karma after 400. Sure, you'll benefit in the long run. 10+ sessions later, anyway. Not sure about you, but karma is still really important to me to be able to spend even at that level. Especially if you happen to be playing an awakened or resonance based character. So I'd be hard pressed to intentionally try to withhold 100 karma that could be so damned useful on so many other things.

Do I miss 4+ = success in SR? Sure. Am I going to spend 100 karma to get it back on a single character that will likely become retired and thus not played very soon? Not a friggin' chance.

It seems you don't understand how the rule is worded. This is a quality, something you can acquire or slap onto an NPC of your choice, not something that is there for everyone, by that rule.


Depends on how Karma is given in your games. And 10 sessions isn't all that long.

Rigger X made a bit more readable:
Athletics skill group 1
Automatics (Submachine Guns) 2 (+2)
Blades 3
Con (Impersonation) 2 (+2)
Dodge 2
Electronics skill group 3 (5)
Electronic Warfare 4 (6)
Etiquette (Corporate) 2 (+2)
Gunnery 4
Hacking (Drones) 4 (6) (+2)
Mechanics skill group 2 (4)
Navigation 3,
Perception 4
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) 4 ( (+2)
Pilot Anthroform (Remote Operation) 3 (7) (+2),
Pilot Ground Craft (Remote Operation) 4 ( (+2)
Pilot Watercraft 2 (6)
Stealth skill group 3

Maybe what the additional number in the brackets means is explained elsewhere in the book, but on a first look HUH?

He has a couple nano- and genemods that add to skills based on intuition or reaction (AFB right now). I think it may be that.

Yes the second optional rule succestion in that box is a 100 karma quality, the first one is to use some of the cinematic play optional rules for everybody when using a legendary NPC in the game.

I would guess that the first bracket is the modified skill rating counted by adding in the dice bonuses from his ware and the second one is the standard +2 from specialization.

I would in a second. Lets say you have a 12 die pool you now get 6 hits on average instead of 4, you would need to get that pool to around 18 to duplicate that.(which would likely cost 100 karma to do anyways, but this quality is for all your pools not just 1 of them) And if you cap at 20 die pools this is the only way to really pump successes past that 20 die pool.

10 sessions or more of no spending karma at all. From game inception to legendary would be 50ish sessions. So assuming you play every single week, it'd take you almost a year IRL to get enough karma to pull it off. My group *does* play every week, and we only get 5-7 karma per session (even with the higher attribute karma costs). So it'd take us almost double that. It's not worth it.

I do wonder if i should take a vacation from the whole SR fan-sphere...

Seems all we do these days are bitch about what could have been or should have been...

That'd be my assumption to. Modified skill rating.

It does seem to be going that way, doesn't it?

Been building up since FanPro, I think... Might also be the nature of the Internet, "They changed it, now it sucks" when they adapted things to deal with the way technology moved that wasn't even thought of in the '80s and '90s.

I'm probably going to stick around, however. My spleen needs venting every now and then...

EDIT: The grain of sand that I take from the comments from people that say, "It should be this!" is that, well, have they done any writing for the fan-based projects that abound in DumpShock and languish due to lack of support? I know I've tried a bit myself, and there's also my fan fiction that's been well received. Try to build something before you tear down someone else's work.

Hmmm, for Logic-linked skills the second number does indeed align with the +2 Bonus from his Neocortical Nanites. But where does the flat +4 on all sorts of pilot skills come from?

My initial though was that the extra set of numbers was for GMs wanting to raise the stakes.

No, Hermit, you're the one that's purposefully quoting only part of the rule, and either misunderstanding or misrepresenting it. It's an option. A suggestion. It specifically says so elsewhere in that very box, explaining that both of those rules are completely optional and available only to GMs and players who are interested in them.

If you want to crank it up to 11 when a "legendary" NPC shows up (either as an ally or enemy), cue the slow motion and some cool music, and have everyone start to get hits on 4+ instead of 5+ (mathematically increased the gap between mediocre and high die pools)? Knock yourself out. In fact, not only should you knock yourself out, but you now have a way to get the same mojo for player characters (since PCs are, after all, the heart and soul of a campaign, not NPCs).

If you don't want all that, it's a simple fix: don't use the optional rule. Ta da!

Control rig, and control rig booster (2)

Yeah, like the Resonance Difference. Doesn't make this a better rule.


So not useable supplements are now a feature, not a flaw?

Sorry, not meaning to piss on the entire PDF (haven't seen it so far), but this rule is not really adding anything except baggage and a way to make DMPC hyperpowerful (since, yes, PCs buying this might not be the worst problem and will just effectively remove the PC from any sensible game).

Besides, I hope these samples are from an early, un-proofed draft. Lots of errors in there.

You seem to have a really hard time understanding what the word optional rule means.

You seem to assume optional rules are supposed to be crap.

I don't see a problem with this optional rule. It's at a high enough level that even if it does impact your game, most character will be running out of worthwhile options, and close to retiring.

Thats all i gotta say

Personally I think it is an elegant solution to a contentious problem. With the optional rule you can use the stats provided in the book in pretty much any campaign, and get the desired result. You want Legends to be badder than bad, here you go. You want Legends to be overblown, use the raw stats. You want Legends to shine because of circumstances use cinematic rules. Want something in between mix them to the desired flavor.

Rigger X is statted like a 150 Karma PC at best. Why not stat him yourself? Would fit your group's style better without pissing your players off with "better than you by nature" type PCs. I mean, look how many react to Harlequin, who does not even roll more successes than PC with the same pool by default.

I like the idea of fluffing out major players, but this rule is no workable remedy for the problem with statted NPCs.

And, well, stat blocks like this are extremly hard to read. Who at CGL has this mysterious but strong hatred of proper tables?

Would work by the numbers, but that would be a REALLY weird way of listing modifiers...those things don't add to skills or attributes, but are bonuses like a smartlink

In the good news, the artwork looks nice

Yeah, that's the one improvement with recent releases.

It's a mixed bag, IMO, but for the most part, yeah, the art in Street Legends is really, really nice.

Not on the character I wrote up, mind you, but mostly it's really, really nice.

But I need to stay away from here to protect myself from the haters who haven't even seen the whole damn book yet, and yet have declared it utter shit. I don't understand those people, and they raise my blood pressure, so it's probably time to become scarce again. Civility has, apparently, finally died on the internet, at least here on DS.

As I mentioned before: This Ratings are mostly incorrect BS.

He has Rigger nannites 2 and Neural Amps 2, but the neural Amps only provide a Bonus to Logic based skills, so no bonus to all the pilot skills. (and they don't modify the skill, just bonus dice)

His correct pilot skills are:
Pilot Aircraft (Remote Operation) 4 (6) (+2)
Pilot Anthroform (Remote Operation) 3 (4) (+2)
Pilot Ground Craft (Remote Operation) 4 (6) (+2)
Pilot Watercraft 2 (3)

This is what I am taking about, at least the shitty ratings should be correct, but even that is not the case...

cya
Tycho

I seem to recall the same reaction to Cyberpunk v3, especially from certain people that had invested heavily in extending their own fanon from where 2020 left off.

It may be reaching a peak of sorts now that some of the people that took the most effort inserting fan service for the old hands of the community have left for other projects.

Hermit, your last two pages of post have a heavy coating of rancor. Ease off.

Wow... Seems like everyone gets 10+ Karma per Session... That must be nice. Now I know why everyone seems to dislike the Fluff, and why everyone wants to have higher rated Skill Caps... I have a character I played for a solid 2.5 years (about 130 Sessions or so) and I have YET to get 500+ Karma (Currently at 320'ish). Hmmmmm...

Very True... And yet, I always seem to get a warning when I say it... *Shrug*
Anyways... way to go Canray, I can't agree with you more (Besides, I like your stuff. Very well received on my end, at least)....

Out of curiousity, Patrick, whom did you work on, if I may ask?
And we are not all Haters here.

I wrote up Martin de Vries.

And I'm enormously glad to hear it.

I'm not so much a hater as cranky.

We all have those days. It seems, here in Canada, at least to each other, those days come more and more, though...

Just so we all know who to shoot if it turns out bad.

Just be happy someone is saying something about him, and not just an off-hand comment.

Awesome...

Looking forward to getting this book. It will be in PDF, right? As much as I would like to have a Dead Tree version, finances require a PDF, at least for now.

Yeah, the PDF is supposed to be out Real Soon Now. The dead tree format should be out at GenCon.

One of these quotes is not like the other...

There are two rules in here, that you seem to be lumping together into one in order to cast them both in the worst possible light.

1) When a street legend is active in your campaign, everyone rolls hits on a 4+. Not just the legendary character, but everyone. Emeril shouts BAM and your whole campaign kicks it up a notch, getting a little more cinematic and over-the-top, inflating the difference between hum-drum security schmucks' die pools and over-the-top action superstars (your PCs, not just the NPC in question, should be stealing the limelight under this rule). This provides a metagame "boost" and a sense of excitement and the-stuff-legends-are-made-of into your campaign, so that players are psyched to be running alongside (or against!) one of the Sixth World's big names.

2) As a separate rule, players can eventually achieve a sort of legendary status themselves, if you're in a high powered campaign and they've got the karma to spend. If someone has the points and your campaign opts to use this rule, any PC that wants to can get their very own epic level knack, and show they've hit the big leagues by being the coolest of the cool and scoring hits on a 4+.

The NPC version grants the ability to entire scenes at a time, and is a purely metagame conceit to ramp up the level of cinematic fun if the inclusion of a legendary character calls for it. The PC version is a way for a given player character to just be that awesome all the time. Both are optional, but not exactly equal. If a legendary NPC is around, your PCs reap the benefit of the special rule (since PCs are the focus point of any campaign, and as such Shadowrun as a whole). If it's a PC that's shelled out the karma for the rule, that PC reaps the benefits of the special rule (since PCs are the focus point of any campaign, and as such Shadowrun as a whole). Either way, it's not something that's unique to "overpowered" and "broken" "Mary Sue" NPCs.

And, again? Both are clearly stated as being suggestions for high-octane over-the-top campaigns, and if you don't want to use them, don't use them. Their inclusion shouldn't be making the whole supplement "not useable," and if it is I think that's a problem with you, and not the supplement.

It's a fucking game. What's more, despite late SR3 and early SR4 conceits to the contrary, Shadowrun as a whole shouldn't be taken seriously enough that it should even be called a "sensible game," any more than any RPG should. Personally? It's a ridiculous, silly, amazing game about elves and wizards and computers and orks and submachineguns and stompy robots and mirror shades all at once; rolling handfuls of dice and being awesome is the only thing to really worry about, in the greater scheme of things. If rolling even bigger handfuls of dice and being even more awesome, alongside characters known from novels and sourcebooks, is your thing? Rock out, buy the book, get a better handle on some metaplot and some infamous characters, and have fun.

If that's not your thing, and you prefer a "sensible game," then fine, but that doesn't make it a bad book. The fact you won't be using it doesn't mean it's not useable (and for the record I mean the generic "you," here, not necessarily Hermit as an individual). Different folks have always glommed onto different aspects of Shadowrun, loving or hating various NPCs (or ignoring them completely), loving, hating or ignoring various slices of the metaplot, loving, hating, or ignoring various parts of the setting...that's just the nature of the beast, particularly when it's a beast with 20+ years of baggage.