Hermit, you understand that deltaware aquisition isn't supposed to be a formula right? It's not a "Get X karma, proceed to deltaware clinic" kind of game world. It is quite believable if they stay true to the setting that even many legendary runners won't have deltaware, because deltaware should always involve selling your soul to somebody. Custom cyberware suites are likewise a weird grey area, because honestly I've never allowed them and I've never played with a GM who does.
I know it's hard to come to grips with but legendary doesn't always have to mean twinked. It can,but it's hardly the expected norm.
Full Version: Street Legends (new sourcebook announced by CGL)
The preview doesn't really tell me quite enough - the big question is whether or not they will bite the bullet, and go ahead and give stats to things like immortal elves and great dragons. With all of the hard limits built in the game, with a finite number of potential modifiers, beyond which you can not go, there is no reason not to have stats for everything in the game.
And don't tell me "Well, I'm worried they won't be so tough in a high-powered campaign." A high-powered campaign has the same limits as everyone else, unless the GM is using house rules, in which case, either it is the kind of campaign where the PCs do fight great dragons and such, or the GM can fiddle with the base stats to bring them up to his campaign's inflated level.
But the movers and shakers need some hard numbers, already. Simply making them invincible by GM (or authorial) fiat is a cop-out.
Great dragons and immortal elves should survive by being cunning, planning for contingencies, working through intermediaries a lot, and having lots of resources and connections. But shadowrunners and hit squads should still be something they take precautions for, not something they effortlessly no-sell.
I like that legends, while tough, might not have the absolute highest dice pools. They are legends because they lived long enough to become legends. They should have more breadth of skill than a starting PC, some hard-to-acquire gear, good Attributes all around (unless a particular dumpstat has become their "heroic weakness"), and, most importantly, connections. A legendary face might still not roll as many dice as a player's dryad adept with tailored pheromones, but should still usually be able to accomplish more by having lots of contacts, speaking five different languages, personally knowing the mayor, and what have you.
A few things I didn't like. The picture of Bull was nice, and how I think most orks should look like. But contrast that with the female "ork" in the other picture. What the frag? That thing has a face like a damn warthog! That's nearly always been one of Shadowrun's major weaknesses, art-wise; no consistency in the depictions of orks and trolls. Half of them look more like decaying radioactive mutants than metahumans. I think "How the hell does this critter even close his mouth without biting his lips off?". It's more of a shame with that picture, though, because it was otherwise well-rendered.
The other thing I didn't like was the notion, put forward once again, that if you make off with the corporation's multi-million prototype, no hard feelings, but if you shoot a few of the rent-a-thugs, then all hell's gonna break loose on you. I can see the company taking it more personally if you blow up buildings, slaughter office workers, and loot anything that's not nailed down, but shooting it out with the guards is a frickin' staple of the game. Honestly, reading parts of Bull's background, I could only think "Wow, sounds like a crappy, vindictive GM." Maybe the actual game was different, but from nothing but what is presented here, it sounds a bit contrived that every time the group killed someone, they had someone knocking on their door for vengeance. I'm not saying runners shouldn't run into consequences, but it should happen every once in a while, not always.
Despite the negatives, it still looks like it could potentially be a good book. Some very good writing in places, and nothing that really raises any red flags (I'm glad that "legendary" rule is optional, though, because I really don't care for it that much).
And don't tell me "Well, I'm worried they won't be so tough in a high-powered campaign." A high-powered campaign has the same limits as everyone else, unless the GM is using house rules, in which case, either it is the kind of campaign where the PCs do fight great dragons and such, or the GM can fiddle with the base stats to bring them up to his campaign's inflated level.
But the movers and shakers need some hard numbers, already. Simply making them invincible by GM (or authorial) fiat is a cop-out.
Great dragons and immortal elves should survive by being cunning, planning for contingencies, working through intermediaries a lot, and having lots of resources and connections. But shadowrunners and hit squads should still be something they take precautions for, not something they effortlessly no-sell.
I like that legends, while tough, might not have the absolute highest dice pools. They are legends because they lived long enough to become legends. They should have more breadth of skill than a starting PC, some hard-to-acquire gear, good Attributes all around (unless a particular dumpstat has become their "heroic weakness"), and, most importantly, connections. A legendary face might still not roll as many dice as a player's dryad adept with tailored pheromones, but should still usually be able to accomplish more by having lots of contacts, speaking five different languages, personally knowing the mayor, and what have you.
A few things I didn't like. The picture of Bull was nice, and how I think most orks should look like. But contrast that with the female "ork" in the other picture. What the frag? That thing has a face like a damn warthog! That's nearly always been one of Shadowrun's major weaknesses, art-wise; no consistency in the depictions of orks and trolls. Half of them look more like decaying radioactive mutants than metahumans. I think "How the hell does this critter even close his mouth without biting his lips off?". It's more of a shame with that picture, though, because it was otherwise well-rendered.
The other thing I didn't like was the notion, put forward once again, that if you make off with the corporation's multi-million prototype, no hard feelings, but if you shoot a few of the rent-a-thugs, then all hell's gonna break loose on you. I can see the company taking it more personally if you blow up buildings, slaughter office workers, and loot anything that's not nailed down, but shooting it out with the guards is a frickin' staple of the game. Honestly, reading parts of Bull's background, I could only think "Wow, sounds like a crappy, vindictive GM." Maybe the actual game was different, but from nothing but what is presented here, it sounds a bit contrived that every time the group killed someone, they had someone knocking on their door for vengeance. I'm not saying runners shouldn't run into consequences, but it should happen every once in a while, not always.
Despite the negatives, it still looks like it could potentially be a good book. Some very good writing in places, and nothing that really raises any red flags (I'm glad that "legendary" rule is optional, though, because I really don't care for it that much).
So, we're agreed, wait until the PDF comes out to judge it in full, not based on what the little preview we've seen so far, eh?
QUOTE (Glyph @ Jul 16 2011, 11:02 PM) 
The preview doesn't really tell me quite enough - the big question is whether or not they will bite the bullet, and go ahead and give stats to things like immortal elves and great dragons.
Yes. A hundred times yes, and it's a shame if the preview is somehow unclear on that.
Lofwyr and Lugh Surehand, for instance (to get you one great dragon and one IE), both have full write-ups in here, stats and all. Everyone that's got a mini-chapter in there is someone that comes with several pages of background information, and a full character sheet. There are stats given for everyone listed in that preview. The bullet is bitten.
@Legendary Rules
first Reactions here in Germany (both from Forums and in my own Games) from "Showing the Bird"(it means its a Stupid Idea)to Laughing
to "not in My Games,Never
!! "
Me personally,I know that this rule will never ,ever effect one of my Games, so (for me) it's totally useless....
And to be honest; If I'm playing/GMing at a convention and one Player would show me such a legendary Char I would immediately know he's a Munchkin
@Rigger X Skills
So If the Skills are wrong, I hope that CGL corrects it before printing Street Legends
HokaHey
Medicineman
first Reactions here in Germany (both from Forums and in my own Games) from "Showing the Bird"(it means its a Stupid Idea)to Laughing
to "not in My Games,Never
!! "Me personally,I know that this rule will never ,ever effect one of my Games, so (for me) it's totally useless....
And to be honest; If I'm playing/GMing at a convention and one Player would show me such a legendary Char I would immediately know he's a Munchkin
@Rigger X Skills
So If the Skills are wrong, I hope that CGL corrects it before printing Street Legends
HokaHey
Medicineman
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 17 2011, 03:42 AM)
Very True... And yet, I always seem to get a warning when I say it... *Shrug*
Incorrect. And you know it.
Until the next preview is up or the book can be purchased, this thread is locked. Doesn't make much sense to let the "discussion" style of the last 30+ postings continue.
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