Killing Great Dragons, The end is coming Options

[Christian Lafay]

The lowest listed logic for a standard dracoform of any kind is 8. Great Dragons start at +5 to that (13). How is that not Super-Genius Godzillas? It IS the published rules and stats. SR4A pg 303-304

They can be Super-Genius Godzillas, but that doesn't mean they don't suffer from hubris.

[JanessaVR]

48 is the unassisted overcast. With a magic rating of 24, they can utilize a Power Focus to boost their magic anywhere from 24-120; the maximum total force of all bonded foci cannot exceed magic x5, but SR4A does not say it cannot all be one focus. If we grant that the dragon will have 2-4 sustaining foci for maintaining defensive spells, then we can guess at a Force rating of 1 or 2 times their Magic rating for a Power Focus. That gives us 48 from magic + overcasting, and another 48 for a Power Focus. 96 Force spell. This is neglecting the "Dragons get better than you" fluff thus far for spells available.

Radius of 96 meters, squared times pi, gives us 28.953 sq km (rounded) for a dragon who's defending himself.

Max potential damage would be 168 force total, probably terminal levels of drain, and 88.668 sq km (rounded again) for a dragon who's just focused on making the area cease to exist at all costs. Long live the memory of President Dunkelzhan!


The lowest listed logic for a standard dracoform of any kind is 8. Great Dragons start at +5 to that (13). How is that not Super-Genius Godzillas? It IS the published rules and stats. SR4A pg 303-304

I think you're seriously pushing the #'s here to ludicrous levels with increasingly unlikely explanations, but *if* that's the case, then my other point stands. These beings are the unquestioned, invincible, unstoppable, all-powerful *gods* of the SR world, and the campaign world as it stands should not exist - the dragons rule the world and all lesser mortals are their slaves; I see no appreciable difference between the GDs awakening and Cthulhu rising from the depths of the Pacific. Pick one. Your campaign, your choice, of course. But when I GM, sure as hell not a chance of this in my SR world. I can and will retcon Godzilla-dragon incidents down to less ridiculous levels as necessary. Unless, of course, they're rampaging through Tokyo - that would seem appropriate then.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You do realize, Rubic, that a Power Focus does not add Magic Rating Right?
As of SR4 (And SR4A) A Power Focus ONLY ADDS DICE to the Spellcasting Roll, IT NEVER ADDS MAGIC RATING... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

You do realize, Rubic, that a Power Focus does not add Magic Rating Right?
As of SR4 (And SR4A) A Power Focus ONLY ADDS DICE to the Spellcasting Roll, IT NEVER ADDS MAGIC RATING... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Ah, an oversight on my part. Also, it'd require one hell of a spirit to craft that for you, as there is no other way for such a high-level focus to be crafted (crafter's magic rating is the cap).

Regardless, Dragons are exceedingly powerful, and Great Dragons even moreso. Christian Lafay is right that Great Dragons are not immune to hubris. Real life example, Bruce Lee was arguably the BEST martial artist of his day, perhaps ever. This did not prevent him from getting his back broken by an opponent; the circumstances are moot, as shadowrunners won't play fair against Dragons or Great Dragons either.

Now, Great Dragons are NOT invincible. As far as Shadowrun goes, they are as close as it gets. Frankly, I see taking down a Great Dragon as being a more realistic retirement goal for a runner than opening a bar and being forced to work for a living. YMMV

[PoliteMan]

The lowest listed logic for a standard dracoform of any kind is 8. Great Dragons start at +5 to that (13). How is that not Super-Genius Godzillas? It IS the published rules and stats. SR4A pg 303-304
edit: also SR4 std 296-267

That's ok...
With Cerebral Enhancers III, it's very easy to play a Logic 8 character and both hackers and Logic-tradition mages will be hitting that regularly.
With Exception Attribute and Genetic Optimization a human can hit Logic 8 without Cerebral Enhancers, Logic 11 with them. I'd expect corps to have numerous such people employed, either as lead researchers or board members. I like to think of this as the "Damien Knight" level.
And this is focusing on pure Logic, discounting Encephelon, PuSHeD, Neural Nanites, Trance, Genetic Infusions, Psyche, and all the other wonderful ways you can boost your thinking power in one way or another.
It may be Super-Genius to us or to the Logic 2 Sam but for Cyberlogician hackers and logic-based Mages or Technos GDs are significantly smarter than them but not indecipherable. And for the corps, who actually have to worry about GDs as either threats or investors, it's a business expense to find/build someone who can out think a GD.
Edit: Llofwyr is always the exception but that's not rules, just Rule of Cool.

[CanRay]

The Elder McNinja's showing us how to do it.

[longbowrocks]

Let's say a dragon tosses a dragon-sized power ball on a city. We're looking at about 24 Force overcast max for a STOCK great dragon. Nowhere in the critter listing does it give a MAXIMUM rating for essence or stats for these guys, only what's usual.

I keep seeing people say the minimum stats for an unnamed GD are the ones that are "suggested for GMs when pressed for numbers", and that named great dragons are much stronger. How does a dragon grow that powerful without being named? Additionally, the book suggests these stats while in the same breath stating that great dragons are major power players. This almost sounds as if GD's that are major power players, such as Lofwyr, may have those stats. 12 magic is nothing to be embarrassed about people, and if the dragon can't survive with 12, more probably won't help, so stop inflating numbers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let's say that, despite being alive for several millenia and having your very being tied intimately to the ebb and flow of magic does NOT grant the eldest great dragons any higher than 12 Essence, meaning about 24 magic hard cap including the 12 initiation levels, so 48 max overcast on the force rating of the powerball.

When did initiation start getting limited by essence?

Alternately, they can Twist Fate to make the structure of the city re-roll it's soak successes and keep the result, which will no doubt be less than before.

Maybe. But only "maybe" in the sense that I can "maybe" roll palming against a vast field of stones, and come up with their earnings for that year. That use of twist fate is single target against a creature. The buildings in a city are neither a single target, nor a creature.

[Rubic]

That's ok...
With Cerebral Enhancers III, it's very easy to play a Logic 8 character and both hackers and Logic-tradition mages will be hitting that regularly.
With Exception Attribute and Genetic Optimization a human can hit Logic 8 without Cerebral Enhancers, Logic 11 with them. I'd expect corps to have numerous such people employed, either as lead researchers or board members. I like to think of this as the "Damien Knight" level.
And this is focusing on pure Logic, discounting Encephelon, PuSHeD, Neural Nanites, Trance, Genetic Infusions, Psyche, and all the other wonderful ways you can boost your thinking power in one way or another.
It may be Super-Genius to us or to the Logic 2 Sam but for Cyberlogician hackers and logic-based Mages or Technos GDs are significantly smarter than them but not indecipherable. And for the corps, who actually have to worry about GDs as either threats or investors, it's a business expense to find/build someone who can out think a GD.
Edit: Llofwyr is always the exception but that's not rules, just Rule of Cool.

Baseline for Metahumans will typically be 6, 7 with surge, then 9 with Genetic Optimization and Exceptional Attribute. Max bonus to that would be 4, giving you a boosted 13, on par with a Great Dragon. The Great Dragon can boost themselves, most likely with a sustained magic spell, by 6, meaning an augmented 19. Dragons conceivably have access to everything you do, and magic at a higher rating and an exclusivity that metahumans cannot match. Your augmented stats can reach their baseline stats, but that doesn't mean you can reach their augmented stats. Dragons are SUPPOSED to be better than you. Great Dragons are SUPPOSED to be better than THEM. That's why we can sit around and fire our synapses over how, where, and why our feeble little intellects might overcome their massive paranoia.

[PoliteMan]

Dragons conceivably have access to everything you do, and magic at a higher rating and an exclusivity that metahumans cannot match.

Dragons get ware now? Metahuman drugs work on dragons now? The only dragon I've ever heard of getting any ware was Eliohann and that...ended poorly for him.

Edit:
Dragons are supposed to be better. Given the advance of technology, that gulf is much smaller than it used to be and getting smaller every day (edition).

[longbowrocks]

Dragons get ware now? Metahuman drugs work on dragons now? The only dragon I've ever heard of getting any ware was Eliohann and that...ended poorly for him.

I thought they just didn't get ware because they had too much to lose. Speaking of which, how does such a gigantic creature have 15 agility? Or reaction for that matter. I find it difficult to see a dragon dodging bullets.

[longbowrocks]

Dragons get ware now? Metahuman drugs work on dragons now? The only dragon I've ever heard of getting any ware was Eliohann and that...ended poorly for him.

I thought they just didn't get ware because they had too much to lose. Speaking of which, how does such a gigantic creature have 15 agility? Or reaction for that matter. I find it difficult to see a dragon dodging bullets.

[Rubic]

Dragons don't generally get ware, as stated, because they have too much to lose. The DO get magic spells, should they so desire, with little to lose.

Increase [Attribute], SR4A pg 208, Sustained, (F/2)-2, a version exists for every physical and mental stat, and affects both the stat and derived stats while the spell is active (i.e. Increase Reaction or Intuition would increase initiative, Increase Body increases toxin resistance and damage track, etc.).

Maximum Augmented Stat Value is your Baseline Stat Value * 1.5, RAW, so there's a limit to how good your ware can make you. It's the same limit for magic spells/adept powers. And, yet again, Great Dragons can go higher and do more than you can, without even getting into Great Dragon Exclusives (of which there are [insert arbitrary value determined by GM])

They ARE Super Genius Godzillas. They are better, faster, stronger, bigger, and older than you. They have no maximum age. If you manage to back one into a corner, after all of that, he can wait indefinitely while merely risking a temporary (to him/her) addiction to mana-based sustenance while you grow tired, old, and eventually dead.

They have stats, and so they can die. They have better stats than you, and so you can die, too. It doesn't matter how much your e-peen or geek-peen hurts to see something that clearly outclasses your character in every stat-able way from cradle to grave, it IS rules-as-written and rules-as-intended.

HOWEVER, in nature, when a powerful stress enters the environment, the creatures that survive are not always the strongest; they are not always the toughest, nor the smartest, fastest, etc. The creature that survives will be the most adaptable. Forget that the dragon outclasses you in intelligence, speed, strength, fortitude, etc. Be certain that you outclass the dragon in adaptability, which has always been humanity's (and by extension, metahumanity's) greatest collective strength, and is NOT, in fact, a numerical stat. You can even call in a horror-movie standby: you don't have to be more clever than the Great Dragon, just more clever than GM Fiat.

[Fortinbras]

On the statting of Great Dragons:

I am reminded of the old adage back in the day when the OD&D book Deities & Demigods came out... If you don't want me to kill the Norse god Loki, don't tell me how many hit points he has.

[PoliteMan]

Dragons don't generally get ware, as stated, because they have too much to lose. The DO get magic spells, should they so desire, with little to lose.

I'm pretty sure awakened animals can't get ware. No one has been able to implant a datajack into a dragon (with one cautionary example).

Increase [Attribute], SR4A pg 208, Sustained, (F/2)-2, a version exists for every physical and mental stat, and affects both the stat and derived stats while the spell is active (i.e. Increase Reaction or Intuition would increase initiative, Increase Body increases toxin resistance and damage track, etc.).

Maximum Augmented Stat Value is your Baseline Stat Value * 1.5, RAW, so there's a limit to how good your ware can make you. It's the same limit for magic spells/adept powers. And, yet again, Great Dragons can go higher and do more than you can, without even getting into Great Dragon Exclusives (of which there are [insert arbitrary value determined by GM])

They ARE Super Genius Godzillas.

Ok, let me simplify this debate.
A metahuman can get up to Logic 12 with Surge, gene tweaks, and Exceptional Attribute.
That metahuman can then get up to +10 on all his Logic-linked skills (Nanites, Genes, ware, and BADs)
I'm sure someone else on this board can stretch it higher.
The vast majority of what I used isn't available to a dragon: ware, drugs, SURGE, etc.
Yes, the game allows silly levels of optimization. Yes, Dragons are supposed to be smarter than the runners. But the corps can bring in someone just as smart or smarter. And certain runners are gonna be bouncing around that level.

They have no maximum age. If you manage to back one into a corner, after all of that, he can wait indefinitely while merely risking a temporary (to him/her) addiction to mana-based sustenance while you grow tired, old, and eventually dead.

Leonization put a crimp in that strategy a while ago.

They have stats, and so they can die. They have better stats than you, and so you can die, too. It doesn't matter how much your e-peen or geek-peen hurts to see something that clearly outclasses your character in every stat-able way from cradle to grave, it IS rules-as-written and rules-as-intended.

E-peen? (Huh, thanks Urban Dictionary)
Huh? There are numerous things in SR that are supposed to outclass the PCs in one way or another: dragons, cyberzombies, IEs, vampires, cyborgs, etc. Heck, that's the whole concept behind prime runners. And the game has you regularly assault megacorps with more power than the average PC will ever have a shot at. But none of them are any where near invincible or invulnerable.

HOWEVER, in nature, when a powerful stress enters the environment, the creatures that survive are not always the strongest; they are not always the toughest, nor the smartest, fastest, etc. The creature that survives will be the most adaptable. Forget that the dragon outclasses you in intelligence, speed, strength, fortitude, etc. Be certain that you outclass the dragon in adaptability, which has always been humanity's (and by extension, metahumanity's) greatest collective strength, and is NOT, in fact, a numerical stat. You can even call in a horror-movie standby: you don't have to be more clever than the Great Dragon, just more clever than GM Fiat.

I fail to see how an abstract argument about adaptability affects in any way whether a player character should be able to kill a GD. And trying to outsmart the GM never ends well, this isn't a competition between the players and the GM.

I'm honestly not sure what your position is. I'm arguing two things:
#1 Dragons and GDs are very nasty but they're not the secret masters of the world, or even the most powerful entities in it (again, Llofwyr being the exception). Besides megacorps, who generally outclass everything, GDs still have to contend with a host of other powers that threaten them: national governments, vampire conspiracies, high force spirits, IEs, AAs, the largest criminal syndicates, etc. There's good reason for this as well, if everything ultimately links back to a GD/IE/Vampire plot it gets boring. Invincible enemies also gets boring: that was my biggest complaint in the Harlequin adventures and the biggest one I've heard about DOTA. GDs are big but they're one threat amongst many.
#2 If players want to kill GDs that should be possible, unless the GM has a problem with it. It should be difficult as heck and the GD should have tons of advantages so its appropriately epic but if the GM is going to apply Schrodinger Armor or Super-Divination, he should just tell the players he doesn't want to play that kind of game. It's a waste of time for the players to play it out if the GM is just going to shut it all down with a "Super-Genius Godzilla" speech. If the players can't effect something in the game, why put it in the game at all?

[Ascalaphus]

I'm honestly not sure what your position is. I'm arguing two things:
#1 Dragons and GDs are very nasty but they're not the secret masters of the world, or even the most powerful entities in it (again, Llofwyr being the exception). Besides megacorps, who generally outclass everything, GDs still have to contend with a host of other powers that threaten them: national governments, vampire conspiracies, high force spirits, IEs, AAs, the largest criminal syndicates, etc. There's good reason for this as well, if everything ultimately links back to a GD/IE/Vampire plot it gets boring. Invincible enemies also gets boring: that was my biggest complaint in the Harlequin adventures and the biggest one I've heard about DOTA. GDs are big but they're one threat amongst many.

I'll agree with that..

#2 If players want to kill GDs that should be possible, unless the GM has a problem with it. It should be difficult as heck and the GD should have tons of advantages so its appropriately epic but if the GM is going to apply Schrodinger Armor or Super-Divination, he should just tell the players he doesn't want to play that kind of game. It's a waste of time for the players to play it out if the GM is just going to shut it all down with a "Super-Genius Godzilla" speech. If the players can't effect something in the game, why put it in the game at all?

Not always. I think there's a difference in certain NPCs being "on the table" for attacking and others not. Just because you put Lofwyr in your campaign as the distant, way indirect cause of all manner of plotlines, doesn't mean you're obligated to give the PCs any fair chance to have a go at him.
It's a matter of scale; I wouldn't promise the players that they'll be able to topple an AAA either.

---

Anyway, I don't agree that making GDs so powerful would necessarily mean they'd openly subjugate humanity. I could argue that a lot of them don't want to do that. Some believe that humans are more productive and creative when they believe they're free and working for themselves. Others just aren't that interested in controlling humans, as long as they stay away from their lairs. Maybe they just discovered that an open draconic empire generates much more resistance that secret manipulation, and that secret manipulation satisfies all their actual needs.

I personally prefer to think of it as a precarious balance of power: a military could kill a dragon, but it wouldn't be a sure thing for the military, and certainly expensive. Likewise, a dragon can't really afford to defy the military too much, because they could get lucky, and the dragon has too much to lose (eternal life). So draconic rampages tend to be sudden and brief, and preferably when the military isn't quite prepared for it.
So why don't militaries pre-emptively attack dragons? Why don't they pre-emptively attack neighboring militaries? Politics - people start banding together against such an aggressor. And if you've got many potential enemies, why pick fights you don't need with one enemy if you could be needing those soldiers to defend against another enemy?

[longbowrocks]

So why don't militaries pre-emptively attack dragons? Why don't they pre-emptively attack neighboring militaries? Politics - people start banding together against such an aggressor. And if you've got many potential enemies, why pick fights you don't need with one enemy if you could be needing those soldiers to defend against another enemy?

Dang. This is just itching for a joke involving a certain real-world country, but considering the audience...

[Ascalaphus]

Dang. This is just itching for a joke involving a certain real-world country, but considering the audience...

Let's just say that it doesn't happen more than it does...

[Rubic]

I'm pretty sure awakened animals can't get ware. No one has been able to implant a datajack into a dragon (with one cautionary example).

Ok, let me simplify this debate.
A metahuman can get up to Logic 12 with Surge, gene tweaks, and Exceptional Attribute.
That metahuman can then get up to +10 on all his Logic-linked skills (Nanites, Genes, ware, and BADs)
I'm sure someone else on this board can stretch it higher.
The vast majority of what I used isn't available to a dragon: ware, drugs, SURGE, etc.
Yes, the game allows silly levels of optimization. Yes, Dragons are supposed to be smarter than the runners. But the corps can bring in someone just as smart or smarter. And certain runners are gonna be bouncing around that level.

False assumption. No metatype can get up to Logic 12 base with Surge, gene tweaks, and Exceptional attribute. No metahuman starts with higher than a 6 baseline logic for their metatype, capping baseline boosts at 9, and augmented caps at 13.

For non-metahumans, Pixies, and Fox Shifters can cap unaugmented at 10 with those, meaning an augmented cap at 15, still 4 below dragons with their spells.

Even allowing, for the sake of argument, that dragons cannot cap their skills any higher than a metahuman, they still have spirit assistance, spells that boost the stat by +3 to an augmented cap of 12 including specialization and aptitude. Baseline 28 dice pool not including specialization and aptitude, 31 including both. Hard capped for a pixie or for a fox shifter (neither of which are metahuman, I might add), this comes up to 22 including aptitude, and 24 including skill specialization. Only the fox shifter would have access to all augmentations (requires deltaware).

Leonization put a crimp in that strategy a while ago.

Leonization would mean you had to let up your assault and put yourself in a vulnerable position for several months. It's not an instant, on-site treatment, it requires you to be put under in a vat for a while. That makes you a perfect target for the dragon and his overpowered high-force spirits.

Huh? There are numerous things in SR that are supposed to outclass the PCs in one way or another: dragons, cyberzombies, IEs, vampires, cyborgs, etc. Heck, that's the whole concept behind prime runners. And the game has you regularly assault megacorps with more power than the average PC will ever have a shot at. But none of them are any where near invincible or invulnerable.

The game never has you ASSASSINATE a megacorp, normally the best you do is take it down a notch, or divest it of investors. Cyberzombies generally WANT to die, in the metaphysical sense at least, Vampires are always problematic in any game system (more so in World of Darkness because you have to hear them moaning about how unlife is so dreadful). Immortal Elves... well, that's what's for dinner (hehe). Low-fat, free-range, perfectly-aged, goes with almost any fine wine... I could go on. It's not impossible to steal from a dragon's horde (especially if you consider S-k part of Lofwyr's horde, and extraction missions as just that).

I fail to see how an abstract argument about adaptability affects in any way whether a player character should be able to kill a GD. And trying to outsmart the GM never ends well, this isn't a competition between the players and the GM.

Because the abstract is the one place you could conceivably defeat the dragon. The Gread Dragon has stats. The Great Dragon is also BORED (not a stat). The Great Dragon is also CONCEITED (not a stat). These are the areas where you can outclass and outmaneuver the Great Dragon. That's why, if you expect to defeat one, you shouldn't bother thinking inside or outside the box, because the box doesn't matter in the least. What matters is those abstract advantages and how well you the player can put them to use.

I'm honestly not sure what your position is. I'm arguing two things:
#1 Dragons and GDs are very nasty but they're not the secret masters of the world, ... GDs are big but they're one threat amongst many.

#2 If players want to kill GDs that should be possible, unless the GM has a problem with it. It should be difficult as heck and the GD should have tons of advantages so its appropriately epic but if the GM is going to apply Schrodinger Armor or Super-Divination, he should just tell the players he doesn't want to play that kind of game. It's a waste of time for the players to play it out if the GM is just going to shut it all down with a "Super-Genius Godzilla" speech. If the players can't effect[sic] something in the game, why put it in the game at all?

You got close with "It should be difficult as heck and the GD should have tons of advantages so its appropriately epic..."

I'm not saying that Great Dragons are invincible. I'm saying they're NOT invincible. I'm also emphasizing that they're closer to it than you or your character are, regardless of what augmentations you use. As somebody previously stated, Lofwyr watches EVERY television station for entertainment. One of my own players is notorious for the hijinks he pulls when bored; this is how I know a bored Great Dragon would be infinitely more problematic. If they ever find out about your plot (likely), then it's not simply a matter of retribution, it's also a possibility of them astrally spying on your every move just because they want a distraction and find your antics both amusing and informative.

Everything Ascalaphus said here (just scroll up to read what he wrote, I already hit wall of text a few paragraphs ago!!)

[CanRay]

Dragons get ware now? Metahuman drugs work on dragons now? The only dragon I've ever heard of getting any ware was Eliohann and that...ended poorly for him.

One dragon got drunk.

Very, very drunk.

[Rubic]

Dragon's don't get ware, but they DO get Magician quality for free, which also means access to spells that boost attributes. A default spell from SR4 Core and SR4A is Increase [Attribute]. There's nothing in Core, SR4A, or Street Magic prohibiting a spell called Increase [Skill] to cover what ware and adept powers can. You also have Analyze Device to offer bonus dice equal to net hits when operating said device. I repeat that dragons get a higher casting pool than people, and so have a higher capacity for more net hits. With or without a 2(Stat+Skill) cap, the dragon has a higher potential in a given action. Increase Reflexes spell offers additional Initiative Passes.

When you're as powerful as a dragon, you don't NEED ware.

[sabs]

My take on it is usually this:
It cost Thera 2 Behemoths and untold number of high level Adepts to kill 1 Dragon. And the retaliation was so bad that Ghostwalker(Ice Wing) was able to sit in the Theran capital and murder the Theran Prime Magister, and then just sit there and watch them.

Translated into the modern world. It would take multiple squadrons of combat planes to take one down. A serious division of military units. Not a few drones being run by 1 rigger.

[longbowrocks]

Translated into the modern world. It would take multiple squadrons of combat planes to take one down. A serious division of military units. Not a few drones being run by 1 rigger.

100.
Lockheed Arachnes are cheap. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[ Spoiler ]

I jest, but it's more than feasible to gather that many.

[PoliteMan]

False assumption. No metatype can get up to Logic 12 base with Surge, gene tweaks, and Exceptional attribute. No metahuman starts with higher than a 6 baseline logic for their metatype, capping baseline boosts at 9, and augmented caps at 13...(optimization)...this comes up to 22 including aptitude, and 24 including skill specialization. Only the fox shifter would have access to all augmentations (requires deltaware).

*Shrug* Metahumans can get Logic 12, don't care what terms we use, most teams have a mage for the magical stuff, and corps have access to all the legal magical goop that dragons have. Again, dragons are smart, so is everyone else.

Leonization would mean you had to let up your assault and put yourself in a vulnerable position for several months. It's not an instant, on-site treatment, it requires you to be put under in a vat for a while. That makes you a perfect target for the dragon and his overpowered high-force spirits.

A rigger or hacker isn't incapacitated in the least, nor would a mage who can astrally project, although a face might find VR chats a bit more difficult than face-to-face. So Sams and Adepts get hurt but they probably weren't trying to punch the dragon in the face anyway.

The game never has you ASSASSINATE a megacorp, normally the best you do is take it down a notch, or divest it of investors. Cyberzombies generally WANT to die, in the metaphysical sense at least, Vampires are always problematic in any game system (more so in World of Darkness because you have to hear them moaning about how unlife is so dreadful). Immortal Elves... well, that's what's for dinner (hehe). Low-fat, free-range, perfectly-aged, goes with almost any fine wine... I could go on. It's not impossible to steal from a dragon's horde (especially if you consider S-k part of Lofwyr's horde, and extraction missions as just that).

Huh? You accused me of being offended by something that outclasses PCs. I replied that numerous things outclass PCs and are supposed to. How does this relate to the power of creatures and corps relative to the PCs?

Because the abstract is the one place you could conceivably defeat the dragon. The Gread Dragon has stats. The Great Dragon is also BORED (not a stat). The Great Dragon is also CONCEITED (not a stat)...I'm not saying that Great Dragons are invincible...it's also a possibility of them astrally spying on your every move just because they want a distraction and find your antics both amusing and informative.

This is one interpretation of dragons and one interpretation of the proper way to kill them. I won't say it's wrong or uncommon (I think it goes back to Smaug) and would probably apply to Sirrush, Aden, and Hualpa. One of the great things about SR dragons, however, is that all the greats have very distinctive personalities and histories. While I'm sure they're all proud, I think it hurts the characterization of the dragons to portray all of them as old-fashioned and arrogant. Numerous dragons (Dunklezhan, Hestaby, Masaru) have shown humility and Llofwyr's appearance in "Survival of the Fittest" didn't show him as arrogant, rather very..."professional". It's a strength of the setting that you can't stereotype a dragon's personality.
And having bored dragons astrally spying on runners "out of boredom" is very poor GM behavior.

Not always. I think there's a difference in certain NPCs being "on the table" for attacking and others not. Just because you put Lofwyr in your campaign as the distant, way indirect cause of all manner of plotlines, doesn't mean you're obligated to give the PCs any fair chance to have a go at him.
It's a matter of scale; I wouldn't promise the players that they'll be able to topple an AAA either.

Fair enough but if you have a player, as seems to be the case here, who obviously wants to try to kill dragons there's ways to incorporate that into a campaign that can be a lot of fun. I don't see any problem with that.

I personally prefer to think of it as a precarious balance of power: a military could kill a dragon, but it wouldn't be a sure thing for the military, and certainly expensive. Likewise, a dragon can't really afford to defy the military too much, because they could get lucky, and the dragon has too much to lose (eternal life). So draconic rampages tend to be sudden and brief, and preferably when the military isn't quite prepared for it.
So why don't militaries pre-emptively attack dragons? Why don't they pre-emptively attack neighboring militaries? Politics - people start banding together against such an aggressor. And if you've got many potential enemies, why pick fights you don't need with one enemy if you could be needing those soldiers to defend against another enemy?

I generally agree with the balance of power argument. However, the more powerful the GDs are, generally the less interesting I find them. Ghostwalker stomping on Denver is fairly boring (you might get one good session out of it). Dunklezhan running a massive network of shadowrunners for various purposes while running for the UCAS president is cool. I find it very difficult to combine the scheming Machiavelian dragon with "Super-Genius Godzilla", they just very different archetypes. For NPCs who will not be appearing in many sessions, it's much harder. I think you can have the "stompy" dragon and the "crafty" dragon, and there are examples of both in SR, but you can't really have a dragon be both and I think the "crafty" dragon is much more interesting. This may seem somewhat contradictory to what I said before, so let me clarify:
"Super-Genius Godzilla" is not RAW. Lots of people like use dragons in that way for their games, which is fine, it's their game. I personally find it less interesting than other interpretations of dragons.

[Critias]

Real life example, Bruce Lee was arguably the BEST martial artist of his day, perhaps ever. This did not prevent him from getting his back broken by an opponent; the circumstances are moot, as shadowrunners won't play fair against Dragons or Great Dragons either.

I've got no dog in the "How Great Are Great Dragons" fight at the moment, and I'm not even here to argue against the possibility of hubris, but I just want to ask for any link you've got supporting the Bruce Lee bit. It's been my understanding that he hurt his back lifting weights, not in a fight.

[Christian Lafay]

I've got no dog in the "How Great Are Great Dragons" fight at the moment, and I'm not even here to argue against the possibility of hubris, but I just want to ask for any link you've got supporting the Bruce Lee bit. It's been my understanding that he hurt his back lifting weights, not in a fight.

It all depends who you ask. His wife would swear up and down it happened in a fight like the movie. Everyone else just said "....What?"