Killing Great Dragons, The end is coming Options

[Ascalaphus]

I think that the only way you're able to take out a GD or IE, is if another GD or IE is secretly manipulating you to do so. Because otherwise there's no way they won't know beforehand through Divination, greater-than-Earthdawn style future sight magic, several intelligence services and spirit spies. You need someone on that level who's using his own connections to hide you in order to get close enough undetected.

And if they ever spot you (good chance), it only takes them a single second to cast a Force-more-than-thou spell to instantly vaporise you.

[CanRay]

Also, you are good and crunchy and the ketchup factory delivers.

[Oracle]

I think when it comes to Great Dragons defending themselves GM fiat is perfectly reasonable and adequate. The GD is a superhuman being intellectually far above everything we humans could even begin to comprehend, while I, as a GM, am not. Whatever a pc might throw at one of them: The dragon of course expects it and is perfectly prepared to deal with it. Great Dragons are the top of the global foodchain. They are playing chess-games with megacorps as pawns. You will never be able to outsmart one of them. And what CanRay said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[hermit]

I must say, I am not all for this notion of Dragons Are Better Than You. If you ever get to directly fight a dragon, I'd say roll it. Big if, of course since getting in that spot in the first place (on your terms, not nthe dragon's) is the hard part. Like I wrote, same as with other really powerful SR figures.

[Christian Lafay]

Lol. That may be a way to do this with obstructing the game flow. Everyone loves investors, and this way the entire team could participate.

Just got to do runs that also net you side gear. Got to extract a guy? Ship him out in a crate full of stuff that could furnish your hotel. It's like Leverage, minus. Haha.

[Faelan]

I must say, I am not all for this notion of Dragons Are Better Than You. If you ever get to directly fight a dragon, I'd say roll it. Big if, of course since getting in that spot in the first place (on your terms, not nthe dragon's) is the hard part. Like I wrote, same as with other really powerful SR figures.

Agreed. Once you get in a position to have a chance of kicking it up and down the block, it should not be a "Great Dragons are Invincible" moment. Getting to the point where you have that opportunity is definitely another story, and like you said this goes for any really powerful SR figures. You don't run into Damien Knight at the local Stuffer Shack, and the ninja you sent into his compound gets cacked before he even makes it across the grounds. These beings have a whole different level of security, far better than what you run into protecting a static asset on a difficult run.

[longbowrocks]

SR Great Dragons are not just GM fiat, but they have several unique abilities that combine to basically GIVE them GM fiat, RAW and RAI. They are dual-natured entities, and as such are active on both the spirit and normal plane, perceiving both. Others have listed the MINIMUM stats for them (expect at least double for any named great dragons). Additionally, they probably have as much edge as you and your friends combined, and if they DO die, they can drop edge to not only survive the way a runner can, but leave a believable corpse behind to fool you, chunky salsa or not. The only thing your actions would POSSIBLY do is distract the dragons from whatever machinations they have amongst each other and give them a conversation piece in the form of your petrified body, kept on display and still alive in an 'I have no mouth but must scream' manner.

I do worry about their use of edge. However, AFAIK, GD's are restricted as every other character in that they can only spend one edge per test. Additionally, GD's don't get any additional edge. One of my plans involved forcing the dragon's edge down in opposed edge tests. I suppose the GM might give the dragon the "lucky" quality, based on the guideline that great dragons should always be vastly superior to a player, but then again, that rule doesn't seem to apply to edge, since GD's still have a natural max of 6.

[ggodo]

I think that the only way you're able to take out a GD or IE, is if another GD or IE is secretly manipulating you to do so. Because otherwise there's no way they won't know beforehand through Divination, greater-than-Earthdawn style future sight magic, several intelligence services and spirit spies. You need someone on that level who's using his own connections to hide you in order to get close enough undetected.

And if they ever spot you (good chance), it only takes them a single second to cast a Force-more-than-thou spell to instantly vaporise you.

See, I'd disagree with putting the IEs on the same list as GDs. GDs are inherantly more powerful than any player character, IEs have simply been around long enough to get really good. Elves deal in shadow politics and social manipulation almost exclusively, with their magic there to save their tails if they get caught in direct confrontation. the trick there is to not directly confront the elves, but to maneuver them out of power through talk and cash as best you can. They're public figures, with a lot more to lose if they appear weak, or even if they simply lose influence, because that's all they've got.That aside, I seriously doubt that all Immortal Elves are combat monsters, Just because Harlequin's supposed to the biggest metahuman magical dude ever doesn't means everyone's taken Earthdawn Magic 400. YEs, they're going to be better than any individual, but they're still very mortal if you can get to them. Great Dragons screw with your Edge, know every spell in the game, dozens that aren't, breath fire, fly, and are monsters in a literal sense of the word. Oh, and they have spheres of influence in much more widespread and powerful places. I'm not going to stop Longbow from trying, but I don't think that should be his first stop when the team hits Denver next week.

[longbowrocks]

I think that the only way you're able to take out a GD or IE, is if another GD or IE is secretly manipulating you to do so. Because otherwise there's no way they won't know beforehand through Divination, greater-than-Earthdawn style future sight magic, several intelligence services and spirit spies. You need someone on that level who's using his own connections to hide you in order to get close enough undetected.

I almost like the idea of another dragon aiding me, but they'd probably want to clean me up. Additionally, no one has gotten past any of my mage countermeasures yet, so I should be ok as far as divination goes (I don't have any directed intent or plans yet either, so detect enemies shouldn't factor in).

[longbowrocks]

Also, you are good and crunchy and the ketchup factory delivers.

I'll sacrifice myself and poison the dragon's ketchup. Bwahaha! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
(playing a rigger, if anyone's curious)

[hermit]

What countermeasures are there for divination?

[longbowrocks]

I think when it comes to Great Dragons defending themselves GM fiat is perfectly reasonable and adequate. The GD is a superhuman being intellectually far above everything we humans could even begin to comprehend, while I, as a GM, am not. Whatever a pc might throw at one of them: The dragon of course expects it and is perfectly prepared to deal with it. Great Dragons are the top of the global foodchain. They are playing chess-games with megacorps as pawns. You will never be able to outsmart one of them. And what CanRay said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

In the words of a very powerful man that I would never disagree with:
"Some people think they can outsmart me maybe (sniff) maybe...
...I have yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet...
...Yeeeaaaaahh! Urrraaaa! Cry some more!
Bang!
Heh heh, Cry some more.
(TF2 ending theme plays)"

In all seriousness though, at some point you aren't predicting individuals actions any more, but rather deciphering chaos theory. I guess they can have sniffers and agents all over the place looking for enemies, but how many resources will an effectively invincible dragon spend on searching for human plots against him when there are other dragons plotting against him in the corporate world?

[longbowrocks]

What countermeasures are there for divination?

Which divination spells? Are you talking about a GM made up one, or one in the book?

For example, if the divination is supposed to detect future intent to kill, you could be an AI, which is electronic and therefore technically has no "intent".
If the divination is telling the future, that's broken, but I guess you can always have the dragon ripped apart by the time paradox of preventing his own future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Actually, this sounds like a fluff thing. Have there been any references to the existence of a time stream or manipulation thereof in the books?

[hermit]

I am talking about the metamagic. As I understand it, it cannot be countered. And that's not even taking into account what technomunchkins can do.

In all seriousness though, at some point you aren't predicting individuals actions any more, but rather deciphering chaos theory. I guess they can have sniffers and agents all over the place looking for enemies, but how many resources will an effectively invincible dragon spend on searching for human plots against him when there are other dragons plotting against him in the corporate world?

A lot. Besides, they can also task subordinates with some of that, subrdinates who then report to him.

In all seriousness, macho posturing aside, you're as likely to get a Great in your crosshairs as a runner as you are in the Real World to stab the President (assuming current security measures, not those of 40+ years ago).

[CanRay]

In all seriousness though, at some point you aren't predicting individuals actions any more, but rather deciphering chaos theory. I guess they can have sniffers and agents all over the place looking for enemies, but how many resources will an effectively invincible dragon spend on searching for human plots against him when there are other dragons plotting against him in the corporate world?

Every Die Hard movie: The Right Man In The Wrong Place At The Wrong Time.

When it comes down to it, no one ever expects the crazy guy with no shoes that throws cars at helicopters because he ran out of bullets.

[PoliteMan]

I think when it comes to Great Dragons defending themselves GM fiat is perfectly reasonable and adequate. The GD is a superhuman being intellectually far above everything we humans could even begin to comprehend, while I, as a GM, am not. Whatever a pc might throw at one of them: The dragon of course expects it and is perfectly prepared to deal with it. Great Dragons are the top of the global foodchain. They are playing chess-games with megacorps as pawns. You will never be able to outsmart one of them. And what CanRay said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

I believe Celadyr was outsmarted by humans on more than one occasion, which is why TranSys is now part of NeoNet. Besides Llofwyr, most of the greats are well below megas on the food chain.

As for killing a GD, their abilities are rather overrated IMO. Yes, they can Hand of God if the GM allows it but,
"The character should not escape unharmed from whatever circumstance would have led to her death. In fact, the character should suffermost of the consequences of the action that would have killed her; if shot in the head, for example, she may be knocked into a coma and appear dead to her enemies, but she will survive to get revenge another day."
I've yet to see anything which gives GDs an out on this. Also, most of their Edge powers are dependent on LOS.

For my money, your best bet is to program an R10 Stealth program, boost all your hacking programs as high as possible (drugs, ware, everything) hack an Aesir Sat and Thor shot the target from orbit. Ain't much a GD can do about that. No LOS so no edge powers work and Thor shots are very clear: everything within 200 meters is dead (no roll, no exception, nothing) and the fluff makes a Hand of God tough (blasted to powder). Of course, if you're up there, you might as well just empty the whole compartment: 4 Thor Missiles, 15 Freya, 24 Loki. That's enough death so even if he Hand of Gods the first, he won't survive the second, third, fourth, etc.

Making sure you've actually hit him, and not some illusion, is a different story. That's more complicated, but still doable.

As for sniping him with drones...I don't think that's doable. Not unless you have a fully armed FB Unicorn or Ares Arbalest.

[CanRay]

Ares Arbalest: When you really have to deliver that nuke from an expendable platform!

[Ascalaphus]

See, I'd disagree with putting the IEs on the same list as GDs. GDs are inherantly more powerful than any player character, IEs have simply been around long enough to get really good. Elves deal in shadow politics and social manipulation almost exclusively, with their magic there to save their tails if they get caught in direct confrontation. the trick there is to not directly confront the elves, but to maneuver them out of power through talk and cash as best you can. They're public figures, with a lot more to lose if they appear weak, or even if they simply lose influence, because that's all they've got.That aside, I seriously doubt that all Immortal Elves are combat monsters, Just because Harlequin's supposed to the biggest metahuman magical dude ever doesn't means everyone's taken Earthdawn Magic 400. YEs, they're going to be better than any individual, but they're still very mortal if you can get to them. Great Dragons screw with your Edge, know every spell in the game, dozens that aren't, breath fire, fly, and are monsters in a literal sense of the word. Oh, and they have spheres of influence in much more widespread and powerful places. I'm not going to stop Longbow from trying, but I don't think that should be his first stop when the team hits Denver next week.

It really isn't about their combat stats.. IEs and GDs are difficult targets for most of the same reasons;
* They've had millennia to get good at surviving
* They have access to far, far, far more magic than any other thing in SR except other IEs and GDs
* They have layers, layers, layers of minions and allies to supply them information, represent them towards naughty people, and do their bidding in general
* They are all smarter than anyone else and they're acutely aware of the need to protect themselves from the best the Sixth world has to offer.

Any way you can think of to kill them, they've thought of 30-3000 years ago and they've come up with a way to prevent it. It's not just that they're tough in a fight; you won't even get to fight them.

So the specific GD powers don't matter that much compared to IEs, it's the preparation and layers of insulation they both use that make it so hard to get to them.

What countermeasures are there for divination?

None.

---

These creatures are so good at staying alive. They've survived over 5000 years of people who have good reasons to kill them, who are smarter than any PC and more powerful. They are literally smarter than any GM could hope to be, since their intelligence-related Attributes are far above the human racial maximum, even with a GM with Exceptional Attribute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That makes them hard to play as a GM; the NPC would have thought of things that the GM just isn't smart enough to think of. So a GM has to resort to ways to simulate the NPC's utter brilliance. *ominous music*

* Everything the PCs come up with, the NPC has considered, even if the GM hasn't. The GM has a hall pass to use everything the players say against them. Those kinds of enemies are always perfectly prepared for your plans.
* Afterwards, the GM comes up with a way to explain that whatever the PCs did, was actually part of the plan of the NPC; that he wanted them to do those things all along, and that they were manipulated into doing them.
* If all else fails, then it turns out that whatever the PCs assassinated wasn't actually the NPC; he used a magical clone, and he's still alive in his bunker. Turns out magical clones are really useful when people want to kill you.

---

Yes, that feels like GM abuse of power. In a sense, it is. But they're supposed to be better than the PCs, and unless you as a GM are simply smarter than all of your players combined, by an infallible margin, it just takes some "cheating" to make it all work.

The lesson in this is: as a player, if you take on the GDs and IEs, don't expect them to play fair. You GM is under no obligation to give you even an un-sporting chance.

[longbowrocks]

As for sniping him with drones...I don't think that's doable. Not unless you have a fully armed FB Unicorn or Ares Arbalest.

Isn't that fluff? I saw the "nuke capable" part in the discussion part of MST, but being able to start the game with a nuke capable drone and immediately perform an availability test for a loki missile seems a bit OP.
I don't really understand the draw of the Unicorn. I'd go for an MCT hachiman.

[longbowrocks]

I am talking about the metamagic. As I understand it, it cannot be countered. And that's not even taking into account what technomunchkins can do.

Wouldn't you say that I become the subject of the spell if the dragon gets enough information from divination to identify his would-be killer? He'd need a focus in that case, and I avoid anything that provides those like the plague. Ok, that's a bit unfair. I would sleep with the plague and hang myself by my toenails on bamboo hooks to avoid giving someone a ritual focus. Unfortunately, the leftover blood on the hooks could probably be used for a ritual focus for five minutes.

In all seriousness, macho posturing aside, you're as likely to get a Great in your crosshairs as a runner as you are in the Real World to stab the President (assuming current security measures, not those of 40+ years ago).

I was actually just going to ask about that. Without derailing the thread (one or two posts should be fine) can someone tell me why it's inconceivable that a group could walk in from the edges of Washington DC and initiate concerted indirect fire on the White House form one or two streets away? I'm thinking a small mortar would be pretty effective and easy enough to conceal.
This is assuming the president is in the White House, although if that's highly unlikely for some reason, feel free to include your reasoning.

[longbowrocks]

* Everything the PCs come up with, the NPC has considered, even if the GM hasn't. The GM has a hall pass to use everything the players say against them. Those kinds of enemies are always perfectly prepared for your plans.
* Afterwards, the GM comes up with a way to explain that whatever the PCs did, was actually part of the plan of the NPC; that he wanted them to do those things all along, and that they were manipulated into doing them.
* If all else fails, then it turns out that whatever the PCs assassinated wasn't actually the NPC; he used a magical clone, and he's still alive in his bunker. Turns out magical clones are really useful when people want to kill you.

This sounds like the way the game is meant to be played (otherwise a single shadowrunner could annihilate the entire sixth world). I still hate awakened though, and would really prefer them to play fair. A better idea would be to have these characters roll logic, or a memory test, or something of that sort to see if they predicted my actions. Those huge stats aren't just there to look pretty.
Then again, the threshold should probably be immense to guess that a person you've never met or heard of is going to make an attempt on your life.

[Christian Lafay]

This sounds like the way the game is meant to be played (otherwise a single shadowrunner could annihilate the entire sixth world). I still hate awakened though, and would really prefer them to play fair. A better idea would be to have these characters roll logic, or a memory test, or something of that sort to see if they predicted my actions. Those huge stats aren't just there to look pretty.
Then again, the threshold should probably be immense to guess that a person you've never met or heard of is going to make an attempt on your life.

"You may be surprised to discover, as this is the first time that we have spoken, that I placed this plan in motion of destroying you before you were even born, to make sure you lost the chance of doing the same to me."

[Faelan]

Wouldn't you say that I become the subject of the spell if the dragon gets enough information from divination to identify his would-be killer? He'd need a focus in that case, and I avoid anything that provides those like the plague. Ok, that's a bit unfair. I would sleep with the plague and hang myself by my toenails on bamboo hooks to avoid giving someone a ritual focus. Unfortunately, the loeftover blood could probably be used for a ritual focus for five minutes.

Sigh...shakes head. The diviner in this instance is divining their own future, they don't need a thing from you. If they get enough hits, they get useful information regardless of what you do. It may not lead them directly to you, but it may put you in their sights, and once they are aware of a potential problem more and more resources will be devoted to it until it is neutralized or it has some means of perhaps Masking itself, or hiding its intent, and without magic you will have no idea how to do that.

I was actually just going to ask about that. Without derailing the thread (one or two posts should be fine) can someone tell me why it's inconceivable that a group could walk in from the edges of Washington DC and initiate concerted indirect fire on the White House form one or two streets away? I'm thinking a small mortar would be pretty effective and easy enough to conceal.
This is assuming the president is in the White House, although if that's highly unlikely for some reason, feel free to include your reasoning.

I know you don't see it on TV but if you ever go to D.C. don't be surprised by the number of black clad paramilitary looking personnel, the uniformed security, the troops, the hidden security, and lastly do you really think the White House is the same building it was, in 1940. Could you get a mortar somewhere in D.C. sure, would your 81mm rounds do anything to the building probably not, plus I would not be surprised if they have counter battery radar set up along with a disguised phalanx system or two on the grounds. None of this is anything that would be public knowledge, and none of it would be obvious, and none of it should surprise anyone if it is in fact in place.

[hermit]

Wouldn't you say that I become the subject of the spell if the dragon gets enough information from divination to identify his would-be killer?

Metamagic ability =/= spell, dude. The dragon rolls and gets his questions aboutt he future answered, the more specific the lower the TN. And you can do shit about it. No ritual focus needed. Nada. Just the general metamagical technique, and a question about the future.

Technomunchkins can do something similar and then resonancequest to the Library to research each and every bit of info ever logged into a device somewhere, no matter whether it has since been deleted or not.

I was actually just going to ask about that. Without derailing the thread (one or two posts should be fine) can someone tell me why it's inconceivable that a group could walk in from the edges of Washington DC and initiate concerted indirect fire on the White House form one or two streets away? I'm thinking a small mortar would be pretty effective and easy enough to conceal.
This is assuming the president is in the White House, although if that's highly unlikely for some reason, feel free to include your reasoning.

Because of the high number of security people screening whereever the president goes before he even gets there. Secret Service, cops, ect. Watcher spirits, real spirits using the search power, the works. Possibly, the president pays a diviner to foresee assassinations, since Colloton is smart.

Also, given that a public figure like Damien Knight has eight doubles in place, it's not likely that ou even know about the president'S whereabouts. Even if you do, though, the White House certainly is armoured and warded, maybe also has barrier spells in place.

I still hate awakened though, and would really prefer them to play fair.

Aww. The world isn't fair. Get used to it.

[Badmoodguy88]

If I were them I would through my spy network try to keep tabs on the purchase and movement of any weapons that could hurt me. Easier said than done, but you might want to buy your nifty gun (whatever you chose) a long long way out side of the country and smuggle it in.

Also I would from the start plan on attacking a large number of places all at once. He sees in his future that he is going to be bombed. He changes where he is. He sees in his future that he is going to be bombed. He changes where he is. He sees in his future that he is going to be bombed.

His changing actions change only the place of attack. You are not reacting to him knowing. You are making him knowing and irreverent detail. Limiting his options. And divining takes time. The window between when the first bomb is about to go into place is a narrow window in which time he must act. He can not sit there and divine for hours, nor would they. They have a lot of things to do.

Anyway I thought divining saw the persons intentions. Divining yourself would give you a pointless look into what you plan to do. You can't for instance divine yourself to see if you would be blown up by a door you are about to go though that you think is booby trapped.

I am not saying this is easy this is just the kind of thing I would be thinking about if I were to kill a great dragon, and I would not, but I would aim to be like them. I think about what it would take to live forever if you were not unreasonably powerful but immortal. You could not for instance live in a building that can be burnt down or toppled by an earthquake, flood, or tornado. You would not want to live anywhere near volcanic activity. You would want many dozens of bunkers, and escape tunnels under where you live. With false dead ends, false entrances, not a labyrinth because that gets people thinking and it is easy to make a map. You would want the last lie you told to look like the truth finally revealed.