Cram and Wired Reflexes 1, Combat Drugs and Cyber/Bio-ware boosting Init Pass Options

[PittsburghRPGA]

I'm not finding this in the rules, and I'm thinking I'm just missing the page, and I didn't find it searching here on dumpshock.
I'm putting together a demo game of SR, and I want one of the PCs to be a former ganger turned street sam.

As such, since it seems very "street ganger-ish", I was thinking of using the moderate addiction drawback (maybe even as part of the permanent genetic infusion drawback).

Specifically, something along the lines of Cram or Jazz.

How would that combine with wired reflexes 1? I'm seeing where wired reflexes doesn't stack with other cyber and bio ware enhancements, but I'm not seeing whether or not drugs count as one.

I.e. would Joe the Ork Ganger get +2 initiative passes and +2 reaction when his wired reflexes are on when he takes a hit of cram? Or just the +1 init pass and +1 reaction?

Note, that I'm not at all looking to break the 4 meat initiative passes rule. I just want something that feels like a street thug with delusions of competence route.

Thanks,

Eric

[UmaroVI]

They don't stack. "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."

[Ascalaphus]

Apart from spending Edge and a few Matrix things that make specific exceptions, nothing that grants additional IPs stacks with any other thing that grants additional IPs.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Pretty much what Umaro said. Oddly, drugs do stack with the Increase Reflexes spell to a max of 4 IP. More usefully, jazz and cram stack.

Edit- You can make a cocktail of jazz, cram, and kamikaze for +3 IP and a bunch of other stuff. On the other hand without a mage with detox or a good healer on hand, there's a decent chance of your face melting off and your children weeping over your exploded body as you crash.

[Ascalaphus]

I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.

But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.

[hobgoblin]

With ones back against the wall, a possible overdose vs a certain enemy is a chance worth taking. Especially if one have lived ones whole life in the barrens and see no exit.

[Hida Tsuzua]

I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.

But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.

I'm of the opinion that IP boosters shouldn't stack as a general rule but reaction boosters should. That way sammies can take betameth if you want an edge and makes reaction enhancers more useful.

As for combining drugs, Arsenal has rules for taking multiple drugs at once or speedballing. It's not too bad as it's -1 to addiction tests (Arsenal 73).

Edit- On the other hand, I think harsher houserules on crazy drug cocktails are fair. Even though I enjoy playing a gnome on betameth, I'm not too crazy about how SR4 seems to treat drugs as basically magic potions.

[PittsburghRPGA]

Hida's post made me look up the spell and adapt power to improve reflexes. The adept power says it doesn't stack with other magical or technological enhancements. Since drugs aren't either, I could make a screwed up phys adapt who is hooked on drugs. That's a thought since the one guy seems to love playing D&D monks (he even made a monk in our Mutants and Masterminds game). Permanent Genetic Infusion from RC of Endure with an addiction to Cram (or Jazz or Kamikaze), and Amensia (10) so he doesn't know where it came from. That could work.

Think I'll just make the street sam an alcoholic then. Thanks everybody!

Eric

[Yerameyahu]

I'd say drugs are technological enhancements. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, speedballing (and drug rules in general) should be harsher.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.

But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.

That's how we play too.

[HunterHerne]

Regarding stacking bonuses, I don't see anywhere that says drugs can't stack with each other, even if it's multiple doses of the same drug. Of course for most characters, it can cause problems (if they take multiple doses of drugs with horrible crash effects, like Cram), and more so if they break the guideline for doses before ODing (more doses then body), but I think it should be allowed. Even if the GM should give more addiction tests when it happens.

[hobgoblin]

I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

Imo, it is more a case that drugs are the "cheap" solution. The one the desperate and broke reach for to try and keep up with the pace of technology.

[Udoshi]

They don't stack. "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."

It IS worth pointing out that most combat drugs do raise your Reaction, which does help your Initiative, just not your Passes. (because its Int+react+modifiers).

Also, while drugs and ware doesn't stack, its possible to gain a pass just by having drugs give you more passes than your augmentation. So only the best one applies.

[CanRay]

I thought Cram only gave you +2 Rads and +5 Hit Points.

...

Oh, right, wrong game, sorry.

[LurkerOutThere]

Improved reflexes needs soem errata so badly. Never going to happen but a guy can dream right?

The way we've been running it is you need a force equal to 2x the number of ip's you'll have total, seems to cut down on "mage with 4 IP's and a sustaining focus" syndrome.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Improved reflexes needs soem errata so badly. Never going to happen but a guy can dream right?

The way we've been running it is you need a force equal to 2x the number of ip's you'll have total, seems to cut down on "mage with 4 IP's and a sustaining focus" syndrome.

But Why? There is absolutely no ambiguity with the spell at all. When the Rules are so clearcut for the spell, why did you change it?

[Yerameyahu]

It's not to clarify, it's to nerf.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's not to clarify, it's to nerf.

Ah yes... Now I get it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[LurkerOutThere]

But Why? There is absolutely no ambiguity with the spell at all. When the Rules are so clearcut for the spell, why did you change it?

As others have said, I feel the spell is way better then it should be, it makes it trivial for a mage to get 4 IP's and that shatters game balance and contributes to magicrun which i will not abide.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As others have said, I feel the spell is way better then it should be, it makes it trivial for a mage to get 4 IP's and that shatters game balance and contributes to magicrun which i will not abide.

And yet Mages are the only ones that can lose that Boost at a whim because of Background count or being counterspelled. And, the spell is obvious (Glows on the Astral).

I have never had an issue with the spell at all. But each table is different, I guess. No worries, I was just curious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Easy come, easy go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I don't see anything wrong with nudging up the cost of the holy grail of Shadowrun (more IPs).

[LurkerOutThere]

I honestly see it abused a lot in missions, seems like every mage that sits down follows the same formula, boosted reflexes and a sustaining foci. Making a higher force necessary at least puts it out of that realm or less cost effective to do so.

[Lanlaorn]

Guys, these comments are a little ridiculous. Of course every mage gets Improved Reflexes and a sustaining focus, IPs are the "you must be this fast to play Shadowrun" marker that every character has to achieve somehow if they want to be effective. It's just such a ridiculous advantage that it's truly mandatory for everyone who wants to be useful when compared to the rest of the team. Get 3 IP minimum, 4 with Restricted Gear if it's possible/doesn't break the bank. If you have nothing else, use the drugs mentioned in this very threat, but get them somehow.

Seriously the first thing I do when making a new character of any type is looking at how to increase initiative passes for this character type and putting that in there. And really, Improved Reflexes and a Sustaining Focus 3 are actually far more expensive BP wise than Wired Reflexes 2 for 3 passes, and while Restricted Gear + Spell + Focus does compare favorable to Restricted Gear + Wired Reflexes 3, as mentioned they do have many drawbacks that the cyberware doesn't have.

I don't know, I just don't see the problem here.

[phlapjack77]

I think the situation might be that not every table has the same style of play as your table. At some tables, not every character needs 3 IPs. Some tables, maybe noone needs that many.

I hope I wasn't just trolled or missed a sarcasm tag or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Lanlaorn]

I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.

I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.