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PittsburghRPGA
I'm not finding this in the rules, and I'm thinking I'm just missing the page, and I didn't find it searching here on dumpshock.
I'm putting together a demo game of SR, and I want one of the PCs to be a former ganger turned street sam.

As such, since it seems very "street ganger-ish", I was thinking of using the moderate addiction drawback (maybe even as part of the permanent genetic infusion drawback).

Specifically, something along the lines of Cram or Jazz.

How would that combine with wired reflexes 1? I'm seeing where wired reflexes doesn't stack with other cyber and bio ware enhancements, but I'm not seeing whether or not drugs count as one.

I.e. would Joe the Ork Ganger get +2 initiative passes and +2 reaction when his wired reflexes are on when he takes a hit of cram? Or just the +1 init pass and +1 reaction?

Note, that I'm not at all looking to break the 4 meat initiative passes rule. I just want something that feels like a street thug with delusions of competence route.

Thanks,

Eric
UmaroVI
They don't stack. "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."
Ascalaphus
Apart from spending Edge and a few Matrix things that make specific exceptions, nothing that grants additional IPs stacks with any other thing that grants additional IPs.
Hida Tsuzua
Pretty much what Umaro said. Oddly, drugs do stack with the Increase Reflexes spell to a max of 4 IP. More usefully, jazz and cram stack.

Edit- You can make a cocktail of jazz, cram, and kamikaze for +3 IP and a bunch of other stuff. On the other hand without a mage with detox or a good healer on hand, there's a decent chance of your face melting off and your children weeping over your exploded body as you crash.
Ascalaphus
I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.

But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.
hobgoblin
With ones back against the wall, a possible overdose vs a certain enemy is a chance worth taking. Especially if one have lived ones whole life in the barrens and see no exit.
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 14 2011, 05:26 PM) *
I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.

But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.


I'm of the opinion that IP boosters shouldn't stack as a general rule but reaction boosters should. That way sammies can take betameth if you want an edge and makes reaction enhancers more useful.

As for combining drugs, Arsenal has rules for taking multiple drugs at once or speedballing. It's not too bad as it's -1 to addiction tests (Arsenal 73).

Edit- On the other hand, I think harsher houserules on crazy drug cocktails are fair. Even though I enjoy playing a gnome on betameth, I'm not too crazy about how SR4 seems to treat drugs as basically magic potions.
PittsburghRPGA
Hida's post made me look up the spell and adapt power to improve reflexes. The adept power says it doesn't stack with other magical or technological enhancements. Since drugs aren't either, I could make a screwed up phys adapt who is hooked on drugs. That's a thought since the one guy seems to love playing D&D monks (he even made a monk in our Mutants and Masterminds game). Permanent Genetic Infusion from RC of Endure with an addiction to Cram (or Jazz or Kamikaze), and Amensia (10) so he doesn't know where it came from. That could work.

Think I'll just make the street sam an alcoholic then. Thanks everybody!

Eric
Yerameyahu
I'd say drugs are technological enhancements. smile.gif

Yes, speedballing (and drug rules in general) should be harsher.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 14 2011, 02:26 PM) *
I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

On the other hand, I'd put serious repercussions on combining 2-3 drugs. Serious chances of O.D. and such.

But it isn't really cyberpunk if people aren't doing unhealthy things to themselves.


That's how we play too.
HunterHerne
Regarding stacking bonuses, I don't see anywhere that says drugs can't stack with each other, even if it's multiple doses of the same drug. Of course for most characters, it can cause problems (if they take multiple doses of drugs with horrible crash effects, like Cram), and more so if they break the guideline for doses before ODing (more doses then body), but I think it should be allowed. Even if the GM should give more addiction tests when it happens.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 14 2011, 07:26 PM) *
I personally favor letting drugs stack with 'ware, because this is supposed to be dystopia, and implants shouldn't make drugs obsolete (want to tempt the players...)

Imo, it is more a case that drugs are the "cheap" solution. The one the desperate and broke reach for to try and keep up with the pace of technology.
Udoshi
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Jul 14 2011, 11:08 AM) *
They don't stack. "Wired reflexes cannot be combined with any other form of Initiative enhancement, except Reaction Enhancers."


It IS worth pointing out that most combat drugs do raise your Reaction, which does help your Initiative, just not your Passes. (because its Int+react+modifiers).

Also, while drugs and ware doesn't stack, its possible to gain a pass just by having drugs give you more passes than your augmentation. So only the best one applies.

CanRay
I thought Cram only gave you +2 Rads and +5 Hit Points.

...

Oh, right, wrong game, sorry.
LurkerOutThere
Improved reflexes needs soem errata so badly. Never going to happen but a guy can dream right?

The way we've been running it is you need a force equal to 2x the number of ip's you'll have total, seems to cut down on "mage with 4 IP's and a sustaining focus" syndrome.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 14 2011, 05:29 PM) *
Improved reflexes needs soem errata so badly. Never going to happen but a guy can dream right?

The way we've been running it is you need a force equal to 2x the number of ip's you'll have total, seems to cut down on "mage with 4 IP's and a sustaining focus" syndrome.



But Why? There is absolutely no ambiguity with the spell at all. When the Rules are so clearcut for the spell, why did you change it?
Yerameyahu
It's not to clarify, it's to nerf.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 14 2011, 07:52 PM) *
It's not to clarify, it's to nerf.


Ah yes... Now I get it... smile.gif
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 14 2011, 08:36 PM) *
But Why? There is absolutely no ambiguity with the spell at all. When the Rules are so clearcut for the spell, why did you change it?


As others have said, I feel the spell is way better then it should be, it makes it trivial for a mage to get 4 IP's and that shatters game balance and contributes to magicrun which i will not abide.

Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 14 2011, 08:35 PM) *
As others have said, I feel the spell is way better then it should be, it makes it trivial for a mage to get 4 IP's and that shatters game balance and contributes to magicrun which i will not abide.


And yet Mages are the only ones that can lose that Boost at a whim because of Background count or being counterspelled. And, the spell is obvious (Glows on the Astral).

I have never had an issue with the spell at all. But each table is different, I guess. No worries, I was just curious. smile.gif
Yerameyahu
Easy come, easy go. nyahnyah.gif I don't see anything wrong with nudging up the cost of the holy grail of Shadowrun (more IPs).
LurkerOutThere
I honestly see it abused a lot in missions, seems like every mage that sits down follows the same formula, boosted reflexes and a sustaining foci. Making a higher force necessary at least puts it out of that realm or less cost effective to do so.
Lanlaorn
Guys, these comments are a little ridiculous. Of course every mage gets Improved Reflexes and a sustaining focus, IPs are the "you must be this fast to play Shadowrun" marker that every character has to achieve somehow if they want to be effective. It's just such a ridiculous advantage that it's truly mandatory for everyone who wants to be useful when compared to the rest of the team. Get 3 IP minimum, 4 with Restricted Gear if it's possible/doesn't break the bank. If you have nothing else, use the drugs mentioned in this very threat, but get them somehow.

Seriously the first thing I do when making a new character of any type is looking at how to increase initiative passes for this character type and putting that in there. And really, Improved Reflexes and a Sustaining Focus 3 are actually far more expensive BP wise than Wired Reflexes 2 for 3 passes, and while Restricted Gear + Spell + Focus does compare favorable to Restricted Gear + Wired Reflexes 3, as mentioned they do have many drawbacks that the cyberware doesn't have.

I don't know, I just don't see the problem here.
phlapjack77
I think the situation might be that not every table has the same style of play as your table. At some tables, not every character needs 3 IPs. Some tables, maybe noone needs that many.

I hope I wasn't just trolled or missed a sarcasm tag or something frown.gif
Lanlaorn
I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.

I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.
phlapjack77
Ok, no worries smile.gif

I think it's really just a case of play-style, then. I've been in groups where what you describe is the norm, and groups that only a few had 2+ IPs. Both pretty fun types of games, it just depends on whether combat drives the game or other things do.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 15 2011, 01:03 AM) *
I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.

I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.


Am i suprised they follow the formula? No I am not. Do i feel that the formula is incorrrect when the mage is easily as fast as the street sammy? Yes.

All the previous editions it was, you can warp reality or you can move fast/often. Now thanks to easy peasy boost reflexes you can both warp reality and move fast and often. 1 spell pick replaces several points worth of essence isn't right with me and that's before we get into conversations about sustaining foci.
Elfenlied
Well, without Restricted Gear it's only 3 IPs, and without the reaction increase that normally accompanies IP boosters. So it's still among the worst of the IP enhancers.

But then, I've seen many posters resent the idea of magic in Shadowrun in general, so yeah.
Ascalaphus
I think the problem with the Increased Reflexes spell isn't that you can get IPs with a spell per se, but that you can get that 4th IP easier than all the other methods. All the implant versions are extremely expensive; getting it with the spell should be too.
Elfenlied
I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.

With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.
LurkerOutThere
4PP is pretty heft for most adept builds that leaves you 1 or 2 left over max. They get those 4IP's without restricted gear or the like but it's most if not all of what their going to do. Mage can do the 4IP's as an afterthought to all their other wiz bang abilities.

-2 DP is nothing and can be mitigated with spirit services, sustaining foci or just putting up with the DP.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2011, 10:41 AM) *
I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.


Huh, I hadn't noticed they'd lowered the cost in SR4A.. this is more reasonable


QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2011, 10:41 AM) *
With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.


That's what a Sustaining Focus is for.
Elfenlied
The sustaining foci available at chargen cap at F3, which is Ini+2 and 3 IP. To get the full 4 IP, you need Restricted Gear, which IMO makes it rather cost prohibitive.
LurkerOutThere
Oh darn you might have to limit yourself to 3IP's at chargen or give up 5 points. My heart bleeds for the mages.
Elfenlied
My point is that everyone (except maybe TMs) get 3 IPs for cheap out of the box, and 4 IPs with Restricted Gear.

But whatever, mages are supposed to be worse then everyone else, otherwise it's *gasps* MAGICRUNTM

Oh, please spare me all the bickering about mages...
LurkerOutThere
Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.


So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 15 2011, 01:06 PM) *
Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.


So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.


Well, the benefits are not the same. Everyone else gets +1 Reaction per point of IP enhancer, which greatly enhances survivability in fights. Also, the spell is the only IP enhancer that can be taken away from you mid-fight. A F3-4 spell is ridiculously easy to dispel.

So if you factor in the ease of detection (glowing on the astral plane), lack of reaction enhancement, and the fleeting nature of the spell itself, then yes, the costs are comparable.
suoq
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2011, 07:27 AM) *
A F3-4 spell is ridiculously easy to dispel.

By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.
Mäx
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jul 15 2011, 02:20 PM) *
Huh, I hadn't noticed they'd lowered the cost in SR4A.. this is more reasonable

And if your warriors way adept, you can get it for 3 PP or if your GM allows you to also geas it you get it for 2PP eek.gif

Suoq: By the mage(s) that the oppositon has.
Elfenlied
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 15 2011, 01:32 PM) *
By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.


By the opposition? Who happen to have mages, or rented the service of a mage, who in turn lent them a bound Guardian or Guidance spirit?

And yes, not everyone has mages. But every serious opposition will have access to magic resources. Those who don't get curbstomped by the PCs anyway, regardless of available Ini passes.
suoq
And that's why Lurker calls it magicrun. The baseline assumption is that the opposition has mages because the runners have mages and the runners have mages because the opposition has mages.

Now that the horse has been raised from the dead and beaten until it's dead again, can we get on with the drug abuse?
Elfenlied
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 15 2011, 01:45 PM) *
And that's why Lurker calls it magicrun. The baseline assumption is that the opposition has mages because the runners have mages and the runners have mages because the opposition has mages.


And why exactly is that bad? Magic is part of the game, deal with it. If you want to play pure Cyberpunk with SR rules, then don't call it SR. Call it Cyberrun! *sarcasm*

QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 15 2011, 01:45 PM) *
Now that the horse has been raised from the dead and beaten until it's dead again, can we get on with the drug abuse?


At the risk of violating that horse's corpse: What do people here think about the magic drugs? Stuff like Lil' Smoke, Eternal Flower or Rock lizard blood?
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2011, 07:36 AM) *
By the opposition? Who happen to have mages, or rented the service of a mage, who in turn lent them a bound Guardian or Guidance spirit?

And yes, not everyone has mages. But every serious opposition will have access to magic resources. Those who don't get curbstomped by the PCs anyway, regardless of available Ini passes.


So wait your argument that increase reflexes is balanced is that the opposition that might use their action to fireball you might instead use it to dispel your increased reflexes?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 15 2011, 12:03 AM) *
I assure you I'm not trolling you, I've genuinely never seen someone below 3 IPs out of chargen. Even something like a hacker/technomancer/rigger forced to work with their meat is using Jazz + Cram. The opposition does it too of course, IIRC even the description of Jazz in the book says it was developed so cops could inhale some and stand a chance against a Street Sam.

I just can't imagine people not going for more initiative passes or being surprised that every mage "follows the same formula", it's their only way to do it, the cyberware costs too much essence.


The vast majority of characters, at our table, come out of Character Generation with only 2 IP's. The Occasional 3 IP's is not unheard of, and I have only seen 1 Character in play that started with 4 IP. Even the mages with Increased Reflexes usually only go for the Sustaining Focus at Force 3 (so 3 IP). Hell, there are some Mages that don't even start with the Spell, ort choose to not have the sustaining focus...

Not that IP's have not increased in play, of course, but it is apparently not as common as at other tables. *shrug*

smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2011, 02:41 AM) *
I personally believe Adepts get it the easiest way. 4 PP, and you're set.

With the spell, you take a -2 penalty on DPs, which IMO is a hefty tax.


As an Adept, you can get those 4 IP's for the whopping cost of only 2 PP, if you desire. Not all that hard to get, actually. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2011, 04:28 AM) *
The sustaining foci available at chargen cap at F3, which is Ini+2 and 3 IP. To get the full 4 IP, you need Restricted Gear, which IMO makes it rather cost prohibitive.


Of course, you could always spend edge to remove the cap on Hits, at which point, the F3 Focus works just fine. smile.gif
Elfenlied
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 15 2011, 02:07 PM) *
So wait your argument that increase reflexes is balanced is that the opposition that might use their action to fireball you might instead use it to dispel your increased reflexes?


They're not going to use fireball. Not with the inane changes to Counterspelling vs Indirect Combat spells. It's not just counterspelling; Wards and BC seriously hamper the spell too. Also, even (certain) spirits can counterspell too.

My point is that Increase Reflexes is balanced to other common IP boosters by being obvious, not providing reaction boni, and counterable in combat.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 15 2011, 05:06 AM) *
Oh see now there is a place you are wrong and are now all offended, a sam getting 4 IP's uses up a sizable portion of their essence, a adept uses up a sizable portion of their power points. A magic uses....one spell slot out of how many possible? It takes a shocking level of self deception to pretend the costs are roughly equitable.


So yes it is an example of magic being flat out better at something then everyone, to state otherwise in the face of the evidence speaks to a shocking level of double think.


And yet the Street Sam can get 4 IP's for the Low Low Essence Cost of 1.5 Essence, Standard. Yes, it is 240,000 Nuyen, but so what. It is not that hard. Yes, I know, that is 53 BP, as compared to the Mages Minimum Required 37 BP for only 3 IP (A Magic of at least 2 (10 BP), the Magician Quality (15 BP), The cost of the Focus (6 BP), the Bonding Cost of the Focus (3), and the cost of the actual Spell (3); so a final cost of 37BP). But that is often irrelevant.

And as I mentioned Earlier, an Adept can get 3 or 4 IP for 2 PP (or slightly less) (5 BP for Adept, 10 BP for +1 to Magic and another 10 for the Quality to do so, for a total cost of 25 BP)...

In the end, it costs the same or less BP for the Non-Awakened Street Samurai to have 4 IP (and significantly Less for just 3 IP, only 7 BP) through Cyberware, than any of the Awakened Characters, Wired 3 is 100,000 Nuyen (20 BP) and the Restricted gear Quality is only 5 BP. Total Cost: 25 BP for the Wired (or 53 for the Synaptic Accelerator 3 w/Restricted Gear).

And a Juicer Sam can get 3 IP for less than 1 BP, and can continue to pay out for that ability for quite a while before that 1 BP is exhausted.

Not exactly sure what you are arguing here LurkerOutThere. The Awakened generally pay more for the ability to go fast than any other character.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 15 2011, 05:32 AM) *
By whom? None of the other types have counterspelling.


By the Mage in your team. he does do counterspelling, right?
Or maybe one of his Spirits, there are spirits that are capable of such as well.
Or maybe he just entered a Background Count. Whoops, there goes at least one IP, possibly more.
Yerameyahu
… And those are why it's so trivially easy to *get* 4IP in the first place, especially using that godawful F1 sustaining + Edge trick. We're just lucky there are a *couple* of minor tradeoffs, instead of none. And, of course, the mages can always get Synaptics later.
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