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> Expanded Day Job Options
Gerzel
post Jul 17 2011, 12:25 AM
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Here is just a house rule that I'm wondering if anyone uses anything similar for.

For Day Job you have two things to consider, the time the job takes up and the amount the job pays.

For a proper Shadowrunner we only go up to a max of 40 hrs/week. Legal Jobs require a SIN to perform, at least to be legal (unreported income at the very least is also a crime even if no other laws are being broken). Illegal jobs have the advantage of not requiring a SIN. Thus while we require a PC to specify if the income and work is from a legal or illegal activity the cost is unchanged either way.

Salary/Month pay is like this:
1,000 costs 5 bp
2,500 costs 10 bp
5,000 costs 15 bp
7,500 costs 20 bp
10,000 costs 25 bp
12,500 costs 30 bp
+2,500 costs +5 bp

Work hours are as follows:
10 hrs/wk is worth -10 bp.
20 hrs/wk is worth -20 bp.
40 hrs/wk is worth -30 bp.

Options
Flexible Hours costs 5 bp. The employer is flexible from week to week how many hours are worked and will allow for extended "off" or "vacation" time as long as the PC makes up the time in the coming month. Generally as long as the hours for one month are put in the employer is happy.

Boss From Hell is worth -5 bp. The employer or job is overly demanding and/or combative with the character sucking more than just their time from them. This is meant to give the GM more leeway in adding complications to the PCs life from their job. The PC is encouraged to describe the exact nature the Boss From Hell takes.

Thus a player can take a Day Job that pays better as a positive quality (perhaps a successful rockstar working 20 hrs/week including practice and stage time and making 10,000 or more a month off of it. Also this could be used to represent income a PC gets from using their skills, such as a Hacker earning money by programming on the side.

Total Cost
Just take the sum of the Work Hours and Salary/Month adding in any options to determine the total cost of the Job Quality. PCs may take multiple Job Qualities but may not take more than 40 hours/week in total(multiple jobs might represent a mix of legal income connected to a SIN and illegal income). If the total cost is positive or zero then the quality is a positive quality, if it is negative then it is a negative quality.

Quitting & Getting Fired
If a player quits or is fired from a job then they simply lose the income if it was a positive or net 0 quality. The GM may allow the PC to get the job back through role-playing, reduce the karma cost of a new job the character takes or give the character a good quality of lesser value at the GM's sole discretion dependent on the circumstances of the job loss. If you quit a good job the GM is not required or obligated in anyway to replace or refund the points it was worth. If the quality was negative the character gains a new negative quality determined by the GM of the same point value unless the PC pays off the cost of the negative quality with karma.

By our (well my as I'm the GM) rules both the hours and the pay are added together and the result is treated as a single quality. This can also be used to help represent what

***Edit***
I changed the Salary/Month table so the entire table increments at a flat 2,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) per month. This scale seems to fit the rules better.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 17 2011, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 16 2011, 05:25 PM) *
Here is just a house rule that I'm wondering if anyone uses anything similar for.

For Day Job you have two things to consider, the time the job takes up and the amount the job pays.

For a proper Shadowrunner we only go up to a max of 40 hrs/week. Legal Jobs require a SIN to perform, at least to be legal (unreported income at the very least is also a crime even if no other laws are being broken). Illegal jobs have the advantage of not requiring a SIN. Thus while we require a PC to specify if the income and work is from a legal or illegal activity the cost is unchanged either way.

... SNIP ...

By our (well my as I'm the GM) rules both the hours and the pay are added together and the result is treated as a single quality. This can also be used to help represent what



Interesting, I like that. Thanks for the idea... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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HunterHerne
post Jul 17 2011, 02:06 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 16 2011, 10:51 PM) *
Interesting, I like that. Thanks for the idea... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Certainly makes it more interesting
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SpellBinder
post Jul 17 2011, 07:12 AM
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Been working on an NPC that does freelance work, though the current "Day Job" income bit certainly felt... off in trying to figure the required hours of work vs. payment as someone who's an "expert in the field" could in theory bring home really bug bucks and only have to put in 20 hours a week. Certainly didn't like having to take the Fame quality just to give her a higher monthly income, which can mesh in nicely with your layout as that one stands.

I like. I too thank you very much for this idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Udoshi
post Jul 17 2011, 07:21 AM
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I like this. I might suggest a Tips rule, in which people who happen to work in positions where their income is partially dependent on a patrons generousity (from waiting to stripping), that a charisma test be allowed to increase their pay

Basically, similiar to how you can negotiate for a better deal with a contact. It might make better sense as an Opposed test, with the gm making up a number to roll for the customers.

Also, may want to allow biweekly payouts, since most businesses these days don't pay you all in one lump.
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SpellBinder
post Jul 17 2011, 07:26 AM
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Forgot about that. Could also go for weekly payouts as well as there are several business that don't pay on a biweekly basis.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 17 2011, 02:20 PM
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As a Person who works for a Payroll Company, I see Many Companies that pay out on a Monthly basis, as opposed to Bi-Weekly or Semi Monthly.
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Gerzel
post Jul 17 2011, 06:00 PM
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The idea is more to add options to represent other forms of income, without having to do as much ooc bookkeeping(skill rolls and such).

One thing I think I forgot to mention is that the player does have to come up with what the job is, what the PC needs to do for it, and if necessarily have any relevant skills or stats.
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LostProxy
post Jul 17 2011, 06:23 PM
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Finally my circus Bear shifter can get paid for what he loves (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Neko Asakami
post Jul 17 2011, 08:25 PM
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I love the idea, but I think it's too easy to break the system. If you take the -30 BP option for 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /month and couple that with the +30 40 hr/wk option, I'm suddenly making 240,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a year for no BP cost. According to the same rules, I can make 300,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a year for 5 BP. At that point, why would I bother running? I'd be more like Batman than a shadowrunner: able to afford all the latest gadgets or steal them directly from my company labs, bribe the police to ensure I'm never arrested, have a custom made car for running, and a computer system that can monitor the location of everyone everywhere at once. Heck, even taking a 10 hr/week job that pays 2,500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /month is still a free 30,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a year.

Personally, I'd add the caveat that anyone taking it as a positive quality, making more than 5,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /month, or taking the 40 hr/wk option better be a SINner or have at least some other defects like Wanted to make up for it. Even under those restrictions, I could be making 60k a year for a -5BP defect (5k/month@20hours/wk), but I think that's about the limit for someone who's not a legit citizen and still wants to run the shadows. A person in the underbelly of society making 120,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) or more a year is likely to be a drug dealer with several distributors under his belt, a professional arms dealer with an international operation, or some other sort of person who is going to have a HUGE price on their head. They're going to have the police, rival syndicates, people who want his place in the organization, and professional rivals all gunning for him. That's not to say anything about the beat cops, customs agents, other local criminals, etc. who want their cut of his action (bribes, kickbacks, whathaveyou). You would need to start attaching other drawbacks to the job just due to the realities of the situation they're in and the job will end up being a lot more of a drawback in game than the points it's worth. At that point, it ceases to be background fluff (which is IMO mostly what Day Job is meant to be) and becomes the focus of the character and (quite possibly) the campaign. You should have your players be prepared to craft a character to reflect those additional drawbacks with actual Negative Qualities (Wanted and Enemy: Interpol, for example, as an arms dealer) at the very least.

Just tossing in my opinion as a GM for a bunch of power gamers. On the other hand, if your group is responsable with it, then go for it. ^_^

Edit: All said, I might try something very similar for a future campaign. It's a good idea, but could be broken if used irresponsably.
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DMiller
post Jul 17 2011, 09:42 PM
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I like it too, and will suggest it to my group for future games. I would make one change however. I would add a limiter on how much money the character can make per month based on the skill(s) being used. Perhaps something like below:
Salary/Month pay is like this:
1,000 costs 5 bp (no skill required)
2,500 costs 10 bp (skill rank 1 minimum)
5,000 costs 15 bp (skill rank 2 minimum)
10,000 costs 20 bp (skill rank 3 minimum)
15,000 costs 25 bp (skill rank 4 minimum)
20,000 costs 30 bp (skill rank 5 minimum)
+5000 costs +5 bp (skill rank 6+)

This could limit the power-gaming a little. I would also limit the income to one-step lower for illegal jobs, for example an ilegal job paying 10,000 would require a skill of 4 and cost 25 BP, where a legal job (requiring a SIN) would cost 20 BP for the same job. I would also allow the Day Job to be associated to a fake SIN. For the fake SIN I would use the skill minimum as the rating of the fake required. So you could have the legal job earning 20,000 as long as you have a fake SIN (5) and spend your 30 BP, or you can have that same job illegally for 35BP and a skill 6 without a SIN.

It's early, I hope that makes sense. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

-D

*Edit*: And I wouldn't allow increasing the skill after game start to increase the pay.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jul 17 2011, 09:49 PM
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I usually am not a fan of day job though I did take it once. But I didn't get money for the flaw, it was more of a trade issue. The character was an out of work teacher who taught the local street kids in exchange for protection from the local gang. I mean it effectively was money, just more of a savings on lifestyle money instead of cash to spend. So I'd think of an option where the pay isn't pay but a discount on low and or medium lifestyles. I like what you did here though with it being a possible positive quality, it seems less abusive.
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HunterHerne
post Jul 17 2011, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jul 17 2011, 05:49 PM) *
I usually am not a fan of day job though I did take it once. But I didn't get money for the flaw, it was more of a trade issue. The character was an out of work teacher who taught the local street kids in exchange for protection from the local gang. I mean it effectively was money, just more of a savings on lifestyle money instead of cash to spend. So I'd think of an option where the pay isn't pay but a discount on low and or medium lifestyles.


The way I look at Day job, is it how I'm paying my rent and necessities each month, and whatever I make running is the gravy I'm saving up for the things I want to do/improve.

Honestly, I disagree with Day Job being a negative quality. I can barely think of a time when it could matter that you can't help with a run prep, or downtime work.
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Gerzel
post Jul 17 2011, 11:28 PM
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At 40 hrs/week it would matter if the GM were keeping up with it.

A normal job would take out nearly all daytime business hours for any prep.

Also the GM should ask when the PC is sleeping with at least 10hrs to sleep time(include bathing, travel to sleep location etc.) a day. That leaves 6 hours max of run time and the PC on the knife's edge of maintaining themselves.

Beyond that the PC should start taking some penalties. Minor at first but rising steadily.
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HunterHerne
post Jul 17 2011, 11:39 PM
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QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 17 2011, 07:28 PM) *
At 40 hrs/week it would matter if the GM were keeping up with it.

A normal job would take out nearly all daytime business hours for any prep.

Also the GM should ask when the PC is sleeping with at least 10hrs to sleep time(include bathing, travel to sleep location etc.) a day. That leaves 6 hours max of run time and the PC on the knife's edge of maintaining themselves.

Beyond that the PC should start taking some penalties. Minor at first but rising steadily.


I agree. But it also depends on the job. I work roughly 32-40 hours a week, sometimes as early as 3 am, and sometimes until as late as 11 pm (not all in one day, on different shifts). But, that would have it's own penalties for the screwed up sleep schedule anyway...
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Aku
post Jul 17 2011, 11:40 PM
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I also think that unless you're working at a bank, there should at least be a chance where your boss calls you RIGHT before a run, asking you to come in to cover for someone else.
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HunterHerne
post Jul 17 2011, 11:43 PM
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QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 17 2011, 07:40 PM) *
I also think that unless you're working at a bank, there should at least be a chance where your boss calls you RIGHT before a run, asking you to come in to cover for someone else.


Haha. That is very true. I know I've had plans ruined because the extra hours were tempting...

And in a Dystopia, it would be easier for them to replace you if you turned them down too often.
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CanRay
post Jul 17 2011, 11:50 PM
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"Too often" being the first time. There's fifty people waiting for you job, man.

I lived in a city where that was almost literal. The crappy call centre that was constantly hiring? Yeah, six month waiting period before they would even look at your resume.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2011, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 18 2011, 02:28 AM) *
Also the GM should ask when the PC is sleeping with at least 10hrs to sleep time(include bathing, travel to sleep location etc.) a day. That leaves 6 hours max of run time and the PC on the knife's edge of maintaining themselves.

Sleep Regulator should be pretty much standard equipment for all runner with a Day Job(Unless she's an adept with Sustenance), with it you only need to sleep 3h per day, leaving plenty of time for runner activities, even if you have to work for 8h per day.
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DMiller
post Jul 18 2011, 03:50 AM
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QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 18 2011, 12:47 PM) *
Sleep Regulator should be pretty much standard equipment for all runner with a Day Job(Unless she's an adept with Sustenance), with it you only need to sleep 3h per day, leaving plenty of time for runner activities, even if you have to work for 8H per day.


Agreed. And Sustenance is even better with only 1 meal and 1 bathroom break per day.

-D
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CanRay
post Jul 18 2011, 03:56 AM
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Sleep Regulator is so useful for ANY 'Runner. Especially media junkies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2011, 03:56 AM
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QUOTE (DMiller @ Jul 18 2011, 06:50 AM) *
Agreed. And Sustenance is even better with only 1 meal and 1 bathroom break per day.

-D

Yeap, there's a reason that all my adept builds have it.
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Cain
post Jul 18 2011, 11:43 AM
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I don't like Day Job to begin with, for many reasons. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

First of all, the payouts are too high. You can get 30,000 a month for no net BP cost? Sign me up. Even if you call it an edge at this point, you still can take 35 more points worth of them to fill out your character. It turns into free money at this point.

Second, downtime isn't as big a deal as you might think. It only really applies to building things and natural healing. If your character isn't building anything, and has access to magical healing, it won't be a serious limitation. Besides which, the character could always plead the case to his boss that he needs sick leave if he's really hurt badly.

Third, if you actually make the job cut into shadowrunning time, you're now punishing the player in the worst way: he has to sit out of the game, while his character goes to work. You can't do anything to help them have a fun game, they're too busy grinding.

In all my years playing Shadowrun, I've only allowed Day Job once, and that was a very special circumstance. In that group, we rotated GMs on a regular basis. As a rule, we could not involve our own characters in a session we were running, to prevent GMPC issues. One of the players took Day Job, to explain why his character couldn't come on runs when he was the GM. I didn't let him take cash for it, but I allowed it as a valid flaw, since his character would be out of the picture for major sections of the game.
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Mäx
post Jul 18 2011, 12:00 PM
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QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 17 2011, 11:25 PM) *
I love the idea, but I think it's too easy to break the system. If you take the -30 BP option for 20,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) /month and couple that with the +30 40 hr/wk option, I'm suddenly making 240,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a year for no BP cost. According to the same rules, I can make 300,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a year for 5 BP. At that point, why would I bother running? I'd be more like Batman than a shadowrunner

Except instead of being a billionaire you only make 300k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) a year of witch living only a high lifestyle eats away 120k and instead of spending you time hobnobbing with the rich and famous you have to work 40h per week (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Gerzel
post Jul 18 2011, 12:39 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 18 2011, 06:43 AM) *
I don't like Day Job to begin with, for many reasons. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

First of all, the payouts are too high. You can get 30,000 a month for no net BP cost? Sign me up. Even if you call it an edge at this point, you still can take 35 more points worth of them to fill out your character. It turns into free money at this point.

Second, downtime isn't as big a deal as you might think. It only really applies to building things and natural healing. If your character isn't building anything, and has access to magical healing, it won't be a serious limitation. Besides which, the character could always plead the case to his boss that he needs sick leave if he's really hurt badly.


I agree that the payouts are a bit high, at least on the higher ends of the scale. I probably would shift the increment down to 2.5k somewhere in the future. The idea of the rules as written is to make them fit in with the original quality.

For downtime I don't say that the PC doesn't go on the run. Instead, I would put in a fatigue penalty on their rolls as their PC is being over worked and it is showing in their performance. The other side is to lower the PC's pay or put the job in jeopardy. Often a bit of roleplaying will do the trick on either the player or GMs part.

Though one thing is that the GM should always look over and approve of qualities. Negative qualities, be they true negative qualities or downsides of positives) have to be played to affect the PC. If the GM never brings in an Enemy, or doesn't make sure that the PC plays out some mental quality it is exactly as if the PC gets those points for free. The thing is that the real impact of qualities will vary depending on the GM, Player, and game the GM is running.

The thing about a particular rule, quality, or anything in this game being broken to remember is. This is not World of Warcraft or any computer MMO where if a rule is broken everyone can take advantage to their heart's content making play impossible for others. The GM IS the system. If a rule breaks the system then the GM is broken, or rather not doing their job. It might not be easy but the GM has to watch out for builds that are being abused and check players when it happens so that the everyone in the group has a good time. The exact same build can be fine with one player/GM combination and broken with another.

Finally the argument of "This PC is making X thousands a month why are they shadowrunning?" I shall give my standard answer to. "This PC has XYZ bp spent in skills, and abilities that are well beyond the human norm and could almost certainly get employment elsewhere, why is nearly ANY shadowrunner running? Unless we want to start requiring criminal SINs and unstable mental qualities that make every PC unsuitable for normal employment you could ask the question of why they are running for most PCs. This is doubly true for the awakened.
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