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Gerzel
Here is just a house rule that I'm wondering if anyone uses anything similar for.

For Day Job you have two things to consider, the time the job takes up and the amount the job pays.

For a proper Shadowrunner we only go up to a max of 40 hrs/week. Legal Jobs require a SIN to perform, at least to be legal (unreported income at the very least is also a crime even if no other laws are being broken). Illegal jobs have the advantage of not requiring a SIN. Thus while we require a PC to specify if the income and work is from a legal or illegal activity the cost is unchanged either way.

Salary/Month pay is like this:
1,000 costs 5 bp
2,500 costs 10 bp
5,000 costs 15 bp
7,500 costs 20 bp
10,000 costs 25 bp
12,500 costs 30 bp
+2,500 costs +5 bp

Work hours are as follows:
10 hrs/wk is worth -10 bp.
20 hrs/wk is worth -20 bp.
40 hrs/wk is worth -30 bp.

Options
Flexible Hours costs 5 bp. The employer is flexible from week to week how many hours are worked and will allow for extended "off" or "vacation" time as long as the PC makes up the time in the coming month. Generally as long as the hours for one month are put in the employer is happy.

Boss From Hell is worth -5 bp. The employer or job is overly demanding and/or combative with the character sucking more than just their time from them. This is meant to give the GM more leeway in adding complications to the PCs life from their job. The PC is encouraged to describe the exact nature the Boss From Hell takes.

Thus a player can take a Day Job that pays better as a positive quality (perhaps a successful rockstar working 20 hrs/week including practice and stage time and making 10,000 or more a month off of it. Also this could be used to represent income a PC gets from using their skills, such as a Hacker earning money by programming on the side.

Total Cost
Just take the sum of the Work Hours and Salary/Month adding in any options to determine the total cost of the Job Quality. PCs may take multiple Job Qualities but may not take more than 40 hours/week in total(multiple jobs might represent a mix of legal income connected to a SIN and illegal income). If the total cost is positive or zero then the quality is a positive quality, if it is negative then it is a negative quality.

Quitting & Getting Fired
If a player quits or is fired from a job then they simply lose the income if it was a positive or net 0 quality. The GM may allow the PC to get the job back through role-playing, reduce the karma cost of a new job the character takes or give the character a good quality of lesser value at the GM's sole discretion dependent on the circumstances of the job loss. If you quit a good job the GM is not required or obligated in anyway to replace or refund the points it was worth. If the quality was negative the character gains a new negative quality determined by the GM of the same point value unless the PC pays off the cost of the negative quality with karma.

By our (well my as I'm the GM) rules both the hours and the pay are added together and the result is treated as a single quality. This can also be used to help represent what

***Edit***
I changed the Salary/Month table so the entire table increments at a flat 2,500 nuyen.gif per month. This scale seems to fit the rules better.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 16 2011, 05:25 PM) *
Here is just a house rule that I'm wondering if anyone uses anything similar for.

For Day Job you have two things to consider, the time the job takes up and the amount the job pays.

For a proper Shadowrunner we only go up to a max of 40 hrs/week. Legal Jobs require a SIN to perform, at least to be legal (unreported income at the very least is also a crime even if no other laws are being broken). Illegal jobs have the advantage of not requiring a SIN. Thus while we require a PC to specify if the income and work is from a legal or illegal activity the cost is unchanged either way.

... SNIP ...

By our (well my as I'm the GM) rules both the hours and the pay are added together and the result is treated as a single quality. This can also be used to help represent what



Interesting, I like that. Thanks for the idea... smile.gif
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 16 2011, 10:51 PM) *
Interesting, I like that. Thanks for the idea... smile.gif


Certainly makes it more interesting
SpellBinder
Been working on an NPC that does freelance work, though the current "Day Job" income bit certainly felt... off in trying to figure the required hours of work vs. payment as someone who's an "expert in the field" could in theory bring home really bug bucks and only have to put in 20 hours a week. Certainly didn't like having to take the Fame quality just to give her a higher monthly income, which can mesh in nicely with your layout as that one stands.

I like. I too thank you very much for this idea. smile.gif
Udoshi
I like this. I might suggest a Tips rule, in which people who happen to work in positions where their income is partially dependent on a patrons generousity (from waiting to stripping), that a charisma test be allowed to increase their pay

Basically, similiar to how you can negotiate for a better deal with a contact. It might make better sense as an Opposed test, with the gm making up a number to roll for the customers.

Also, may want to allow biweekly payouts, since most businesses these days don't pay you all in one lump.
SpellBinder
Forgot about that. Could also go for weekly payouts as well as there are several business that don't pay on a biweekly basis.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
As a Person who works for a Payroll Company, I see Many Companies that pay out on a Monthly basis, as opposed to Bi-Weekly or Semi Monthly.
Gerzel
The idea is more to add options to represent other forms of income, without having to do as much ooc bookkeeping(skill rolls and such).

One thing I think I forgot to mention is that the player does have to come up with what the job is, what the PC needs to do for it, and if necessarily have any relevant skills or stats.
LostProxy
Finally my circus Bear shifter can get paid for what he loves biggrin.gif
Neko Asakami
I love the idea, but I think it's too easy to break the system. If you take the -30 BP option for 20,000 nuyen.gif/month and couple that with the +30 40 hr/wk option, I'm suddenly making 240,000 nuyen.gif a year for no BP cost. According to the same rules, I can make 300,000 nuyen.gif a year for 5 BP. At that point, why would I bother running? I'd be more like Batman than a shadowrunner: able to afford all the latest gadgets or steal them directly from my company labs, bribe the police to ensure I'm never arrested, have a custom made car for running, and a computer system that can monitor the location of everyone everywhere at once. Heck, even taking a 10 hr/week job that pays 2,500 nuyen.gif/month is still a free 30,000 nuyen.gif a year.

Personally, I'd add the caveat that anyone taking it as a positive quality, making more than 5,000 nuyen.gif/month, or taking the 40 hr/wk option better be a SINner or have at least some other defects like Wanted to make up for it. Even under those restrictions, I could be making 60k a year for a -5BP defect (5k/month@20hours/wk), but I think that's about the limit for someone who's not a legit citizen and still wants to run the shadows. A person in the underbelly of society making 120,000 nuyen.gif or more a year is likely to be a drug dealer with several distributors under his belt, a professional arms dealer with an international operation, or some other sort of person who is going to have a HUGE price on their head. They're going to have the police, rival syndicates, people who want his place in the organization, and professional rivals all gunning for him. That's not to say anything about the beat cops, customs agents, other local criminals, etc. who want their cut of his action (bribes, kickbacks, whathaveyou). You would need to start attaching other drawbacks to the job just due to the realities of the situation they're in and the job will end up being a lot more of a drawback in game than the points it's worth. At that point, it ceases to be background fluff (which is IMO mostly what Day Job is meant to be) and becomes the focus of the character and (quite possibly) the campaign. You should have your players be prepared to craft a character to reflect those additional drawbacks with actual Negative Qualities (Wanted and Enemy: Interpol, for example, as an arms dealer) at the very least.

Just tossing in my opinion as a GM for a bunch of power gamers. On the other hand, if your group is responsable with it, then go for it. ^_^

Edit: All said, I might try something very similar for a future campaign. It's a good idea, but could be broken if used irresponsably.
DMiller
I like it too, and will suggest it to my group for future games. I would make one change however. I would add a limiter on how much money the character can make per month based on the skill(s) being used. Perhaps something like below:
Salary/Month pay is like this:
1,000 costs 5 bp (no skill required)
2,500 costs 10 bp (skill rank 1 minimum)
5,000 costs 15 bp (skill rank 2 minimum)
10,000 costs 20 bp (skill rank 3 minimum)
15,000 costs 25 bp (skill rank 4 minimum)
20,000 costs 30 bp (skill rank 5 minimum)
+5000 costs +5 bp (skill rank 6+)

This could limit the power-gaming a little. I would also limit the income to one-step lower for illegal jobs, for example an ilegal job paying 10,000 would require a skill of 4 and cost 25 BP, where a legal job (requiring a SIN) would cost 20 BP for the same job. I would also allow the Day Job to be associated to a fake SIN. For the fake SIN I would use the skill minimum as the rating of the fake required. So you could have the legal job earning 20,000 as long as you have a fake SIN (5) and spend your 30 BP, or you can have that same job illegally for 35BP and a skill 6 without a SIN.

It's early, I hope that makes sense. smile.gif

-D

*Edit*: And I wouldn't allow increasing the skill after game start to increase the pay.
Shinobi Killfist
I usually am not a fan of day job though I did take it once. But I didn't get money for the flaw, it was more of a trade issue. The character was an out of work teacher who taught the local street kids in exchange for protection from the local gang. I mean it effectively was money, just more of a savings on lifestyle money instead of cash to spend. So I'd think of an option where the pay isn't pay but a discount on low and or medium lifestyles. I like what you did here though with it being a possible positive quality, it seems less abusive.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jul 17 2011, 05:49 PM) *
I usually am not a fan of day job though I did take it once. But I didn't get money for the flaw, it was more of a trade issue. The character was an out of work teacher who taught the local street kids in exchange for protection from the local gang. I mean it effectively was money, just more of a savings on lifestyle money instead of cash to spend. So I'd think of an option where the pay isn't pay but a discount on low and or medium lifestyles.


The way I look at Day job, is it how I'm paying my rent and necessities each month, and whatever I make running is the gravy I'm saving up for the things I want to do/improve.

Honestly, I disagree with Day Job being a negative quality. I can barely think of a time when it could matter that you can't help with a run prep, or downtime work.
Gerzel
At 40 hrs/week it would matter if the GM were keeping up with it.

A normal job would take out nearly all daytime business hours for any prep.

Also the GM should ask when the PC is sleeping with at least 10hrs to sleep time(include bathing, travel to sleep location etc.) a day. That leaves 6 hours max of run time and the PC on the knife's edge of maintaining themselves.

Beyond that the PC should start taking some penalties. Minor at first but rising steadily.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 17 2011, 07:28 PM) *
At 40 hrs/week it would matter if the GM were keeping up with it.

A normal job would take out nearly all daytime business hours for any prep.

Also the GM should ask when the PC is sleeping with at least 10hrs to sleep time(include bathing, travel to sleep location etc.) a day. That leaves 6 hours max of run time and the PC on the knife's edge of maintaining themselves.

Beyond that the PC should start taking some penalties. Minor at first but rising steadily.


I agree. But it also depends on the job. I work roughly 32-40 hours a week, sometimes as early as 3 am, and sometimes until as late as 11 pm (not all in one day, on different shifts). But, that would have it's own penalties for the screwed up sleep schedule anyway...
Aku
I also think that unless you're working at a bank, there should at least be a chance where your boss calls you RIGHT before a run, asking you to come in to cover for someone else.
HunterHerne
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 17 2011, 07:40 PM) *
I also think that unless you're working at a bank, there should at least be a chance where your boss calls you RIGHT before a run, asking you to come in to cover for someone else.


Haha. That is very true. I know I've had plans ruined because the extra hours were tempting...

And in a Dystopia, it would be easier for them to replace you if you turned them down too often.
CanRay
"Too often" being the first time. There's fifty people waiting for you job, man.

I lived in a city where that was almost literal. The crappy call centre that was constantly hiring? Yeah, six month waiting period before they would even look at your resume.
Mäx
QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 18 2011, 02:28 AM) *
Also the GM should ask when the PC is sleeping with at least 10hrs to sleep time(include bathing, travel to sleep location etc.) a day. That leaves 6 hours max of run time and the PC on the knife's edge of maintaining themselves.

Sleep Regulator should be pretty much standard equipment for all runner with a Day Job(Unless she's an adept with Sustenance), with it you only need to sleep 3h per day, leaving plenty of time for runner activities, even if you have to work for 8h per day.
DMiller
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jul 18 2011, 12:47 PM) *
Sleep Regulator should be pretty much standard equipment for all runner with a Day Job(Unless she's an adept with Sustenance), with it you only need to sleep 3h per day, leaving plenty of time for runner activities, even if you have to work for 8H per day.


Agreed. And Sustenance is even better with only 1 meal and 1 bathroom break per day.

-D
CanRay
Sleep Regulator is so useful for ANY 'Runner. Especially media junkies. wink.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (DMiller @ Jul 18 2011, 06:50 AM) *
Agreed. And Sustenance is even better with only 1 meal and 1 bathroom break per day.

-D

Yeap, there's a reason that all my adept builds have it.
Cain
I don't like Day Job to begin with, for many reasons. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

First of all, the payouts are too high. You can get 30,000 a month for no net BP cost? Sign me up. Even if you call it an edge at this point, you still can take 35 more points worth of them to fill out your character. It turns into free money at this point.

Second, downtime isn't as big a deal as you might think. It only really applies to building things and natural healing. If your character isn't building anything, and has access to magical healing, it won't be a serious limitation. Besides which, the character could always plead the case to his boss that he needs sick leave if he's really hurt badly.

Third, if you actually make the job cut into shadowrunning time, you're now punishing the player in the worst way: he has to sit out of the game, while his character goes to work. You can't do anything to help them have a fun game, they're too busy grinding.

In all my years playing Shadowrun, I've only allowed Day Job once, and that was a very special circumstance. In that group, we rotated GMs on a regular basis. As a rule, we could not involve our own characters in a session we were running, to prevent GMPC issues. One of the players took Day Job, to explain why his character couldn't come on runs when he was the GM. I didn't let him take cash for it, but I allowed it as a valid flaw, since his character would be out of the picture for major sections of the game.
Mäx
QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 17 2011, 11:25 PM) *
I love the idea, but I think it's too easy to break the system. If you take the -30 BP option for 20,000 nuyen.gif/month and couple that with the +30 40 hr/wk option, I'm suddenly making 240,000 nuyen.gif a year for no BP cost. According to the same rules, I can make 300,000 nuyen.gif a year for 5 BP. At that point, why would I bother running? I'd be more like Batman than a shadowrunner

Except instead of being a billionaire you only make 300k nuyen.gif a year of witch living only a high lifestyle eats away 120k and instead of spending you time hobnobbing with the rich and famous you have to work 40h per week wink.gif
Gerzel
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 18 2011, 06:43 AM) *
I don't like Day Job to begin with, for many reasons. So take what I say with a grain of salt.

First of all, the payouts are too high. You can get 30,000 a month for no net BP cost? Sign me up. Even if you call it an edge at this point, you still can take 35 more points worth of them to fill out your character. It turns into free money at this point.

Second, downtime isn't as big a deal as you might think. It only really applies to building things and natural healing. If your character isn't building anything, and has access to magical healing, it won't be a serious limitation. Besides which, the character could always plead the case to his boss that he needs sick leave if he's really hurt badly.


I agree that the payouts are a bit high, at least on the higher ends of the scale. I probably would shift the increment down to 2.5k somewhere in the future. The idea of the rules as written is to make them fit in with the original quality.

For downtime I don't say that the PC doesn't go on the run. Instead, I would put in a fatigue penalty on their rolls as their PC is being over worked and it is showing in their performance. The other side is to lower the PC's pay or put the job in jeopardy. Often a bit of roleplaying will do the trick on either the player or GMs part.

Though one thing is that the GM should always look over and approve of qualities. Negative qualities, be they true negative qualities or downsides of positives) have to be played to affect the PC. If the GM never brings in an Enemy, or doesn't make sure that the PC plays out some mental quality it is exactly as if the PC gets those points for free. The thing is that the real impact of qualities will vary depending on the GM, Player, and game the GM is running.

The thing about a particular rule, quality, or anything in this game being broken to remember is. This is not World of Warcraft or any computer MMO where if a rule is broken everyone can take advantage to their heart's content making play impossible for others. The GM IS the system. If a rule breaks the system then the GM is broken, or rather not doing their job. It might not be easy but the GM has to watch out for builds that are being abused and check players when it happens so that the everyone in the group has a good time. The exact same build can be fine with one player/GM combination and broken with another.

Finally the argument of "This PC is making X thousands a month why are they shadowrunning?" I shall give my standard answer to. "This PC has XYZ bp spent in skills, and abilities that are well beyond the human norm and could almost certainly get employment elsewhere, why is nearly ANY shadowrunner running? Unless we want to start requiring criminal SINs and unstable mental qualities that make every PC unsuitable for normal employment you could ask the question of why they are running for most PCs. This is doubly true for the awakened.
hermit
I like this. It's a really ncie idea. Yes, it is unbalanced, and I'd reduce the cost of work hours so you don't get free money, but the idea is very nice.
Gerzel
QUOTE (hermit @ Jul 18 2011, 08:05 AM) *
I like this. It's a really ncie idea. Yes, it is unbalanced, and I'd reduce the cost of work hours so you don't get free money, but the idea is very nice.


I don't see it as "free money" if a PC takes work hours + pay that comes out to 0. What it means is that the positive and negative aspects of the qualities should balance out.

One thing a GM might do is divide the positive and negative parts of this quality into two separate qualities so that they both count against the spending limits. Though that has its own problems in some ways and doesn't solve much if the GM isn't enforcing the negative aspects of the quality in play.

In-Play is where the rubber really meets the road. Many if not most qualities are utterly "broken" unless they are played.
Cain
If you're enforcing fatigue penalties, then a smart character will just take a sleep regulator (or be an Adept with Sustenance). Problem solved.

As for the "free money" issue, if the Day Job isn't impeding his shadowrunning work, it's free points. If it is impeding his shadowrunning work, then the player is forced to sit out, which is no fun. If you do something else, like enforce fatigue penalties, see above. This is why I don't like Day Job: it's hard to enforce the flaw in game without cutting out the player.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 18 2011, 09:04 AM) *
If you're enforcing fatigue penalties, then a smart character will just take a sleep regulator (or be an Adept with Sustenance). Problem solved.

As for the "free money" issue, if the Day Job isn't impeding his shadowrunning work, it's free points. If it is impeding his shadowrunning work, then the player is forced to sit out, which is no fun. If you do something else, like enforce fatigue penalties, see above. This is why I don't like Day Job: it's hard to enforce the flaw in game without cutting out the player.



So you're saying that if the PC takes the sleep regulator they get the normal advantage of having a sleep regulator...

How is that broken?

Is the Hacker getting free money for using their PC's downtime for programming? Or the mage for study?

The other way is if the PC is trying to do other things during downtime, such as improve skills, to ask when they are doing that.

Also remember Legal jobs are connected to a SIN. Working them almost always leaves a datatrail, a real datatrail that puts out real details of the character's life. They introduce routines that the PC has to follow and non-runners who know sensitive information about the PC. It is something for the PC to lose.

Illegal jobs come with their own complications.

If a job is too over-powering for a PC then take it away.
Cain
Not all characters have a use for downtime. Samurai and Adepts in particular can end up with a lot of time on their hands. Skills don't require training, unless you add in that rule yourself; and even then, they can get a tutorsoft for that. The sleep regulator is a way of bypassing fatigue penalties from working a 40-hour week, and then staying up all night shadowrunning. Net result: no penalty, which makes it free points.

Legal jobs are connected to SINs, but that's already covered under the SINner flaw. And the SINner flaw is pretty worthless anyway, because any shadowrunner worth their salt will have half a dozen fake SINs ready to roll out on a moment's notice. I don't see how this would increase the penalty of having the SINner flaw, and I see it as making Day Job potentially even worse.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 18 2011, 09:29 AM) *
Not all characters have a use for downtime. Samurai and Adepts in particular can end up with a lot of time on their hands. Skills don't require training, unless you add in that rule yourself; and even then, they can get a tutorsoft for that. The sleep regulator is a way of bypassing fatigue penalties from working a 40-hour week, and then staying up all night shadowrunning. Net result: no penalty, which makes it free points.

Legal jobs are connected to SINs, but that's already covered under the SINner flaw. And the SINner flaw is pretty worthless anyway, because any shadowrunner worth their salt will have half a dozen fake SINs ready to roll out on a moment's notice. I don't see how this would increase the penalty of having the SINner flaw, and I see it as making Day Job potentially even worse.



Ok, then you could say that this rule makes things fairer by giving Sams and Adepts more 'use' for their downtime, thus making the other builds less 'broken'.

This argument can go back and forth either way. I see the expanded Day Jobs as a way of adding more options to flesh out characters by allowing them to get an income which their background indicates they should get. The flip side of that is that they have more to lose.

There are plenty of rules that are more "broken" or unfair than this in any edition of SR. It is a house rule anyway.

The idea is to add in more roleplaying potential by giving the player more investment in their PCs background. If it gets in the way of the fun, remove it. As GM you are master of the freakin universe you have the power you just have to figure out how to use it.
Nebular
This is a really neat idea. I especially like the Flexible Hours and Boss from Hell options. smile.gif

Not all of the options need to be perfectly balanced. Some things are better suited as character roleplaying options - things that just make the character more interesting for the player. One of my players has Allergy, Mild (Chickens). Some would see it as the character exploiting the rules to get free BP. She sees it as an amusing character flaw. I see it as chance to have some fun tormenting her by having part of a run climax with a shootout at a heavily-populated chicken farm. 10 BP well earned in my mind! biggrin.gif
Aku
See, you guys are talking like it's the GM's choice if someone misses a session because of their "job", where as, i see it as the players choice. First of all, the player took the flaw, for X number of hours. Now, lets take a look at some possible scenarios:


A) Working for a co-worker. So your boss calls you up, says someone called in sick, the day of a run, ya say ya can't, already have plans. Well, ok, no problem. but if you decline often enough, you develop a reputation as not being a "team" player. Maybe you get bypassed for a promotion, because it seems like you only "do enough" to get through the day. or maybe, there just happens to be a run that takes place during your shift, which leads to b:

B) Needing time off: Ya know, Aunt Jean is getting married for the 5th time, and you REALLY want to be at this wedding, but it's only a weeks notice. Well,ok, the boss says, but it'd be helpful if you find your replacement. If you've worked for other people, maybe you can call in a few minor favors to get someone to cover your shift. But again, if it happens too often, you start to look unreliable, even if you're finding people to work for you.

These are choices the PLAYER and the CHARACTER have to make, not the GM
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Nebular @ Jul 18 2011, 09:34 AM) *
This is a really neat idea. I especially like the Flexible Hours and Boss from Hell options. smile.gif

Not all of the options need to be perfectly balanced. Some things are better suited as character roleplaying options - things that just make the character more interesting for the player. One of my players has Allergy, Mild (Chickens). Some would see it as the character exploiting the rules to get free BP. She sees it as an amusing character flaw. I see it as chance to have some fun tormenting her by having part of a run climax with a shootout at a heavily-populated chicken farm. 10 BP well earned in my mind! biggrin.gif

Like an awakened or technomancer taking the Sensitive System quality when they have no plans in buying any cyberware at all. I know a GM who requires anyone that takes this quality to have at least one piece of substantial cyberware (a hand at least).

And besides, if you're working 40 hours a week, on average that's 8 hours a day, there's other things time wise you have to consider as well. There's your commute time to and from work & home (potentially an hour or two at least, each way), and anywhere from half to a full hour off in the middle for lunch. Potentially half your day is unusable for running or other stuff (like picking up a few magazines worth of ammo you blew on the last run, or learning that new spell). Sure there are ways around this, and it'll take a lot of work to keep the "free nuyen" coming in as every boss has their limits.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 18 2011, 12:37 PM) *
See, you guys are talking like it's the GM's choice if someone misses a session because of their "job", where as, i see it as the players choice. First of all, the player took the flaw, for X number of hours. Now, lets take a look at some possible scenarios:


A) Working for a co-worker. So your boss calls you up, says someone called in sick, the day of a run, ya say ya can't, already have plans. Well, ok, no problem. but if you decline often enough, you develop a reputation as not being a "team" player. Maybe you get bypassed for a promotion, because it seems like you only "do enough" to get through the day. or maybe, there just happens to be a run that takes place during your shift, which leads to b:

B) Needing time off: Ya know, Aunt Jean is getting married for the 5th time, and you REALLY want to be at this wedding, but it's only a weeks notice. Well,ok, the boss says, but it'd be helpful if you find your replacement. If you've worked for other people, maybe you can call in a few minor favors to get someone to cover your shift. But again, if it happens too often, you start to look unreliable, even if you're finding people to work for you.

These are choices the PLAYER and the CHARACTER have to make, not the GM


Yeah but the GM is the one that plays the co-workers, boss, and Aunt Jean and decides when they call on the PC. I'm not sure if I get your point. Both Player and GM have to participate to make a flaw worth its points. Generally I view flaws as having been earned if they either are:

A: Roleplayed well and entertainingly by the Player.
B: Give the GM good plot hooks to get the PC involved or otherwise work with the PC.
Aku
QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 18 2011, 04:26 PM) *
Yeah but the GM is the one that plays the co-workers, boss, and Aunt Jean and decides when they call on the PC. I'm not sure if I get your point. Both Player and GM have to participate to make a flaw worth its points. Generally I view flaws as having been earned if they either are:

A: Roleplayed well and entertainingly by the Player.
B: Give the GM good plot hooks to get the PC involved or otherwise work with the PC.


My point is that it's the player that ultimately decides if they go on the run, not the gm saying "well, you planned this run during your work hours, so you're not going".

P.S. Aunt Jean was just a cover to go on a run nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
You know, this quality is interesting in a way I just thought of:

*Getting shot at by security drones while a earth elemental smashes on the GMC Stepvan* "Oh $Deity I wish I was back at my day job right now..."

*Bored out of your skull at the Stuffer Shack* "Oh $Deity I wish I was on a Run right now..."
Cain
QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 18 2011, 07:02 AM) *
Ok, then you could say that this rule makes things fairer by giving Sams and Adepts more 'use' for their downtime, thus making the other builds less 'broken'.

This argument can go back and forth either way. I see the expanded Day Jobs as a way of adding more options to flesh out characters by allowing them to get an income which their background indicates they should get. The flip side of that is that they have more to lose.

There are plenty of rules that are more "broken" or unfair than this in any edition of SR. It is a house rule anyway.

The idea is to add in more roleplaying potential by giving the player more investment in their PCs background. If it gets in the way of the fun, remove it. As GM you are master of the freakin universe you have the power you just have to figure out how to use it.

Okay, first of all, there are plenty of ways for characters to earn cash. You can start with 250,000 nuyen.gif easily enough, and that's more than what you need to make a very powerful build. You can also take Born Rich and Trust Fund to get yourself a regular income, without the hassle of downtime.

Second, if you want characters to earn money in their downtime, they can roleplay it out. Not everyone likes to roleplay grinding, but if that suits your table, go for it. No need to make up a new rule.

Third and most importantly, roleplay is what you make of it. If you want to invest players more in their character backgrounds, then use them. You don't need flaws to do that, you just need to work with your players and bring their backgrounds into game. This is what it sounds like you're trying to do, but you don't need to take an already broken rule and make it worse. Instead of using the stats on the sheet to bring roleplay into the game, use their own character histories.
Gerzel
Cain: Except the point of roleplaying is to make it interesting. Most people don't find day jobs interesting, at least the day to day parts of them. It adds character options that previously were not very well reflected in the rules.

Besides it is an option, and like all Qualities up for GM approval(SR4A pg79(wtf is it doing before bg?)). What is the big deal?

Ok one thing you haven't directly mentioned is that the Expanded options to jive well with Trust Fund as it is. I will have to work to fix that. Still not every independent source of income is a trustfund or is legal. And plenty of sources are dependent on work.

-------
Edit:
Ok after looking over Trust fund and taking into account lifestyle costs my rule taking income at 15 bp w/o any work gives 5000:nuyen:. Trustfund for 10bp gives equivalent to 5500:nuyen:. At 20bp mine gives 10000:nuyen: and trustfund gives 11000:nuyen: equivalent. In otherwords for the points trustfund is giving MORE than my rule. So no change is needed there at least IMHO.
Cain
QUOTE (Gerzel @ Jul 19 2011, 10:40 AM) *
Cain: Except the point of roleplaying is to make it interesting. Most people don't find day jobs interesting, at least the day to day parts of them. It adds character options that previously were not very well reflected in the rules.

Besides it is an option, and like all Qualities up for GM approval(SR4A pg79(wtf is it doing before bg?)). What is the big deal?

Ok one thing you haven't directly mentioned is that the Expanded options to jive well with Trust Fund as it is. I will have to work to fix that. Still not every independent source of income is a trustfund or is legal. And plenty of sources are dependent on work.

-------
Edit:
Ok after looking over Trust fund and taking into account lifestyle costs my rule taking income at 15 bp w/o any work gives 5000:nuyen:. Trustfund for 10bp gives equivalent to 5500:nuyen:. At 20bp mine gives 10000:nuyen: and trustfund gives 11000:nuyen: equivalent. In otherwords for the points trustfund is giving MORE than my rule. So no change is needed there at least IMHO.

I generally don't like edges that give you more nuyen. Like I said, a quarter of a million is more than enough, you don't really need any extra. If I encountered a player who really, *really* needed an extra 30k for his character, and could justify it, I'd probably relax the 50 BP rule. And I don't know about you, but fighting to earn a permanent lifestyle and retire should be a major character goal in Shadowrun.

As for roleplaying to make it interesting, you don't need new edges and flaws for that. Just roleplay downtime the way your players want to do it. SR4.5 is broken enough as is, you certainly don't need to give the characters "F**k off!* money right out of the gate. Don't get stuck on the numbers on the sheet: play to their backgrounds, not their stats.

[Tangent]In Neal Stephenson's Cryptonimicon, he explains the concept of "F**k Off money". Basically, it's the sum required to live comfortably for the rest of your life, and tell all your problems to get lost. The exact amount doesn't matter, but someone with Born Rich, Trust Fund, and your proposed Day Job "fix" shoots over it really quickly.[/Tangent]
Gerzel
Thinking about it some more I think next time I'll use an adjusted Salary/Month Table like this:

Salary/Month pay is like this:
1,000 costs 5 bp
2,500 costs 10 bp
5,000 costs 15 bp
7,500 costs 20 bp
10,000 costs 25 bp
12,500 costs 30 bp
+2,500 costs +5 bp

This should handle Cain's worries about being too much and looking at it does indeed fit the existing rules a bit better.
Neko Asakami
You know, that's about what I was thinking. It's still a bit too high for my campaign's standards (my runners are having to split a house payment right now because, except for the face and the ex-Vory, none of them are very experienced and are poor due to having to take low paying jobs), but for a normal game I could swing numbers like those and be okay with it.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Jul 20 2011, 12:41 AM) *
You know, that's about what I was thinking. It's still a bit too high for my campaign's standards (my runners are having to split a house payment right now because, except for the face and the ex-Vory, none of them are very experienced and are poor due to having to take low paying jobs), but for a normal game I could swing numbers like those and be okay with it.


You could always adjust it down. To say 1k a month for each 5bp after 5000/month. (under that it stops fitting with the current day job rules.)
SpellBinder
A GM could also always put a cap on the nuyen/month for players, too. Especially if all the pay is "under the table".
Cain
That is better, but how will you handle the downtime question?

I'd suggest varying the Trust Fund edge. Instead of locking down the income source as a day job, let it be whatever the players want. Make them define it, that'll help invest more in their characters. It could be doing Fixer work part-time, or drug dealing, chop shop work, or a legitimate job; basically, whatever fits the character best. Don't define a particular amount of downtime required, since this is an edge: make them decide how it should play out.
Gerzel
QUOTE (Cain @ Jul 20 2011, 03:05 AM) *
That is better, but how will you handle the downtime question?

I'd suggest varying the Trust Fund edge. Instead of locking down the income source as a day job, let it be whatever the players want. Make them define it, that'll help invest more in their characters. It could be doing Fixer work part-time, or drug dealing, chop shop work, or a legitimate job; basically, whatever fits the character best. Don't define a particular amount of downtime required, since this is an edge: make them decide how it should play out.


That's how I already had it b/c Expanded Day Job Options sounds better than "Independent Income".

You can already buy this quality as-written w/o taking any work hours option. Though there does have to be a discussion of where the income is coming from and what the character has to do to keep the income coming in.

If you like you could separate the work-hours and income as different qualities but as I discussed before that comes up with other problems as they are both connected to the same item.
Cain
It'd probably be better that way, although tying up downtime can really mess with characters. As a flaw, it means they miss out on important shadowrunning-related time, sometimes even whole runs. I'd think it's better to leave it up to the story and roleplay.

Bushw4cker
Reading Vice, and read this a few days ago, thought about it while reading posts.

DIY: Day Job
I know some of you have ‘em. Typical 8-6 jobs,
probably, slaving away five or six days a week for
a steady paycheck to support your parents, your
kids, and your deadbeat sister who keeps getting
pregnant and popping out another litter. Oh wait,
I’m projecting. Anyway, there’s no reason a day job
can’t work for you if you have the will and skill to
make it happen. It works best when you’re in some
sort of hiring position on a remote site; the more
power and access you have, the more opportunities
present themselves.
Right now, I basically live in my StufferShack.
The other three “employees” are my extra SINs,
silently accruing legitimacy and collecting paycred
deposits and benefits. I live off the stock I
over-ordered and the stuff that gets reported as
shoplifted. I’ve converted the employees’ bathroom
into a small armory—I can lock up and be out the
door fully loaded in less than a minute. In two years
I hit “senior manager” status and I’ll be eligible for
stock options.
Of course, running the store does cut into my
shadowrunning time. I have to ensure that it makes
at least a little bit of a profit, even if I need to hack
StufferShack Corp. to cook the books. I’ve killed six
people who’ve tried to rob the store over the last
eighteen months, and I had to clean up and dispose
of the bodies myself because if the cops look into
my little operation, all my hard work is down the
tubes. Still, it’s a living—especially when the shadows
get too hot and I need to lie low for a while.

> I’m never again going to StufferShack unarmed.
> Kane
CanRay
With bank transfers being the preferred method of paying for items, this brings up some questions...

Why does Stuffer Shack need a staff?

And what the hell do you hold it up for? nyahnyah.gif
Zaranthan
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 20 2011, 01:04 PM) *
With bank transfers being the preferred method of paying for items, this brings up some questions...

Why does Stuffer Shack need a staff?

And what the hell do you hold it up for? nyahnyah.gif

You'd want at least one warm body on the premises to clean the place up.

As for holding it up, go watch a video of somebody holding up a convenience store. ANY video. They always steal cigarettes. ALWAYS. Whether they're robbing a mom & pop corner store for $50, a liquor store for $500, or a pawn shop for thousands of dollars worth of jewelry, they always stop on the way out to grab as many packs of cigarettes as they can carry.
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