[X] My Assistant

[hermit]

I like this. It's a really ncie idea. Yes, it is unbalanced, and I'd reduce the cost of work hours so you don't get free money, but the idea is very nice.

[Gerzel]

I like this. It's a really ncie idea. Yes, it is unbalanced, and I'd reduce the cost of work hours so you don't get free money, but the idea is very nice.

I don't see it as "free money" if a PC takes work hours + pay that comes out to 0. What it means is that the positive and negative aspects of the qualities should balance out.

One thing a GM might do is divide the positive and negative parts of this quality into two separate qualities so that they both count against the spending limits. Though that has its own problems in some ways and doesn't solve much if the GM isn't enforcing the negative aspects of the quality in play.

In-Play is where the rubber really meets the road. Many if not most qualities are utterly "broken" unless they are played.

[Cain]

If you're enforcing fatigue penalties, then a smart character will just take a sleep regulator (or be an Adept with Sustenance). Problem solved.

As for the "free money" issue, if the Day Job isn't impeding his shadowrunning work, it's free points. If it is impeding his shadowrunning work, then the player is forced to sit out, which is no fun. If you do something else, like enforce fatigue penalties, see above. This is why I don't like Day Job: it's hard to enforce the flaw in game without cutting out the player.

[Gerzel]

If you're enforcing fatigue penalties, then a smart character will just take a sleep regulator (or be an Adept with Sustenance). Problem solved.

As for the "free money" issue, if the Day Job isn't impeding his shadowrunning work, it's free points. If it is impeding his shadowrunning work, then the player is forced to sit out, which is no fun. If you do something else, like enforce fatigue penalties, see above. This is why I don't like Day Job: it's hard to enforce the flaw in game without cutting out the player.

So you're saying that if the PC takes the sleep regulator they get the normal advantage of having a sleep regulator...

How is that broken?

Is the Hacker getting free money for using their PC's downtime for programming? Or the mage for study?

The other way is if the PC is trying to do other things during downtime, such as improve skills, to ask when they are doing that.

Also remember Legal jobs are connected to a SIN. Working them almost always leaves a datatrail, a real datatrail that puts out real details of the character's life. They introduce routines that the PC has to follow and non-runners who know sensitive information about the PC. It is something for the PC to lose.

Illegal jobs come with their own complications.

If a job is too over-powering for a PC then take it away.

[Cain]

Not all characters have a use for downtime. Samurai and Adepts in particular can end up with a lot of time on their hands. Skills don't require training, unless you add in that rule yourself; and even then, they can get a tutorsoft for that. The sleep regulator is a way of bypassing fatigue penalties from working a 40-hour week, and then staying up all night shadowrunning. Net result: no penalty, which makes it free points.

Legal jobs are connected to SINs, but that's already covered under the SINner flaw. And the SINner flaw is pretty worthless anyway, because any shadowrunner worth their salt will have half a dozen fake SINs ready to roll out on a moment's notice. I don't see how this would increase the penalty of having the SINner flaw, and I see it as making Day Job potentially even worse.

[Gerzel]

Not all characters have a use for downtime. Samurai and Adepts in particular can end up with a lot of time on their hands. Skills don't require training, unless you add in that rule yourself; and even then, they can get a tutorsoft for that. The sleep regulator is a way of bypassing fatigue penalties from working a 40-hour week, and then staying up all night shadowrunning. Net result: no penalty, which makes it free points.

Legal jobs are connected to SINs, but that's already covered under the SINner flaw. And the SINner flaw is pretty worthless anyway, because any shadowrunner worth their salt will have half a dozen fake SINs ready to roll out on a moment's notice. I don't see how this would increase the penalty of having the SINner flaw, and I see it as making Day Job potentially even worse.

Ok, then you could say that this rule makes things fairer by giving Sams and Adepts more 'use' for their downtime, thus making the other builds less 'broken'.

This argument can go back and forth either way. I see the expanded Day Jobs as a way of adding more options to flesh out characters by allowing them to get an income which their background indicates they should get. The flip side of that is that they have more to lose.

There are plenty of rules that are more "broken" or unfair than this in any edition of SR. It is a house rule anyway.

The idea is to add in more roleplaying potential by giving the player more investment in their PCs background. If it gets in the way of the fun, remove it. As GM you are master of the freakin universe you have the power you just have to figure out how to use it.

[Nebular]

This is a really neat idea. I especially like the Flexible Hours and Boss from Hell options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not all of the options need to be perfectly balanced. Some things are better suited as character roleplaying options - things that just make the character more interesting for the player. One of my players has Allergy, Mild (Chickens). Some would see it as the character exploiting the rules to get free BP. She sees it as an amusing character flaw. I see it as chance to have some fun tormenting her by having part of a run climax with a shootout at a heavily-populated chicken farm. 10 BP well earned in my mind! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Aku]

See, you guys are talking like it's the GM's choice if someone misses a session because of their "job", where as, i see it as the players choice. First of all, the player took the flaw, for X number of hours. Now, lets take a look at some possible scenarios:


A) Working for a co-worker. So your boss calls you up, says someone called in sick, the day of a run, ya say ya can't, already have plans. Well, ok, no problem. but if you decline often enough, you develop a reputation as not being a "team" player. Maybe you get bypassed for a promotion, because it seems like you only "do enough" to get through the day. or maybe, there just happens to be a run that takes place during your shift, which leads to b:

B) Needing time off: Ya know, Aunt Jean is getting married for the 5th time, and you REALLY want to be at this wedding, but it's only a weeks notice. Well,ok, the boss says, but it'd be helpful if you find your replacement. If you've worked for other people, maybe you can call in a few minor favors to get someone to cover your shift. But again, if it happens too often, you start to look unreliable, even if you're finding people to work for you.

These are choices the PLAYER and the CHARACTER have to make, not the GM

[SpellBinder]

This is a really neat idea. I especially like the Flexible Hours and Boss from Hell options. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not all of the options need to be perfectly balanced. Some things are better suited as character roleplaying options - things that just make the character more interesting for the player. One of my players has Allergy, Mild (Chickens). Some would see it as the character exploiting the rules to get free BP. She sees it as an amusing character flaw. I see it as chance to have some fun tormenting her by having part of a run climax with a shootout at a heavily-populated chicken farm. 10 BP well earned in my mind! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Like an awakened or technomancer taking the Sensitive System quality when they have no plans in buying any cyberware at all. I know a GM who requires anyone that takes this quality to have at least one piece of substantial cyberware (a hand at least).

And besides, if you're working 40 hours a week, on average that's 8 hours a day, there's other things time wise you have to consider as well. There's your commute time to and from work & home (potentially an hour or two at least, each way), and anywhere from half to a full hour off in the middle for lunch. Potentially half your day is unusable for running or other stuff (like picking up a few magazines worth of ammo you blew on the last run, or learning that new spell). Sure there are ways around this, and it'll take a lot of work to keep the "free nuyen" coming in as every boss has their limits.

[Gerzel]

See, you guys are talking like it's the GM's choice if someone misses a session because of their "job", where as, i see it as the players choice. First of all, the player took the flaw, for X number of hours. Now, lets take a look at some possible scenarios:


A) Working for a co-worker. So your boss calls you up, says someone called in sick, the day of a run, ya say ya can't, already have plans. Well, ok, no problem. but if you decline often enough, you develop a reputation as not being a "team" player. Maybe you get bypassed for a promotion, because it seems like you only "do enough" to get through the day. or maybe, there just happens to be a run that takes place during your shift, which leads to b:

B) Needing time off: Ya know, Aunt Jean is getting married for the 5th time, and you REALLY want to be at this wedding, but it's only a weeks notice. Well,ok, the boss says, but it'd be helpful if you find your replacement. If you've worked for other people, maybe you can call in a few minor favors to get someone to cover your shift. But again, if it happens too often, you start to look unreliable, even if you're finding people to work for you.

These are choices the PLAYER and the CHARACTER have to make, not the GM

Yeah but the GM is the one that plays the co-workers, boss, and Aunt Jean and decides when they call on the PC. I'm not sure if I get your point. Both Player and GM have to participate to make a flaw worth its points. Generally I view flaws as having been earned if they either are:

A: Roleplayed well and entertainingly by the Player.
B: Give the GM good plot hooks to get the PC involved or otherwise work with the PC.

[Aku]

Yeah but the GM is the one that plays the co-workers, boss, and Aunt Jean and decides when they call on the PC. I'm not sure if I get your point. Both Player and GM have to participate to make a flaw worth its points. Generally I view flaws as having been earned if they either are:

A: Roleplayed well and entertainingly by the Player.
B: Give the GM good plot hooks to get the PC involved or otherwise work with the PC.

My point is that it's the player that ultimately decides if they go on the run, not the gm saying "well, you planned this run during your work hours, so you're not going".

P.S. Aunt Jean was just a cover to go on a run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

You know, this quality is interesting in a way I just thought of:

*Getting shot at by security drones while a earth elemental smashes on the GMC Stepvan* "Oh $Deity I wish I was back at my day job right now..."

*Bored out of your skull at the Stuffer Shack* "Oh $Deity I wish I was on a Run right now..."

[Cain]

Ok, then you could say that this rule makes things fairer by giving Sams and Adepts more 'use' for their downtime, thus making the other builds less 'broken'.

This argument can go back and forth either way. I see the expanded Day Jobs as a way of adding more options to flesh out characters by allowing them to get an income which their background indicates they should get. The flip side of that is that they have more to lose.

There are plenty of rules that are more "broken" or unfair than this in any edition of SR. It is a house rule anyway.

The idea is to add in more roleplaying potential by giving the player more investment in their PCs background. If it gets in the way of the fun, remove it. As GM you are master of the freakin universe you have the power you just have to figure out how to use it.

Okay, first of all, there are plenty of ways for characters to earn cash. You can start with 250,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) easily enough, and that's more than what you need to make a very powerful build. You can also take Born Rich and Trust Fund to get yourself a regular income, without the hassle of downtime.

Second, if you want characters to earn money in their downtime, they can roleplay it out. Not everyone likes to roleplay grinding, but if that suits your table, go for it. No need to make up a new rule.

Third and most importantly, roleplay is what you make of it. If you want to invest players more in their character backgrounds, then use them. You don't need flaws to do that, you just need to work with your players and bring their backgrounds into game. This is what it sounds like you're trying to do, but you don't need to take an already broken rule and make it worse. Instead of using the stats on the sheet to bring roleplay into the game, use their own character histories.

[Gerzel]

Cain: Except the point of roleplaying is to make it interesting. Most people don't find day jobs interesting, at least the day to day parts of them. It adds character options that previously were not very well reflected in the rules.

Besides it is an option, and like all Qualities up for GM approval(SR4A pg79(wtf is it doing before bg?)). What is the big deal?

Ok one thing you haven't directly mentioned is that the Expanded options to jive well with Trust Fund as it is. I will have to work to fix that. Still not every independent source of income is a trustfund or is legal. And plenty of sources are dependent on work.

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Edit:
Ok after looking over Trust fund and taking into account lifestyle costs my rule taking income at 15 bp w/o any work gives 5000:nuyen:. Trustfund for 10bp gives equivalent to 5500:nuyen:. At 20bp mine gives 10000:nuyen: and trustfund gives 11000:nuyen: equivalent. In otherwords for the points trustfund is giving MORE than my rule. So no change is needed there at least IMHO.

[Cain]

Cain: Except the point of roleplaying is to make it interesting. Most people don't find day jobs interesting, at least the day to day parts of them. It adds character options that previously were not very well reflected in the rules.

Besides it is an option, and like all Qualities up for GM approval(SR4A pg79(wtf is it doing before bg?)). What is the big deal?

Ok one thing you haven't directly mentioned is that the Expanded options to jive well with Trust Fund as it is. I will have to work to fix that. Still not every independent source of income is a trustfund or is legal. And plenty of sources are dependent on work.

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Edit:
Ok after looking over Trust fund and taking into account lifestyle costs my rule taking income at 15 bp w/o any work gives 5000:nuyen:. Trustfund for 10bp gives equivalent to 5500:nuyen:. At 20bp mine gives 10000:nuyen: and trustfund gives 11000:nuyen: equivalent. In otherwords for the points trustfund is giving MORE than my rule. So no change is needed there at least IMHO.

I generally don't like edges that give you more nuyen. Like I said, a quarter of a million is more than enough, you don't really need any extra. If I encountered a player who really, *really* needed an extra 30k for his character, and could justify it, I'd probably relax the 50 BP rule. And I don't know about you, but fighting to earn a permanent lifestyle and retire should be a major character goal in Shadowrun.

As for roleplaying to make it interesting, you don't need new edges and flaws for that. Just roleplay downtime the way your players want to do it. SR4.5 is broken enough as is, you certainly don't need to give the characters "F**k off!* money right out of the gate. Don't get stuck on the numbers on the sheet: play to their backgrounds, not their stats.

[Tangent]In Neal Stephenson's Cryptonimicon, he explains the concept of "F**k Off money". Basically, it's the sum required to live comfortably for the rest of your life, and tell all your problems to get lost. The exact amount doesn't matter, but someone with Born Rich, Trust Fund, and your proposed Day Job "fix" shoots over it really quickly.[/Tangent]

[Gerzel]

Thinking about it some more I think next time I'll use an adjusted Salary/Month Table like this:

Salary/Month pay is like this:
1,000 costs 5 bp
2,500 costs 10 bp
5,000 costs 15 bp
7,500 costs 20 bp
10,000 costs 25 bp
12,500 costs 30 bp
+2,500 costs +5 bp

This should handle Cain's worries about being too much and looking at it does indeed fit the existing rules a bit better.

[Neko Asakami]

You know, that's about what I was thinking. It's still a bit too high for my campaign's standards (my runners are having to split a house payment right now because, except for the face and the ex-Vory, none of them are very experienced and are poor due to having to take low paying jobs), but for a normal game I could swing numbers like those and be okay with it.

[Gerzel]

You know, that's about what I was thinking. It's still a bit too high for my campaign's standards (my runners are having to split a house payment right now because, except for the face and the ex-Vory, none of them are very experienced and are poor due to having to take low paying jobs), but for a normal game I could swing numbers like those and be okay with it.

You could always adjust it down. To say 1k a month for each 5bp after 5000/month. (under that it stops fitting with the current day job rules.)

[SpellBinder]

A GM could also always put a cap on the nuyen/month for players, too. Especially if all the pay is "under the table".

[Cain]

That is better, but how will you handle the downtime question?

I'd suggest varying the Trust Fund edge. Instead of locking down the income source as a day job, let it be whatever the players want. Make them define it, that'll help invest more in their characters. It could be doing Fixer work part-time, or drug dealing, chop shop work, or a legitimate job; basically, whatever fits the character best. Don't define a particular amount of downtime required, since this is an edge: make them decide how it should play out.

[Gerzel]

That is better, but how will you handle the downtime question?

I'd suggest varying the Trust Fund edge. Instead of locking down the income source as a day job, let it be whatever the players want. Make them define it, that'll help invest more in their characters. It could be doing Fixer work part-time, or drug dealing, chop shop work, or a legitimate job; basically, whatever fits the character best. Don't define a particular amount of downtime required, since this is an edge: make them decide how it should play out.

That's how I already had it b/c Expanded Day Job Options sounds better than "Independent Income".

You can already buy this quality as-written w/o taking any work hours option. Though there does have to be a discussion of where the income is coming from and what the character has to do to keep the income coming in.

If you like you could separate the work-hours and income as different qualities but as I discussed before that comes up with other problems as they are both connected to the same item.

[Cain]

It'd probably be better that way, although tying up downtime can really mess with characters. As a flaw, it means they miss out on important shadowrunning-related time, sometimes even whole runs. I'd think it's better to leave it up to the story and roleplay.

[Bushw4cker]

Reading Vice, and read this a few days ago, thought about it while reading posts.

DIY: Day Job
I know some of you have ‘em. Typical 8-6 jobs,
probably, slaving away five or six days a week for
a steady paycheck to support your parents, your
kids, and your deadbeat sister who keeps getting
pregnant and popping out another litter. Oh wait,
I’m projecting. Anyway, there’s no reason a day job
can’t work for you if you have the will and skill to
make it happen. It works best when you’re in some
sort of hiring position on a remote site; the more
power and access you have, the more opportunities
present themselves.
Right now, I basically live in my StufferShack.
The other three “employees” are my extra SINs,
silently accruing legitimacy and collecting paycred
deposits and benefits. I live off the stock I
over-ordered and the stuff that gets reported as
shoplifted. I’ve converted the employees’ bathroom
into a small armory—I can lock up and be out the
door fully loaded in less than a minute. In two years
I hit “senior manager” status and I’ll be eligible for
stock options.
Of course, running the store does cut into my
shadowrunning time. I have to ensure that it makes
at least a little bit of a profit, even if I need to hack
StufferShack Corp. to cook the books. I’ve killed six
people who’ve tried to rob the store over the last
eighteen months, and I had to clean up and dispose
of the bodies myself because if the cops look into
my little operation, all my hard work is down the
tubes. Still, it’s a living—especially when the shadows
get too hot and I need to lie low for a while.

> I’m never again going to StufferShack unarmed.
> Kane

[CanRay]

With bank transfers being the preferred method of paying for items, this brings up some questions...

Why does Stuffer Shack need a staff?

And what the hell do you hold it up for? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Zaranthan]

With bank transfers being the preferred method of paying for items, this brings up some questions...

Why does Stuffer Shack need a staff?

And what the hell do you hold it up for? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

You'd want at least one warm body on the premises to clean the place up.

As for holding it up, go watch a video of somebody holding up a convenience store. ANY video. They always steal cigarettes. ALWAYS. Whether they're robbing a mom & pop corner store for $50, a liquor store for $500, or a pawn shop for thousands of dollars worth of jewelry, they always stop on the way out to grab as many packs of cigarettes as they can carry.