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> Nanohives, cyberlimbs, and cyber eyes, dragged kicking and screaming out of the mage thread
suoq
post Aug 5 2011, 04:45 PM
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Going past the whole, "Can it fit into a cybereye" discussion, I have to admit that I don't understand how it can fit into a cyberlimb and only cost capacity, nevermind fit into a cybereye.

Augmentation, pg 112:
QUOTE
As part of nanohive implantation procedures, a host of other minor cybernetic modifications are made to pre-existing organs including the liver, kidneys, and spleen.
QUOTE
Each nanohive is a sealed egg-shaped implant containing the primary processor, controllers, and neural interfaces and is implanted near arterial or lymphatic junctions.

Neither of these quotes make any sense as far as getting a nanohive into a cyberlimb. In all honesty, I can't find the rule that lets people put nanohives in cyberlimbs. I'm not saying it isn't in the rules somewhere, but if someone could point it out to me with a page number, I'd be grateful.
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MikeKozar
post Aug 5 2011, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (SR4A, Page 338)
Items that have a Capacity rating may be installed in cyberlimbs instead, costing
capacity rather than Essence.


QUOTE (Augmentation, Page 113)
CODE
Nanocybernetics             Essence                  Capacity             Availability    Cost
Nanohive (Rating 1–6)    0.5 + (Rating x 0.25)           [2]              Rating x 5       Rating x 10,000


Because the Capacity rating of the nanohive is [2], it indicates that it is a component that can be installed in a cyberlimb (presumably connecting back to the arterial line somehow) without costing increased Essence. This would seem to indicate that the bulk of the mechanics that support the nanotech are being moved out of the meat and into the metal, and the remaining impact is no more then you would get from having an injection of nanites.

This trick isn't mentioned elsewhere in Augmentation, which is pretty typical of the manuals. However, a Rating 6 nanohive would cost 2 Essence if implanted and none if installed into a cyberlimb, so it is a pretty critical consideration for anyone considering nano and cyber. Is it Kosher? So far nobody has said it ain't.
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KarmaInferno
post Aug 5 2011, 05:07 PM
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No, given the description, it does not makes sense.

Easiest fix would be to just delete the [2] from the capacity listing.





-k
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PoliteMan
post Aug 5 2011, 05:08 PM
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From a balance standpoint, excluding Neural Nanites, would any of the other nanites be worth the essence cost?
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UmaroVI
post Aug 5 2011, 05:10 PM
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I would argue the problem is not the capacity being low, but the essence being ridiculously high. Nothing that you can do with nanohives is remotely worth that much essence.
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MikeKozar
post Aug 5 2011, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 5 2011, 10:07 AM) *
No, given the description, it does not makes sense.

Easiest fix would be to just delete the [2] from the capacity listing.

-k


Seems like it should be the GM's call, really. I'm a big believer in the GM keeping a firm hand on what is allowed at the table, RAW be damned. If I had to handwave it, I would just explain that while it's *technically* possible, there are only three public shops selling nanotech in the metroplex at this point, and none of those guys has any idea how to mount it in a cyberlimb. Corp labs, maybe...

Still, Dumpshock is pretty much RAW, so expect to see it defended pretty loudly.
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suoq
post Aug 5 2011, 05:16 PM
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QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Aug 5 2011, 12:08 PM) *
From a balance standpoint, excluding Neural Nanites, would any of the other nanites be worth the essence cost?

I like limbic, but the total cost and essence always ends up giving the item the cut in Chargen. Nanotats rock, but they're not worth getting a hive for.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 5 2011, 05:18 PM
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It is a tad odd of the vast difference in cost between an implant nanohive or a cyberlimb nanohive. It's clear that it's suppose to be a possible accessory option unless there's something in the Germen version that says otherwise. Sadly I do think the question is important since it does make or break nanite systems as a viable choice for everyone but mundane van hackers.

Off the cuff, I'll lower the essence cost to .3 regardless of rating and have it use up 5 capacity. That seems to be more in line with the general capacity to essence costs. It's now a nice thing to put in your leg and not "OMG put it in your hand instead!"
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Draco18s
post Aug 5 2011, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 5 2011, 01:16 PM) *
I like limbic, but the total cost and essence always ends up giving the item the cut in Chargen. Nanotats rock, but they're not worth getting a hive for.


If I had a character who could make use of a nanohive without issue I'd totally devote 1 rating point (so a R2 hive or better) to having a nanotat.

Problem is that nanites have almost no use worth spending the money/essence to have the hive.
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Seth
post Aug 5 2011, 05:23 PM
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I mostly think nanoware sucks.

Every time you take damage you loose the amount of damage you take from the rating. The rating repairs itself at a point a week. This is physical or mental damage as far as I can tell. Three damage trashes almost all the legal nanotech.

So...very few character don't take damage...
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Draco18s
post Aug 5 2011, 05:24 PM
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QUOTE (Seth @ Aug 5 2011, 01:23 PM) *
Every time you take damage you loose the amount of damage you take from the rating. The rating repairs itself at a point a week. This is physical or mental damage as far as I can tell. Three damage trashes almost all the legal nanotech.


And I was never including that tidit in my calculations.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 5 2011, 05:26 PM
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I would also add the way I see a nanohive in a cyberlimb working is that it's in a lot more forgiving environment than in a metahuman body. So sure you suffer heavier losses due to kidney action, but you can run a lot more efficiently to make up for it. It doesn't also surprise me if there isn't a way for cyberlimbs to inject stuff into the arteries since they'll be right next to them and this is how stuff like biomonitors and autoinjectors work.
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Rubic
post Aug 5 2011, 05:26 PM
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I think the most likely possibility, considering the extra modifications that go along with installation of the nanohive, is that it could be considered an accessory exclusively for a Cybertorso, and otherwise a regular implant. With the modifications to the body's filtration and excretory functions, the essence cost would stem, at least partially, from that area of the body.
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Manunancy
post Aug 5 2011, 05:28 PM
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As far as an arterial or lymphatic junction go, just about every cyberlimb involves re-routing the artery thatd used to irrigate the meat limb, which means that las bit is quite easy (the DNi is easy too).

The liver/spleen/kidney modifications sounds like they keep the nanites in the bloddstream/flush out dangerous bits of worn-out nanites or both. That part of teh system (says half of it) should not be available for essence cost reduction though the hive itself would be.
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PoliteMan
post Aug 5 2011, 05:29 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 6 2011, 01:16 AM) *
I like limbic, but the total cost and essence always ends up giving the item the cut in Chargen. Nanotats rock, but they're not worth getting a hive for.

I like Learning Stimulus myself. It just never makes the cut though.

I rarely see nanites outside of Neural Nanites and those are so good that Hackers will be grabbing them even if they can install it in a cyberlimb. Same essence as Encephelon, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) 5,000 more, chance of hotsim addiction, three times the bonus.
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Zaranthan
post Aug 5 2011, 06:16 PM
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The organ modifications are described as "minor." I always imagined them costing as much essence as a piercing or tattoo. Having a cyberlimb installed would likely require similar antiimmune measures to be successful, so perhaps it's even the same procedure.
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KCKitsune
post Aug 5 2011, 06:40 PM
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Man, you people didn't read that section of Augmentation at all did you?

The following are worth their weight in gold:
  • O-Cells
  • Oxyrush
  • Nano-symbiotes
  • nantidotes
  • Control Rig Booster
  • Nanite Hunters "blue-goo"
  • Trauma Control System (If you have the nano-biomonitor)
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 5 2011, 07:30 PM
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Seriously, KCKitsune. There are easily 3-6 nanite types you'd want in your nanohive, for any archetype, and you didn't even mention the neural amps.

If you're concerned about balance, make the Capacity cost [R] or something (maybe 1+R). A bigger hive should be bigger, esp. given the crazy Essence cost of the wet version.
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KCKitsune
post Aug 5 2011, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 5 2011, 03:30 PM) *
Seriously, KCKitsune. There are easily 3-6 nanite types you'd want in your nanohive, for any archetype, and you didn't even mention the neural amps.

The Neural amps are nice for your character's downtime, but during a 'Run those that I mentioned are golden.

I figure you want them, you can get a second hive and get the neural ones housed in there.

@Seth: Now about damage... Yeah it sucks that it does take a week for every point it is decreased (if you have a hive) for a nano system to come back, but figure this, it is only after you take 3 boxes of physical damage (Augmentation pg 108) that nano systems degrade one point.
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suoq
post Aug 5 2011, 08:06 PM
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QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Aug 5 2011, 01:40 PM) *
The following are worth their weight in gold

Agreed. Every one of them is worth their weight in gold. But none of them, for me, justify the essence, nuyen cost, and annoying bookkeeping of a nanohive, especially the bookkeeping. Tracking nanite damage over time and potentially having to replace them has no appeal to me, I'd rather they worked more like bioware or cyberware or became (in SR5) their own simple subsystem like bioware is.
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Yerameyahu
post Aug 5 2011, 08:11 PM
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I see what you did there, suoq. I really think you're in the minority, though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) There's no essence cost (that's the whole point), and the bookkeeping is minor at worst. There are a number of pretty serious bonuses available.

Yes, they're slightly pricey. Not the very first place you'd spend your money, but after you've got the basic 'ware, armor, and guns…
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Rubic
post Aug 5 2011, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 5 2011, 04:06 PM) *
Agreed. Every one of them is worth their weight in gold. But none of them, for me, justify the essence, nuyen cost, and annoying bookkeeping of a nanohive, especially the bookkeeping. Tracking nanite damage over time and potentially having to replace them has no appeal to me, I'd rather they worked more like bioware or cyberware or became (in SR5) their own simple subsystem like bioware is.

A nice way to do this would be to have 2 separate nanite listings, one for Nanite Treatments (inject and it fades, acts like other drugs), and Nanite Implantations (Nanohive + nanites, don't fade). Treatments can be essence-friendly and carried like drugs, used as needed, and subject to restrictions and legal troubles if you're found with them.
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MikeKozar
post Aug 5 2011, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 5 2011, 12:06 PM) *
Agreed. Every one of them is worth their weight in gold. But none of them, for me, justify the essence, nuyen cost, and annoying bookkeeping of a nanohive, especially the bookkeeping. Tracking nanite damage over time and potentially having to replace them has no appeal to me, I'd rather they worked more like bioware or cyberware or became (in SR5) their own simple subsystem like bioware is.



It's been a while, but aren't there treatments that grant you immunity to toxins, disease, drowning? Not to mention huge bonuses for Riggers and anybody doing Build/Repair work. I'm not sure I'd pay 2E to get these, but they were sure something my Rigger was willing to invest in along with his new tool arm.
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suoq
post Aug 5 2011, 09:48 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Aug 5 2011, 03:11 PM) *
I see what you did there, suoq. I really think you're in the minority, though.

That may be. There's a lot of stuff in there that, as a GM, I'd have Docwagon carry in their gold copter and the vast majority of it doesn't have to be registered which is a plus, but the per use cost is about an order of magnitude too high for my personal tastes. I'm more tempted to steal and sell the stuff than to buy it and use it.
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Irion
post Aug 5 2011, 10:44 PM
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Is a capacity 2 ok for a nanohive?
Never in hell! I guess thats obvious. A rating 6 nanohive for two points of capacity is just too freaking good!

Well, lets take a look. Normally it is about 0.1 Essence is about 1 point of capacity.
So you would end up with 5+2per Rating.

How much Capacity do I get for my essence, when buying cyberparts?
Well the best deal are lower legs.
Here you get 1 point of capacity for 0.0375 Essence.
So if you do it with both legs you get 3 effectiv points of essence out of one.
(Well, the nanohive is a much better deal. A rating 6 nanohive means 2 Points of essence = 2 points of capacity. Now using one lower leg for only this you turn 0.9 points of essence into 12!)

Well, I guess the essence cost should be cheaper and the capacity cost a bit higher.
Something like:
Essence: 0.2+0.1*Raiting
Capacity: 2+1*Raiting

And while we are talking about capacity:
Don't you think the capacity of the limps should be a bit higher? Espacially the synthetic once.
(If you considert the amount of capacity you need to "use" for attributes...
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