Going past the whole, "Can it fit into a cybereye" discussion, I have to admit that I don't understand how it can fit into a cyberlimb and only cost capacity, nevermind fit into a cybereye.

Augmentation, pg 112:

Neither of these quotes make any sense as far as getting a nanohive into a cyberlimb. In all honesty, I can't find the rule that lets people put nanohives in cyberlimbs. I'm not saying it isn't in the rules somewhere, but if someone could point it out to me with a page number, I'd be grateful.

Because the Capacity rating of the nanohive is [2], it indicates that it is a component that can be installed in a cyberlimb (presumably connecting back to the arterial line somehow) without costing increased Essence. This would seem to indicate that the bulk of the mechanics that support the nanotech are being moved out of the meat and into the metal, and the remaining impact is no more then you would get from having an injection of nanites.

This trick isn't mentioned elsewhere in Augmentation, which is pretty typical of the manuals. However, a Rating 6 nanohive would cost 2 Essence if implanted and none if installed into a cyberlimb, so it is a pretty critical consideration for anyone considering nano and cyber. Is it Kosher? So far nobody has said it ain't.

No, given the description, it does not makes sense.

Easiest fix would be to just delete the [2] from the capacity listing.





-k

From a balance standpoint, excluding Neural Nanites, would any of the other nanites be worth the essence cost?

I would argue the problem is not the capacity being low, but the essence being ridiculously high. Nothing that you can do with nanohives is remotely worth that much essence.

Seems like it should be the GM's call, really. I'm a big believer in the GM keeping a firm hand on what is allowed at the table, RAW be damned. If I had to handwave it, I would just explain that while it's *technically* possible, there are only three public shops selling nanotech in the metroplex at this point, and none of those guys has any idea how to mount it in a cyberlimb. Corp labs, maybe...

Still, Dumpshock is pretty much RAW, so expect to see it defended pretty loudly.

I like limbic, but the total cost and essence always ends up giving the item the cut in Chargen. Nanotats rock, but they're not worth getting a hive for.

It is a tad odd of the vast difference in cost between an implant nanohive or a cyberlimb nanohive. It's clear that it's suppose to be a possible accessory option unless there's something in the Germen version that says otherwise. Sadly I do think the question is important since it does make or break nanite systems as a viable choice for everyone but mundane van hackers.

Off the cuff, I'll lower the essence cost to .3 regardless of rating and have it use up 5 capacity. That seems to be more in line with the general capacity to essence costs. It's now a nice thing to put in your leg and not "OMG put it in your hand instead!"

If I had a character who could make use of a nanohive without issue I'd totally devote 1 rating point (so a R2 hive or better) to having a nanotat.

Problem is that nanites have almost no use worth spending the money/essence to have the hive.

I mostly think nanoware sucks.

Every time you take damage you loose the amount of damage you take from the rating. The rating repairs itself at a point a week. This is physical or mental damage as far as I can tell. Three damage trashes almost all the legal nanotech.

So...very few character don't take damage...

And I was never including that tidit in my calculations.

I would also add the way I see a nanohive in a cyberlimb working is that it's in a lot more forgiving environment than in a metahuman body. So sure you suffer heavier losses due to kidney action, but you can run a lot more efficiently to make up for it. It doesn't also surprise me if there isn't a way for cyberlimbs to inject stuff into the arteries since they'll be right next to them and this is how stuff like biomonitors and autoinjectors work.

I think the most likely possibility, considering the extra modifications that go along with installation of the nanohive, is that it could be considered an accessory exclusively for a Cybertorso, and otherwise a regular implant. With the modifications to the body's filtration and excretory functions, the essence cost would stem, at least partially, from that area of the body.

As far as an arterial or lymphatic junction go, just about every cyberlimb involves re-routing the artery thatd used to irrigate the meat limb, which means that las bit is quite easy (the DNi is easy too).

The liver/spleen/kidney modifications sounds like they keep the nanites in the bloddstream/flush out dangerous bits of worn-out nanites or both. That part of teh system (says half of it) should not be available for essence cost reduction though the hive itself would be.

I like Learning Stimulus myself. It just never makes the cut though.

I rarely see nanites outside of Neural Nanites and those are so good that Hackers will be grabbing them even if they can install it in a cyberlimb. Same essence as Encephelon, 5,000 more, chance of hotsim addiction, three times the bonus.

The organ modifications are described as "minor." I always imagined them costing as much essence as a piercing or tattoo. Having a cyberlimb installed would likely require similar antiimmune measures to be successful, so perhaps it's even the same procedure.

Man, you people didn't read that section of Augmentation at all did you?

The following are worth their weight in gold:

• O-Cells
• Oxyrush
• Nano-symbiotes
• nantidotes
• Control Rig Booster
• Nanite Hunters "blue-goo"
• Trauma Control System (If you have the nano-biomonitor)

Seriously, KCKitsune. There are easily 3-6 nanite types you'd want in your nanohive, for any archetype, and you didn't even mention the neural amps.

If you're concerned about balance, make the Capacity cost [R] or something (maybe 1+R). A bigger hive should be bigger, esp. given the crazy Essence cost of the wet version.

The Neural amps are nice for your character's downtime, but during a 'Run those that I mentioned are golden.

I figure you want them, you can get a second hive and get the neural ones housed in there.

@Seth: Now about damage... Yeah it sucks that it does take a week for every point it is decreased (if you have a hive) for a nano system to come back, but figure this, it is only after you take 3 boxes of physical damage (Augmentation pg 108) that nano systems degrade one point.

Agreed. Every one of them is worth their weight in gold. But none of them, for me, justify the essence, nuyen cost, and annoying bookkeeping of a nanohive, especially the bookkeeping. Tracking nanite damage over time and potentially having to replace them has no appeal to me, I'd rather they worked more like bioware or cyberware or became (in SR5) their own simple subsystem like bioware is.

I see what you did there, suoq. I really think you're in the minority, though. There's no essence cost (that's the whole point), and the bookkeeping is minor at worst. There are a number of pretty serious bonuses available.

Yes, they're slightly pricey. Not the very first place you'd spend your money, but after you've got the basic 'ware, armor, and guns…

A nice way to do this would be to have 2 separate nanite listings, one for Nanite Treatments (inject and it fades, acts like other drugs), and Nanite Implantations (Nanohive + nanites, don't fade). Treatments can be essence-friendly and carried like drugs, used as needed, and subject to restrictions and legal troubles if you're found with them.

It's been a while, but aren't there treatments that grant you immunity to toxins, disease, drowning? Not to mention huge bonuses for Riggers and anybody doing Build/Repair work. I'm not sure I'd pay 2E to get these, but they were sure something my Rigger was willing to invest in along with his new tool arm.

That may be. There's a lot of stuff in there that, as a GM, I'd have Docwagon carry in their gold copter and the vast majority of it doesn't have to be registered which is a plus, but the per use cost is about an order of magnitude too high for my personal tastes. I'm more tempted to steal and sell the stuff than to buy it and use it.

Is a capacity 2 ok for a nanohive?
Never in hell! I guess thats obvious. A rating 6 nanohive for two points of capacity is just too freaking good!

Well, lets take a look. Normally it is about 0.1 Essence is about 1 point of capacity.
So you would end up with 5+2per Rating.

How much Capacity do I get for my essence, when buying cyberparts?
Well the best deal are lower legs.
Here you get 1 point of capacity for 0.0375 Essence.
So if you do it with both legs you get 3 effectiv points of essence out of one.
(Well, the nanohive is a much better deal. A rating 6 nanohive means 2 Points of essence = 2 points of capacity. Now using one lower leg for only this you turn 0.9 points of essence into 12!)

Well, I guess the essence cost should be cheaper and the capacity cost a bit higher.
Something like:
Essence: 0.2+0.1*Raiting
Capacity: 2+1*Raiting

And while we are talking about capacity:
Don't you think the capacity of the limps should be a bit higher? Espacially the synthetic once.
(If you considert the amount of capacity you need to "use" for attributes...

If i was a GM, i would rule that no matter where you get the nano-hive you always pay 0,5 essence for the organ modifications necessary for keeping the body from filtering out the nanites.
Also i would most likely change the capacity cost to be rating dependant, most likely rating*1.

You realize that you BSed that into the game, right? The nanohive's purpose is to replace nanites lost due to the body filtering them out.

Good job reading the nanohive description in the Augmentation:
"As part of nanohive implantation procedures, a host of
other minor cybernetic modifications are made to pre-existing
organs including the liver, kidneys, and spleen. These alterations
keep the body from filtering out nanites like other waste and cellular
“detritus.”"

Maybe next time you could actually read the relevant texts from the book, before being a dick and calling someone elses comment bs.

My mistake, I'd never read that text before, despite numerous readings on the nanohive when pondering getting one.

So, maybe Draco18 wasn't being a dick after all?

Well calling some ones post bs, without reading the relevant text before posting, is pretty damm dickish.

Fight nice boys, or I'll turn this discussion into something about Najda's buttery brown's

DOOO EEEEET!

I'd never be statted in a CoC game, as I'd regain sanity by making others lose theirs xD

Dude, 3/4s of this entire thread has been revolving around that book passage. It's been quoted in the thread multiple times, including the first post.





-k

In which case:

Excuse me for not recalling a passage of text I read several hours ago that I may or may not have been paying attention to at the time.

Well, actually reading the thread you're posting to might have been nice.








-k

Sometimes I take a cursory glance at a thread to see if I'm interested and not really paying attention closely until later on.
I happened to find something to "object to" and make a post before that really happened.

So right, we got some new information, now lets role with it.
Considering the fluff I guess it is a good idea to handle it like Max did.
So I guess you could but the capacity at 2 per Rating and an about 0.2 points of essence loss due to the modification
In Limb: 0.2 Essence + raiting*2 capacity
In Body: 0.2 + Raiting*0.2 Essence

Thats more than good if you look at the effects Nanoware has...


I would however increase the capacity of (at least) synthetic limps. (A Synthetic skull is worthless and a waste of essence)
The obvious limbs (with the exeption of the skull) are quite ok. Maybe raise skull and torso a bit.

As was pointed out earlier in the thread, when you take 3 boxes of damage, every single nanoware loses a point of rating... which takes a week to get back if you have a nanohive. That is a drawback big enough to offset the fact that you don't lose Essence when getting a nanohive installed in a cyberlimb.

Huh? I've run over that section several times, I'm not seeing the gold.


So I'm paying 32,000 for, basically, immunity to most diseases. That's not bad if I've got a build to take advantage of it but it general, unless I'm punching Ghouls in the face for a living, that's pretty meh.



15k to hold my breath and a bonus on Fatigue tests? Really?


I don't understand these at all. If I've been hurt, I lose nanites. So anytime I might use these, I've already lost them from damage. How the heck do these even work? Besides, 25k for +3 to natural healing isn't impressive.


Again, this is 20-30k to for, basically, immunity to poisons. Why should I be excited about this?


I can see this. You're facing a real trade-off, since you can't get the simsense booster, but it's a legitimate tradeoff.


I need to find a new way to say "unimpressive". I'd imagine these do more harm than good, since the only time I can think of a GM using cutter nanites is if you had these and reminded him they existed. Again, 16-25k to be completely underwhelmed.


Like Nanosymbiotes, if I'm making a Stabilization Check, these have already suffered serious degradation. And for that, I'm paying 22k?

Is there something I'm missing. Besides the Control Rig Boosters, why would you pay 20-30k for a hyper-specialized system against very specific threats that just don't appear that often IMO? And why would I pay for a system to stabilize or heal me when I'm hurt if getting hurt reduces the effectiveness of that system?

My impression with most of these is that they're not meant to be stored in the person using them, they're meant to be stored in the van. To me they read like incredibly expensive trauma patches for anything the GM might throw at you. Something worth stealing on your way to Prime Runner when you might need them.


-------------

Can you run that by me again? There's something I'm not understanding here.
A rating 6 nanohive costs 2 essence and has the same loss of rating with damage as a rating 6 nanohive in a cyberfoot that costs .25 essence and and extra 5000
How does taking the loss of rating in either case justify the essence saving in a single case?

Control Rig Boosters are alright if you really want to be a jumped-in rigger, and suffer from the problems of jumped-in riggers rather than being inherently bad.

Universal Nantidotes are great, because Poisons are extremely hard to defend against otherwise. If you get hit with, say, Gamma-Scopalamine+DMSO, you are probably going down without these.

O-Cells I am less sold on because I've yet to actually see the disease rules in play, but I think that it's GM-dependant. If your GM is all "now make checks against the infection you picked up wading through that sewer!" then sure, probably worth it, or if you run into ghouls ever and the GM actually uses the hilariously stupid HMHVV as written.

Neocortical Nanites are great for downtime stuff like Armorer.

Every other type of nanite is really crappy, though.

Not sure which part is confusing you, so I'll answer two possibilities.

A nanohive is odd. Nanites don't require any essence, they're just expensive. Anybody can use them, or all of them, if they have the nuyen. However, your body naturally filters them out at a rate of one rating point a week and they're too expensive to keep replacing. You might grab, say, nanantidotes or anti-rads for a specific run and a few will be in your system for the next run but that's it.

A nanohive prevents this. Your body doesn't filter them out and it will replace ones lost due to damage at 1 rating point per week. Basically, you pay extra essence and nuyen to make the nanite boost permanent.

As for the essence and degradation.
Even without the essence cost, most nanites are so expensive (hive+nanites) that they're not going to see abuse even if they cost no essence. Neural Nanites are the only no-brainer there, the others are fairly underwhelming, and if you take enough damage (like on a run) their rating (nanites, not naohive) decreases, so overall they're just...not that impressive. You pay a lot to get some very specialized boosts that probably will have degraded by the time you really need them. Maybe if you're an adept or a mage with a cyberarm and you have a ton of money to invest in a high rating nanohive and all the individual nanites it might get a little wonky but you'd be looking at well over 100k at that point and there's probably better things you could buy.

@PoliteMan
O-Cells, Antidotes and anti rads?
Because the offer a freaking immunity in most cases.

For example: A toxic radiation spirit is killing runners like bugs.
With antirad, you just smile at him.
Add to those three nanohunters and you are immune to close to every trap in the game.
(With oxyrush you also got more time if somebody is drowning you)
And if you have a GM who is really into realistic gameplay, they will help a bit against strangulation while the internal air tank won't.


On a street level no. But on streetlevel you can't abuse much anyway.
But considering the cost of getting something beta or even delta grade....

Finally:
Yes if your game consist of we shoot lead at them and they shoot lead at us, most nanites are not that usefull.


Wow, so you just get yourselve a traume damper at a decant pool to soak damage. And if you get hit for lots of damage you are in a world of hurt anyway. (The reduced systems won't be that bad)

Oh, and every single one is very hard to find...

Systems that are supposed to help with/against damage being reduced by the very damage they are supposed to help with/against is a bit dumb in my eyes too . .
At least they should not be reduced immediately . . if you patch the holes in your body up before too much of the soup runs out, then why should they have decreased in the first place?

And you pay through the nose for it.
Later on in same book (p.134) you get pharmaceuticals you get plenty of anti-viral, anti-poison goodies. You can get chem protection or chem seal for armor. There's much, much cheaper alternatives. They aren't as good, not by a long shot, but I can fit them into most builds if I want to. Unless the nanites are helping with my specialization, I'm probably going to go for the dirt cheap alternative. Especially because if I buy anti-rad nanites and the GM uses poison, or vice-versa, those nanites do nothing for me. It's not like I normally have no chemical protection, I just don't see the point in paying 30k for the super-ultra version when the cheaper alternative is literally a few hundred nuyen.

I'm struggling to think of a character that would reasonably have ware and enough cash to dump into nanites to make this a concern. Maybe a Logic tradition mage, who already has ware for Cerebral Boosters, and then pours buys a cyberlimb for armor, or just why not? After dozen runs, maybe he has enough spare nuyen to get all the nanites he could want. But even then, it still seems very meh. Why would a Sam or any mundane dump that much nuyen into ware instead of, say, Alphaware.


Lead is constant. Lead is widely used, it's the default threat. And until I start running into more poison and rads than lead, I'm certainly not spending more on anti-poison/anti-rads than I do on armor, even if it doesn't cost any essence.

@PoliteMan
Those nanites have a different mechanic behind them.

So with an Anti-rad 6 you would reduce 7 points of radiation damage to 1 single box.

And I guess after RAW (due to this mechanic) they are uneffected by any form of penetration ruling etc.


Which is quite obvious and is not offering nearly as much protection.


They are mostly useless. Unless you start stacking tons of dices. Which would be costing much more than the nanoware.

I mean universal antidotes 9 cost 22.500.
Now tell me, where do I get 27 dices to resist poisons for that kind of money? (As invisible protection!)
(Not to mention, that they do not care about penetration due to the mechanic.)

Yes, if you do not use toxins they have no effect. If you do not encounter radiation, they have no effect. If you do not encounter diseases they do not have an effect.
But if you stay with the fluff for a bit you notice that radiation, diseases and toxins are quite common in Shadowrun.

Lets put it like that: You do not use nanites if you are doing "rescue the girl from her abusive boyfriend" kind of runs.


Shutdown is one of those runs, where nanites would help a lot. (Well I know it is SR3 but you still can make a spin off)
Any run where you might be in a dangerous environment (SOX for example) or where you can't bring to much gear, is much easyier if you have those nano systems.

You may actually consider getting away by jumping in the river. If you make it look like you slipped, they will think you are dead. (If you do not drown, the chemical waste will kill you)

So yes, If a GM does use out game knowledge or the encounters are written before the run even started, it won't help.

Irion.

The most expensive combo for pharmaceuticals is Anti-Parasites and Inoculation. And that's 450 nuyen for a bonus 12 die on the test. Antibacs and antivirals are less. And Innoculation lasts forever.

But let's say resistance isn't enough, I want complete immunity. I can pick up AntiBac, Binder, or Zeta-Inferon, all for less than 1,000 nuyen apiece. Sure, they have downsides (4S) but I've got 30k in my pocket.

I mean, are you regularly making runs on biowarfare labs on top of unstable nuclear reactors with a zoo full of poisonous paranimals? The core rulebook only has rules for toxins (p.254). Diseases aren't introduced until Augmentation (p.129) and I honestly have no idea where to find the rules for radiation. It has literally never-ever come up and I've had a character defuse a nuclear bomb before.

Yes, I agree, GMs should throw poison, chemical warfare agents, and even radiation against runners. It's good to mix it up and force the characters to adjust their strategies a bit. But that's not something I'm dropping 30-100k on. That's something I'm going to find out through legwork and prepare a counter for, or if not, just suffer through it. Germs don't kill you any deader than one bullet too many, either way I gotta be a sneaky fragger and not get caught.

Emphasis on the underlined part. Those nanite systems are designed to help you survive if you get in a world of hurt, and if the point of them is to prevent being in a world of hurt, then why is getting in a world of hurt anyway (so stop bitching) is ok?

What he's trying to say is that nanite degradation effect from damage is in no way a "balancing" factor for their ability to be placed in cyberlimbs, since both the implanted version and the cyberlimb version suffer the same effect.



-k