Airburst Link Grenades, You can resist it, but you can't react to it Options

[mmmkay]

I just realized that Airburst Link Grenades afford no means of dodge or reaction. This seems ridiculous. Heavy weapons dudes are not playing around.

People talk about how direct damage spells are broken and whatnot because they rely only on willpower + counterspelling to resist and airburst link grenades are similar in that you can only resist with body+impact armor. In fact airburst link grenades are worse because they don't require LOS, you can shoot an area and affect all the people hiding behind cover. Why haven't I heard this being called broken before? Is it cause it's not too stealthy?

[LurkerOutThere]

I will have to go back and look but you can still dodge airburst grenades, they just don't do the explode at end of round and randomly teleporting thing that normal grenades do.

[Yerameyahu]

And you *have* heard this being called broken before, if you've been around. At the very least, airburst grenades are called the only way grenades can or should be used, etc. Grenades are extra deadly in a game that's already deadly, and that's even without chunky salsa.

[mmmkay]

I will have to go back and look but you can still dodge airburst grenades, they just don't do the explode at end of round and randomly teleporting thing that normal grenades do.

You can't, but go ahead and check. Post the page number if you find evidence otherwise.

And you *have* heard this being called broken before, if you've been around. At the very least, airburst grenades are called the only way grenades can or should be used, etc. Grenades are extra deadly in a game that's already deadly, and that's even without chunky salsa.

Then I must've not been around.

I don't think it's too game imbalancing I suppose, since grenades draw a lot of attention. Then thing that was really surprising to me was that I was thinking that if I had a character with high enough reactive dodge (12 reaction, reakt, all the goodies really) and a high enough perception dice pool then I'd be safe from most non-awakened threats, but apparently airburst link grenades, missiles, and rockets just don't care whether they are perceived or how high your reaction is. Yikes, better figure out how to wear lots and lots of impact armor.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure what your thinking here is on the 'can't dodge' aspect. Are you saying the targets would be Unaware? That the shooter would 'just target a spot near them'?

The Airbust link does two things: reduce scatter (not necessary eliminate), and removes the explosion delay. The ranged attack sequence isn't altered, so you're still making a Firearms test against their Ranged defense (Reaction, Dodge, etc.). Blast weapons certainly can hit even on misses, because of their radius (small rooms, not enough time to run, all of that).

The grenade rules do kinda suck, totally granted. The whole 'aim at a location or object' (aka, He Hates Furniture) is a known issue with all grenades, and not one that can't be fixed; if you try it on the street (or on a moving target), you may well get a *much* reduced blast. (If it's allowed at all: the FAQ's interpretation is that you can't target a location if your actual intent is to strike a target that could otherwise dodge.) Regardless, they're still very powerful… they're freaking grenades. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Close counts.

There was an incident in SR3 where the UBGLs a couple of our characters had basically ruined the whole run (for the GM); we're not really allowed to do that any more.

[Dakka Dakka]

The other thing is that even at point blank range, grenades cannot reliably kill joe average (for frags the target should at least wear 1 pt of armor) without chunky salsa.

[Elfenlied]

Without Airburst, missiles and grenades (fired from grenade launchers) couldn't hit jack shit... 4d6 and 3d6 scatter respectively make hitting nigh impossible.

And I suggest you slap every player who "targets the ground" with a steel-bound rulebook. On a side note, the chunky salsa rule is kinda ridiculous... I'd rather have Emotitoys and FFBA in my games than that...

[mmmkay]

Without Airburst, missiles and grenades (fired from grenade launchers) couldn't hit jack shit... 4d6 and 3d6 scatter respectively make hitting nigh impossible.

And I suggest you slap every player who "targets the ground" with a steel-bound rulebook. On a side note, the chunky salsa rule is kinda ridiculous... I'd rather have Emotitoys and FFBA in my games than that...

Oh apparently it's my week of reading rules wrong. You can't target the ground... now that I think about that I have heard people mention this before. I would like to end this thread. This thread is dead.

[Yerameyahu]

I mean, you *can*, at least under certain circumstances. It's just that doing so to deliberately remove the ability of a mobile target to dodge is something the GM shouldn't allow.

[Stahlseele]

Does Impact Detonator reduce scatter to 0?

[Yerameyahu]

Possibly. The rules are a mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If so, it does preclude the main airburst uses, like hitting people behind cover.

[suoq]

Every time I read the grenade rules, I want to test them in the next game by sending the troll in and then firing the grenade at our troll. It's a section that needs to be house ruled back to sanity.

[Stahlseele]

Possibly. The rules are a mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) If so, it does preclude the main airburst uses, like hitting people behind cover.

Well, if you impact detonate a grenade 1m away from target or if you airburst it 2d6 away from target, target gets blasted . . probably in case of airburst with 2d6 meaning at least 2m before net hits and a maximum of 12m before net hits . .
And impact meaning 1m before net hits . .
Also, if you hit somebody with the impact grenade, he is at ground 0 and does get the full damage of the grenade, instead of splash damage, right?
Basically, by then, grenades are ExEx³ Ammo, correct?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I mean, you *can*, at least under certain circumstances. It's just that doing so to deliberately remove the ability of a mobile target to dodge is something the GM shouldn't allow.

We've always ruled that if you are inside of the grenade's blast and can move, you may dodge to reduce the damage you receive according to the distance the target is from the grenade's ground zero.
Then again, we do allow net hits to increase the damage value just like any other weapon.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, Stahlseele. They simply don't seem to have bothered making the things make sense. Though, by RAW, you can't use impact detonators… even though they're standard on all (at least throwing) grenades (per RAW). So, that's fun. I just meant that the primary purpose of airburst (fluff) is to hit things behind cover, windows, etc.

I would possibly make hitting a location with an impact det grenade a Called Shot, that might help. Still, most people are simply not going to miss. I've seen the rule Brazilian_Shinobi mentions before, and whining about 'teleporting' aside, it probably is the easiest fix.

[Stahlseele]

Net Hits reduce scatter and thus DO indeed, increase damage on Target by the ammount of net hits, because it lands closer . .
But the grenade does not roll of for 10m and gets 10DV more by 10 net hits . .

@Yeameyahu(i hate typing your name, it's complicated <.<)
impact is standard on thrown grenades?
i thought only on launcher grenades?
throwm grenades usually have timer detonator, that's why they go off in the next ini pass, after 3 seconds . .

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, you can't get a 'more vital hit' with grenades, so no net hits to DV. Bad idea.

Stahlseele: No, that's why it's so funny. Launch grenades use impact by default, but that's just their setting. According to the book, all grenades come with remote, impact, and (/or) timer (p324). Or even tripwire, with a Demo test.

Anyway, by RAW, impact detonation doesn't affect scatter. Launch grenades, after all, are impact by default, yet have specific scatter rules, *and* they go off at the end of the round (p155, airburst link is the only given exception). No, the RAW doesn't make *sense*, but at least it's erring on the side of less deadly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

*twitch twitch* x.x

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Net Hits reduce scatter and thus DO indeed, increase damage on Target by the ammount of net hits, because it lands closer . .
But the grenade does not roll of for 10m and gets 10DV more by 10 net hits . .

Actually it could go either way. A grenade that lands 2m from you might just hit your leg and give you a flesh wound and by the same measure a grenade might explode 10m away from you and a shrapnel might pierce your brain killing you.

[CanRay]

Or it could set off the suitcase bomb under the table you're standing at and you walk away with burst eardrums and ripped up clothing.

[Fatum]

Every time I read the grenade rules, I want to test them in the next game by sending the troll in and then firing the grenade at our troll. It's a section that needs to be house ruled back to sanity.

Or at the very least returned to the scatter ranges from the original 4th edition core.
Just saying.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

We've always ruled that if you are inside of the grenade's blast and can move, you may dodge to reduce the damage you receive according to the distance the target is from the grenade's ground zero.
Then again, we do allow net hits to increase the damage value just like any other weapon.

Alright, this is actually RAW, isn't it? In our group we've still resisted the transition to 4A, so it might have been changed, but from what I'm reading (4th edition book) you should be doing the following:

Do opposed attack test.
Determine scatter
Reduce scatter with net hits
Apply remaining net hits to DV

If you are targetting a location you might get more net hits, but of course you can't increase DV.

There was another rule that if you shoot a grenade at someone directly, that he can actually dodge by a number of meters equal to his dodge result - I forget where that is from.

There is also the direct-fire rule from War! Well... that book is rightfully ignored in large parts, but... well, it does have impact detonation and direct hits.

Now the only thing that used to irritate me was that there is no satisfactory definition to what happens when you miss. So you fire the grenade directly, the other guy dodges. But now you still roll scatter, and it might end up a meter away from him.

[Warlordtheft]

Now the only thing that used to irritate me was that there is no satisfactory definition to what happens when you miss. So you fire the grenade directly, the other guy dodges. But now you still roll scatter, and it might end up a meter away from him.

Well, an old saying goes "for horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons, comming close counts."

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Alright, this is actually RAW, isn't it? In our group we've still resisted the transition to 4A, so it might have been changed, but from what I'm reading (4th edition book) you should be doing the following:

Do opposed attack test.
Determine scatter
Reduce scatter with net hits
Apply remaining net hits to DV

Sorry, that's our house rule.

[Yerameyahu]

Right: RAW, net hits never increase grenade DV. (Yes, getting nearer might decrease blast reduction, but that's something else.)

This has all certainly been discussed a lot before, so I'm not claiming it's anything new. There are many quirks and issues in the grenade rules, involving targeting, scatter, amount of scatter, damage, etc. There are a number of patchy rules to deal with them, usually incompatible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The fact is that grenades are very deadly, over a pretty huge area.