I just realized that Airburst Link Grenades afford no means of dodge or reaction. This seems ridiculous. Heavy weapons dudes are not playing around.

People talk about how direct damage spells are broken and whatnot because they rely only on willpower + counterspelling to resist and airburst link grenades are similar in that you can only resist with body+impact armor. In fact airburst link grenades are worse because they don't require LOS, you can shoot an area and affect all the people hiding behind cover. Why haven't I heard this being called broken before? Is it cause it's not too stealthy?

I will have to go back and look but you can still dodge airburst grenades, they just don't do the explode at end of round and randomly teleporting thing that normal grenades do.

And you *have* heard this being called broken before, if you've been around. At the very least, airburst grenades are called the only way grenades can or should be used, etc. Grenades are extra deadly in a game that's already deadly, and that's even without chunky salsa.

You can't, but go ahead and check. Post the page number if you find evidence otherwise.



Then I must've not been around.

I don't think it's too game imbalancing I suppose, since grenades draw a lot of attention. Then thing that was really surprising to me was that I was thinking that if I had a character with high enough reactive dodge (12 reaction, reakt, all the goodies really) and a high enough perception dice pool then I'd be safe from most non-awakened threats, but apparently airburst link grenades, missiles, and rockets just don't care whether they are perceived or how high your reaction is. Yikes, better figure out how to wear lots and lots of impact armor.

I'm not sure what your thinking here is on the 'can't dodge' aspect. Are you saying the targets would be Unaware? That the shooter would 'just target a spot near them'?

The Airbust link does two things: reduce scatter (not necessary eliminate), and removes the explosion delay. The ranged attack sequence isn't altered, so you're still making a Firearms test against their Ranged defense (Reaction, Dodge, etc.). Blast weapons certainly can hit even on misses, because of their radius (small rooms, not enough time to run, all of that).

The grenade rules do kinda suck, totally granted. The whole 'aim at a location or object' (aka, He Hates Furniture) is a known issue with all grenades, and not one that can't be fixed; if you try it on the street (or on a moving target), you may well get a *much* reduced blast. (If it's allowed at all: the FAQ's interpretation is that you can't target a location if your actual intent is to strike a target that could otherwise dodge.) Regardless, they're still very powerful… they're freaking grenades. Close counts.

There was an incident in SR3 where the UBGLs a couple of our characters had basically ruined the whole run (for the GM); we're not really allowed to do that any more.

The other thing is that even at point blank range, grenades cannot reliably kill joe average (for frags the target should at least wear 1 pt of armor) without chunky salsa.

Without Airburst, missiles and grenades (fired from grenade launchers) couldn't hit jack shit... 4d6 and 3d6 scatter respectively make hitting nigh impossible.

And I suggest you slap every player who "targets the ground" with a steel-bound rulebook. On a side note, the chunky salsa rule is kinda ridiculous... I'd rather have Emotitoys and FFBA in my games than that...

Oh apparently it's my week of reading rules wrong. You can't target the ground... now that I think about that I have heard people mention this before. I would like to end this thread. This thread is dead.

I mean, you *can*, at least under certain circumstances. It's just that doing so to deliberately remove the ability of a mobile target to dodge is something the GM shouldn't allow.

Does Impact Detonator reduce scatter to 0?

Possibly. The rules are a mess. If so, it does preclude the main airburst uses, like hitting people behind cover.

Every time I read the grenade rules, I want to test them in the next game by sending the troll in and then firing the grenade at our troll. It's a section that needs to be house ruled back to sanity.

Well, if you impact detonate a grenade 1m away from target or if you airburst it 2d6 away from target, target gets blasted . . probably in case of airburst with 2d6 meaning at least 2m before net hits and a maximum of 12m before net hits . .
And impact meaning 1m before net hits . .
Also, if you hit somebody with the impact grenade, he is at ground 0 and does get the full damage of the grenade, instead of splash damage, right?
Basically, by then, grenades are ExEx³ Ammo, correct?

We've always ruled that if you are inside of the grenade's blast and can move, you may dodge to reduce the damage you receive according to the distance the target is from the grenade's ground zero.
Then again, we do allow net hits to increase the damage value just like any other weapon.

Yeah, Stahlseele. They simply don't seem to have bothered making the things make sense. Though, by RAW, you can't use impact detonators… even though they're standard on all (at least throwing) grenades (per RAW). So, that's fun. I just meant that the primary purpose of airburst (fluff) is to hit things behind cover, windows, etc.

I would possibly make hitting a location with an impact det grenade a Called Shot, that might help. Still, most people are simply not going to miss. I've seen the rule Brazilian_Shinobi mentions before, and whining about 'teleporting' aside, it probably is the easiest fix.

Net Hits reduce scatter and thus DO indeed, increase damage on Target by the ammount of net hits, because it lands closer . .
But the grenade does not roll of for 10m and gets 10DV more by 10 net hits . .

@Yeameyahu(i hate typing your name, it's complicated <.<)
impact is standard on thrown grenades?
i thought only on launcher grenades?
throwm grenades usually have timer detonator, that's why they go off in the next ini pass, after 3 seconds . .

Yeah, you can't get a 'more vital hit' with grenades, so no net hits to DV. Bad idea.

Stahlseele: No, that's why it's so funny. Launch grenades use impact by default, but that's just their setting. According to the book, all grenades come with remote, impact, and (/or) timer (p324). Or even tripwire, with a Demo test.

Anyway, by RAW, impact detonation doesn't affect scatter. Launch grenades, after all, are impact by default, yet have specific scatter rules, *and* they go off at the end of the round (p155, airburst link is the only given exception). No, the RAW doesn't make *sense*, but at least it's erring on the side of less deadly.

*twitch twitch* x.x

Actually it could go either way. A grenade that lands 2m from you might just hit your leg and give you a flesh wound and by the same measure a grenade might explode 10m away from you and a shrapnel might pierce your brain killing you.

Or it could set off the suitcase bomb under the table you're standing at and you walk away with burst eardrums and ripped up clothing.

Or at the very least returned to the scatter ranges from the original 4th edition core.
Just saying.

Alright, this is actually RAW, isn't it? In our group we've still resisted the transition to 4A, so it might have been changed, but from what I'm reading (4th edition book) you should be doing the following:

Do opposed attack test.
Determine scatter
Reduce scatter with net hits
Apply remaining net hits to DV

If you are targetting a location you might get more net hits, but of course you can't increase DV.

There was another rule that if you shoot a grenade at someone directly, that he can actually dodge by a number of meters equal to his dodge result - I forget where that is from.

There is also the direct-fire rule from War! Well... that book is rightfully ignored in large parts, but... well, it does have impact detonation and direct hits.

Now the only thing that used to irritate me was that there is no satisfactory definition to what happens when you miss. So you fire the grenade directly, the other guy dodges. But now you still roll scatter, and it might end up a meter away from him.

Well, an old saying goes "for horse shoes, hand grenades, and nuclear weapons, comming close counts."

Sorry, that's our house rule.

Right: RAW, net hits never increase grenade DV. (Yes, getting nearer might decrease blast reduction, but that's something else.)

This has all certainly been discussed a lot before, so I'm not claiming it's anything new. There are many quirks and issues in the grenade rules, involving targeting, scatter, amount of scatter, damage, etc. There are a number of patchy rules to deal with them, usually incompatible. The fact is that grenades are very deadly, over a pretty huge area.

And if you modeled them like they should be, you would have a lot of dead characters.

Hell, grenades are modelled relatively fine, at least in what comes to their killing power. Now, missiles...

That's what I mean, TJ: they're very deadly over huge areas in reality. In SR, they're much weaker over much smaller areas… but still powerful.

Well, then this was changed for 4A, because 4th edition says this this:



So... whatever. As I said, there's also the bit in War, which basically is the same thing.

The rules were indeed TWEAKED (changed) in SR4A...

*shrug*

Yes you can:
AFAIK in real life you do not throw/launch grenades at a single person either but at a location you want to fill with shrapnel or whatever payload you have (gas, flashbang etc).

Why not? Because the weird FAQ said so? It makes no sense. Yes this makes grenades very dangerous. On the other hand there is a reason why they are forbidden. And no, you cannot have a license for an M22A3 at my table.
Runners who use weapons this destructive or cause enough trouble and stick around long enough for the opposition to employ them, should be able to deal with the consequences. A manaball should cause a similar if not worse reaction BTW.

No, because it's stupid. It utterly bypasses the basic ranged combat system, for no reason *at all* than to circumvent the scatter system (especially if you're also using impact triggers 'logically'). If you want that in your game, just declare that scatter doesn't exist in the first place and save the trouble. *This* would be fine, because at least it's honest. Having scatter and yet cheating to avoid it is bad.

I agree with everyone that the implementation of scatter continues to be a mess. I just don't think the way to fix a rule is to break others.

Detonate on Impact, roll more successes than their dodge... if it hits them it explodes, no scatter.

Also, a target hit directly by a grenade uses half armor.

In all my years of playing SR, I have never seen anyone use a non Impact Detonated grenade.

I've seen people use timed and airburst grenades as 'improvised' explosives.

I've had slightly better equipped gangers use timed ones "because that's what the trids show" and because it allows PCs to do the cool thing and toss their grenades back.

Well... people who throw their grenades - which used to be a perfectly viable tactic - tend to have to use non-impact detonation - that is, detonation on their next IP.

As it is... well, you can see this either way. If grenades are so good that I can't use them against my players, then they become an unbalancing element. If they are crap, the game world loses.

The current middle ground seems to be that everyone and their mother uses an airburst link, and generally runners can deal with grenade blasts out in the open, while most run of the mill opposition will take damage or die. That's fine, even if it doesn't make much sense.

And in my opinion, that is why the rules exist as they are currently written.

Um.. why would they be forced to use non impact detonation? Did the design of thrown grenades change so much that they lost the trigger spoon that activates the fuse? Grenades are wireless devices, why can't they be set to arm after the "pin" has been pulled and the wireless node in the grenade detects that it is at least X distance from the node that armed it?

Yeah, I was kind of confused about that one as well...

You know, it occurs to me that the Furniture-Hater may actually be a case of rules working as intended. AFAIK, grenades IRL are generally used to flush enemies from cover and other area-denial applications. Dumpshockers with military experience, feel free to refute me, but I don't think grenades are really supposed to be aimed at a person. That's what guns are for.

Considering the "security" of wirelss communication or matrix communication at all in Shadowrun, I would never use a grenade that is activated through my commlink.
I don't want no hackers activating all my grenades at once and pink-misting me.

This is why you flick the wireless-switch, where in contemporary grenades, you'd pull the pin.

The problem lies in ensuring no one else can remotely flick the switch. I'd still want hand-thrown grenades to have a physical safety. Maybe a grenade launcher could program grenades inside it, but a safety mechanism like in the M203-launched grenades of today, physically preventing detonation unless it has gone far enough, should still be involved. Otherwise, you're just begging for your weapons to explode in your face.

The 40mm Grenade will not arm until it's gone through a set number of rotations.

I heard about one REMF in Vietnam that had a "Dud" (It went just far enough to fall out of the launcher) for a "Trophy". He kept it in his desk drawer, opening and closing it for... Months, I think? Anyhow, once a number of rotations was done, all it took was one slammed drawer to...

It is a particularly cunning safety, unless you play with them or treat them casually. If you do that, you deserve what comes next.

As I've mentioned time and again, I grew up in a mining town. Explosives safety is ingrained into the folks there at a very young age.

Mainly because Uncle Jimmy might not be storing his dynamite properly, and juggling something that's sweating pure Nitro is never a good idea.

Farm kid here. I was driving ATVs and tractors and, most relevant, shooting snakes and turtles in our ponds when I was still young enough to think girls were icky. Learned very well that you respect ALL of your tools, because if you mishandle any of them, life or limb can go bye-bye in a hurry. It's no big deal if you know what you're doing and pay attention and don't screw around, but that MUST be how you behave with firearms, explosives, farm equipment, etc. Don't be scared, but be respectful.

Yeah, I noticed how little respect people who grew up in a city give things.

Funny city folk.

Um... that's your real life you are bringing in again. In SR, AFAIK it was always late detonation when throwing. You had to use some initiative juggling to make sure you threw last and went first next round.

Ever noticed why in movies when a good guy throws a grenade you always see bodies flying immediately, but when a bad guy throws there is always a near five-minute flurry to throw the grenade back. So... contact detonation might just be seriously un-fun.

It would all be good and well if you could make a regular dodge roll or drop prone to avoid most of the blast.

IMHO the regular 4th edition rules are perfectly fine, here.


I'm saying this with a purely theoretical take on the matter, but: Well... grenades certainly aren't designed for getting a ton of people who are out in the open - that's what artillery is for . Grenades are for clearing trenches, fox-holes, pillboxes, or rooms/bunkers/etc., and for making booby traps.

Of course, if people happen to be standing around or marching in a clump, grenades are perfectly suitable for killing them. I think a secondary goal is to stop assaults if you don't have arty available - if you get enough people to drop prone (or simply die) you can pin the assault down and basically stop it. It's a tactic that probably doesn't see much use anymore...

To me, it seems that targeting a point on the ground (or in the air, even, with airburst) should be fine, and be the default - a simple success test, successes decrease scatter.

However, anyone in the area that has any awareness of the incoming grenade should get a dodge test vs a set difficulty (lower for timed, higher for impact, highest for airburst), with every success moving them 1 or 2 meters from ground zero. If that is sufficient to get cover between them and the blast, or even out of the area entirely even better, if not, at least they are taking less damage.

This lets you lob a grenade at the feet of your shadowrunners and have the troll samurai barely move but absorb most of it via armour, whilst the agile elf adept desperately leaps behind the furniture.