Airburst Link Grenades, You can resist it, but you can't react to it Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right: RAW, net hits never increase grenade DV. (Yes, getting nearer might decrease blast reduction, but that's something else.)

This has all certainly been discussed a lot before, so I'm not claiming it's anything new. There are many quirks and issues in the grenade rules, involving targeting, scatter, amount of scatter, damage, etc. There are a number of patchy rules to deal with them, usually incompatible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The fact is that grenades are very deadly, over a pretty huge area.

And if you modeled them like they should be, you would have a lot of dead characters. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Fatum]

Hell, grenades are modelled relatively fine, at least in what comes to their killing power. Now, missiles...

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I mean, TJ: they're very deadly over huge areas in reality. In SR, they're much weaker over much smaller areas… but still powerful.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Right: RAW, net hits never increase grenade DV. (Yes, getting nearer might decrease blast reduction, but that's something else.)

This has all certainly been discussed a lot before, so I'm not claiming it's anything new. There are many quirks and issues in the grenade rules, involving targeting, scatter, amount of scatter, damage, etc. There are a number of patchy rules to deal with them, usually incompatible. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) The fact is that grenades are very deadly, over a pretty huge area.

Well, then this was changed for 4A, because 4th edition says this this:

The attacker reduces this scatter distance by 2 meters per
net hit for standard grenades or 4 meters per net hit for aerodynamic
grenades and grenade launchers. If the scatter distance is
reduced to 0 or less, the grenade hits the target exactly, and any
remaining hits are added to the DV. Otherwise, the grenade
lands at the remaining distance in the direction indicated.

So... whatever. As I said, there's also the bit in War, which basically is the same thing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, then this was changed for 4A, because 4th edition says this this:

So... whatever. As I said, there's also the bit in War, which basically is the same thing.

The rules were indeed TWEAKED (changed) in SR4A... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

If the scatter distance is reduced to 0 or less, the grenade hits the target exactly. (Note that additional hits do not add to grenade Damage Values).

*shrug*

[Dakka Dakka]

Oh apparently it's my week of reading rules wrong. You can't target the ground... now that I think about that I have heard people mention this before. I would like to end this thread. This thread is dead.

Yes you can:

To determine the grenade’s final location, first choose the intended target. Make a standard ranged attack test using the attacker’s Agility + appropriate combat skill (Throwing Weapons or Heavy Weapons), opposed by the target. If targeting a location, treat this as a Success Test instead. Apply standard ranged attack dice pool modifiers.

AFAIK in real life you do not throw/launch grenades at a single person either but at a location you want to fill with shrapnel or whatever payload you have (gas, flashbang etc).

I mean, you *can*, at least under certain circumstances. It's just that doing so to deliberately remove the ability of a mobile target to dodge is something the GM shouldn't allow.

Why not? Because the weird FAQ said so? It makes no sense. Yes this makes grenades very dangerous. On the other hand there is a reason why they are forbidden. And no, you cannot have a license for an M22A3 at my table.
Runners who use weapons this destructive or cause enough trouble and stick around long enough for the opposition to employ them, should be able to deal with the consequences. A manaball should cause a similar if not worse reaction BTW.

[Yerameyahu]

No, because it's stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It utterly bypasses the basic ranged combat system, for no reason *at all* than to circumvent the scatter system (especially if you're also using impact triggers 'logically'). If you want that in your game, just declare that scatter doesn't exist in the first place and save the trouble. *This* would be fine, because at least it's honest. Having scatter and yet cheating to avoid it is bad.

I agree with everyone that the implementation of scatter continues to be a mess. I just don't think the way to fix a rule is to break others.

[DamienKnight]

Without Airburst, missiles and grenades (fired from grenade launchers) couldn't hit jack shit... 4d6 and 3d6 scatter respectively make hitting nigh impossible.

Detonate on Impact, roll more successes than their dodge... if it hits them it explodes, no scatter.

Also, a target hit directly by a grenade uses half armor.

In all my years of playing SR, I have never seen anyone use a non Impact Detonated grenade.

[Mardrax]

In all my years of playing SR, I have never seen anyone use a non Impact Detonated grenade.

I've seen people use timed and airburst grenades as 'improvised' explosives.

I've had slightly better equipped gangers use timed ones "because that's what the trids show" and because it allows PCs to do the cool thing and toss their grenades back.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Detonate on Impact, roll more successes than their dodge... if it hits them it explodes, no scatter.

Also, a target hit directly by a grenade uses half armor.

In all my years of playing SR, I have never seen anyone use a non Impact Detonated grenade.

Well... people who throw their grenades - which used to be a perfectly viable tactic - tend to have to use non-impact detonation - that is, detonation on their next IP.

As it is... well, you can see this either way. If grenades are so good that I can't use them against my players, then they become an unbalancing element. If they are crap, the game world loses.

The current middle ground seems to be that everyone and their mother uses an airburst link, and generally runners can deal with grenade blasts out in the open, while most run of the mill opposition will take damage or die. That's fine, even if it doesn't make much sense.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well... people who throw their grenades - which used to be a perfectly viable tactic - tend to have to use non-impact detonation - that is, detonation on their next IP.

As it is... well, you can see this either way. If grenades are so good that I can't use them against my players, then they become an unbalancing element. If they are crap, the game world loses.

The current middle ground seems to be that everyone and their mother uses an airburst link, and generally runners can deal with grenade blasts out in the open, while most run of the mill opposition will take damage or die. That's fine, even if it doesn't make much sense.

And in my opinion, that is why the rules exist as they are currently written. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Miri]

Well... people who throw their grenades - which used to be a perfectly viable tactic - tend to have to use non-impact detonation - that is, detonation on their next IP.

As it is... well, you can see this either way. If grenades are so good that I can't use them against my players, then they become an unbalancing element. If they are crap, the game world loses.

The current middle ground seems to be that everyone and their mother uses an airburst link, and generally runners can deal with grenade blasts out in the open, while most run of the mill opposition will take damage or die. That's fine, even if it doesn't make much sense.

Um.. why would they be forced to use non impact detonation? Did the design of thrown grenades change so much that they lost the trigger spoon that activates the fuse? Grenades are wireless devices, why can't they be set to arm after the "pin" has been pulled and the wireless node in the grenade detects that it is at least X distance from the node that armed it?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Um.. why would they be forced to use non impact detonation? Did the design of thrown grenades change so much that they lost the trigger spoon that activates the fuse? Grenades are wireless devices, why can't they be set to arm after the "pin" has been pulled and the wireless node in the grenade detects that it is at least X distance from the node that armed it?

Yeah, I was kind of confused about that one as well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tanegar]

You know, it occurs to me that the Furniture-Hater may actually be a case of rules working as intended. AFAIK, grenades IRL are generally used to flush enemies from cover and other area-denial applications. Dumpshockers with military experience, feel free to refute me, but I don't think grenades are really supposed to be aimed at a person. That's what guns are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Um.. why would they be forced to use non impact detonation? Did the design of thrown grenades change so much that they lost the trigger spoon that activates the fuse? Grenades are wireless devices, why can't they be set to arm after the "pin" has been pulled and the wireless node in the grenade detects that it is at least X distance from the node that armed it?

Considering the "security" of wirelss communication or matrix communication at all in Shadowrun, I would never use a grenade that is activated through my commlink.
I don't want no hackers activating all my grenades at once and pink-misting me.

[Mardrax]

I don't want no hackers activating all my grenades at once and pink-misting me.

This is why you flick the wireless-switch, where in contemporary grenades, you'd pull the pin.

[Blitz66]

This is why you flick the wireless-switch, where in contemporary grenades, you'd pull the pin.

The problem lies in ensuring no one else can remotely flick the switch. I'd still want hand-thrown grenades to have a physical safety. Maybe a grenade launcher could program grenades inside it, but a safety mechanism like in the M203-launched grenades of today, physically preventing detonation unless it has gone far enough, should still be involved. Otherwise, you're just begging for your weapons to explode in your face.

[CanRay]

The 40mm Grenade will not arm until it's gone through a set number of rotations.

I heard about one REMF in Vietnam that had a "Dud" (It went just far enough to fall out of the launcher) for a "Trophy". He kept it in his desk drawer, opening and closing it for... Months, I think? Anyhow, once a number of rotations was done, all it took was one slammed drawer to...

[Blitz66]

The 40mm Grenade will not arm until it's gone through a set number of rotations.

I heard about one REMF in Vietnam that had a "Dud" (It went just far enough to fall out of the launcher) for a "Trophy". He kept it in his desk drawer, opening and closing it for... Months, I think? Anyhow, once a number of rotations was done, all it took was one slammed drawer to...

It is a particularly cunning safety, unless you play with them or treat them casually. If you do that, you deserve what comes next.

[CanRay]

As I've mentioned time and again, I grew up in a mining town. Explosives safety is ingrained into the folks there at a very young age.

Mainly because Uncle Jimmy might not be storing his dynamite properly, and juggling something that's sweating pure Nitro is never a good idea.

[Blitz66]

As I've mentioned time and again, I grew up in a mining town. Explosives safety is ingrained into the folks there at a very young age.

Mainly because Uncle Jimmy might not be storing his dynamite properly, and juggling something that's sweating pure Nitro is never a good idea.

Farm kid here. I was driving ATVs and tractors and, most relevant, shooting snakes and turtles in our ponds when I was still young enough to think girls were icky. Learned very well that you respect ALL of your tools, because if you mishandle any of them, life or limb can go bye-bye in a hurry. It's no big deal if you know what you're doing and pay attention and don't screw around, but that MUST be how you behave with firearms, explosives, farm equipment, etc. Don't be scared, but be respectful.

[CanRay]

Yeah, I noticed how little respect people who grew up in a city give things.

Funny city folk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Um.. why would they be forced to use non impact detonation? Did the design of thrown grenades change so much that they lost the trigger spoon that activates the fuse? Grenades are wireless devices, why can't they be set to arm after the "pin" has been pulled and the wireless node in the grenade detects that it is at least X distance from the node that armed it?

Um... that's your real life you are bringing in again. In SR, AFAIK it was always late detonation when throwing. You had to use some initiative juggling to make sure you threw last and went first next round.

Ever noticed why in movies when a good guy throws a grenade you always see bodies flying immediately, but when a bad guy throws there is always a near five-minute flurry to throw the grenade back. So... contact detonation might just be seriously un-fun.

It would all be good and well if you could make a regular dodge roll or drop prone to avoid most of the blast.

IMHO the regular 4th edition rules are perfectly fine, here.

You know, it occurs to me that the Furniture-Hater may actually be a case of rules working as intended. AFAIK, grenades IRL are generally used to flush enemies from cover and other area-denial applications. Dumpshockers with military experience, feel free to refute me, but I don't think grenades are really supposed to be aimed at a person. That's what guns are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

I'm saying this with a purely theoretical take on the matter, but: Well... grenades certainly aren't designed for getting a ton of people who are out in the open - that's what artillery is for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . Grenades are for clearing trenches, fox-holes, pillboxes, or rooms/bunkers/etc., and for making booby traps.

Of course, if people happen to be standing around or marching in a clump, grenades are perfectly suitable for killing them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think a secondary goal is to stop assaults if you don't have arty available - if you get enough people to drop prone (or simply die) you can pin the assault down and basically stop it. It's a tactic that probably doesn't see much use anymore...

[Mayhem_2006]

To me, it seems that targeting a point on the ground (or in the air, even, with airburst) should be fine, and be the default - a simple success test, successes decrease scatter.

However, anyone in the area that has any awareness of the incoming grenade should get a dodge test vs a set difficulty (lower for timed, higher for impact, highest for airburst), with every success moving them 1 or 2 meters from ground zero. If that is sufficient to get cover between them and the blast, or even out of the area entirely even better, if not, at least they are taking less damage.

This lets you lob a grenade at the feet of your shadowrunners and have the troll samurai barely move but absorb most of it via armour, whilst the agile elf adept desperately leaps behind the furniture.