Health deterioration, House rule idea Options

[Aerospider]

It has struck me that a character can suffer further damage by simply resting (critical glitch on the healing roll) but can keep 'running to his heart's content without his injuries being aggravated by all the exertion.

I'd like to fix this, so how does the following house rule sound?

For each full day not devoted entirely to rest an injured character must make an Edge test with a threshold of the sum of his physical and stun wound modifiers. Failure incurs an extra box of damage to each track that contributed to the threshold. This extra damage is not considered a new injury for the purposes of first aid or magical healing.

Example:

A samurai and a shaman have just dispatched a security team but got hurt in the process. The samurai took 7 boxes of physical and 2 stun whilst the shaman took 3 physical and 5 stun. They press on with the run and are still going 24 hours later. They both roll an Edge (2) test and both fail. The samurai gains 1 physical damage but no more stun whilst the shaman gains 1 physical and 1 stun. Had the shaman rested for an hour or two to drop his stun down to 2 he'd have only had a threshold of 1 but would still have had to make the roll.

[Aerospider]

Note - I do not allow natural sleep to be used for healing stun. If one of my players spends the night recovering his stun damage he runs the risk of sleep deprivation if he doesn't get his normal sleep in as well. YMMV

[HunterHerne]

I like the premise, as I am a big fan of gritty game styles, but I don't know about the execution. Part of it, is that you might be over simplifying. According to the Fatigue Damage rules (SR4A 164), a character jogging at his base running rate can do so for (Body+ hits on running test) x 2 minutes, and starts taking fatigue damage (treated as stun, max 6 boxes). After taking 6 boxes, characters make a Body+ Willpower (2) test, and if they fail automatically stop, are exhausted, and may not take part in strenuous activity until they have rested. Damage modifiers apply to both these tests. If they glitch, I wouldn't balk at an additional box of damage. And if they crit glitch, I wouldn't be surprised if you make them roll an Edge test or break something (or something less sever if they pass the edge test).

[Summerstorm]

Hm... edge-test with threshold wound modifier... that is... insane. Most people can't make that.

I mean just a normal dude who had a bit stun-damage from sleep deprivation Which you don't let them regenerate through sleep will DIE -well ok, will fall over exhausted- after ten days or so, while leading a normal life Work/sleep, having afternoon activities. Just because he doesn't sit down and stares at the wall for 2 hours?

Well, i like the whole deterioting effect - Also as a greater effect: I like my Move-by-Wire, Reflex Boosters, Brain-altering cyberware etc. to RUIN a man long-term. And the healing times WAY lower. Someone totally shot up shouldn't be up and running after two days bedrest.

And i also agree that bad wounds should get worse over time. And the WORST wounds should get worse in even a small amount of time. In a game i designed, a hyper-realistic modern-day system i had THREE condition-monitors because of that. Bloodvolume, Shock and Trauma. As well as wound-effects per organs/limbs.

But i wouldn't like to have all that in my shadowrun. Just have the GM make judgement calls on that without rules... worked for me so far.

[Yerameyahu]

Isn't sleep healing stun the whole point?

[HunterHerne]

Isn't sleep healing stun the whole point?

That's the general idea I had. I will likely always allow it, but I already use gritty rules, and am not afraid to allow wounds get worse with even minor glitching (though "worse" is usually a doubled wound modifier, or doubled healing interval. Even so, with only body or will... and negatives from environment...)

[Tanegar]

Isn't sleep healing stun the whole point?

This. When I read, "I do not allow natural sleep to be used for healing stun" I literally thought "LOLwut?" If sleep doesn't heal stun damage, what the hell does?

[Aerospider]

Isn't sleep healing stun the whole point?

Well I wouldn't shout down that interpretation, but I don't really like the idea of 7-8 free healing rolls per day. Stun damage can represent much more serious injuries than a bit of a headache and with that many rolls you could clear a full damage track without changing your routine at all. Even the slower healing options don't make it very interesting.

[Aerospider]

This. When I read, "I do not allow natural sleep to be used for healing stun" I literally thought "LOLwut?" If sleep doesn't heal stun damage, what the hell does?

Extra sleep.
Maybe I should have clarified - in my game sleep can stave off sleep deprivation and it can heal stun, but not both simultaneously.

[Yerameyahu]

I… guess. Stun damage is *supposed* to heal fast, that's why it's stun. That's why it's so easy to inflict, that's why we bother with Physical damage. *shrug*

[Tanegar]

And the purpose of that is... what, exactly? Sorry, but this smacks of Fake Difficulty to me: making the game harder for the sake of making the game harder, or (worse) for the sake of punishing the players, rather than because it adds anything to the experience other than frustration.

[Aerospider]

Hm... edge-test with threshold wound modifier... that is... insane. Most people can't make that.

Well, damage tracks with less than three boxes don't factor in at all and it's only one extra box per day.
Maybe it would work better to roll for physical and stun tracks separately so the thresholds don't stack.

Ultimately I'm looking for a way to make it hurt for, say, a guy with two bullets in him to carry on as though nothing had happened. Putting a time factor on the need for healing is also attractive to me. I just don't know what's likely to be too much in terms of both penalty and complexity.

[Tanegar]

A guy with two bullets in him can't carry on as though nothing happened, because he has penalties from those wounds. The least amount of damage a single gunshot can inflict, before the soak roll, is 5P (a hold-out with one net hit). If the victim manages to soak that down to less than 3P (entirely possible), it is assumed that he suffered a grazing or otherwise non-impairing wound.

Basically, I think you're trying to fix something that isn't broken. If a character gets hit badly enough to impair him, that's reflected with wound penalties. If he doesn't get hit badly enough to impair him, why inflict artificial penalties?

[CanRay]

Sorry, the idea at the start of this thread made me think of something: "Don't those bulletholes hurt?" "Nah, I'll just walk it off." "They're in your legs." "I'll crawl it off."

[HunterHerne]

Sorry, the idea at the start of this thread made me think of something: "Don't those bulletholes hurt?" "Nah, I'll just walk it off." "They're in your legs." "I'll crawl it off."

Haha. Not what I thought, but not a bad one.

[Aerospider]

And the purpose of that is... what, exactly? Sorry, but this smacks of Fake Difficulty to me: making the game harder for the sake of making the game harder, or (worse) for the sake of punishing the players, rather than because it adds anything to the experience other than frustration.

That's a fair comment, not that I agree. Imagine someone kicking the crap out of you until you fall unconscious. When you awake 8 hours later would you expect to feel like you do on any other morning? I would venture that you'd sleep longer than usual and awake still feeling somewhat sore.

For the player the inconvenience can be relatively minor (sleeping for twice as long will most often be quite sufficient) and I think it's because it's minor that you got the fake difficulty impression, if you don't mind me conjecturing so.

[Aerospider]

A guy with two bullets in him can't carry on as though nothing happened, because he has penalties from those wounds. The least amount of damage a single gunshot can inflict, before the soak roll, is 5P (a hold-out with one net hit). If the victim manages to soak that down to less than 3P (entirely possible), it is assumed that he suffered a grazing or otherwise non-impairing wound.

Basically, I think you're trying to fix something that isn't broken. If a character gets hit badly enough to impair him, that's reflected with wound penalties. If he doesn't get hit badly enough to impair him, why inflict artificial penalties?

Ah no, I meant more like how a guy with bullet wounds would normally put everything on hold until he got himself sorted instead of carrying on and risking the wounds deteriorating further.

I do want to hear that RAW's not broken (if people think it) so thanks. My motivation is to create a sense of "Crap, if I don't take care of this I'm in trouble" or "Hey guys, I dunno how long the mage can keep this sh*t up".

[HunterHerne]

That's a fair comment, not that I agree. Imagine someone kicking the crap out of you until you fall unconscious. When you awake 8 hours later would you expect to feel like you do on any other morning? I would venture that you'd sleep longer than usual and awake still feeling somewhat sore.

For the player the inconvenience can be relatively minor (sleeping for twice as long will most often be quite sufficient) and I think it's because it's minor that you got the fake difficulty impression, if you don't mind me conjecturing so.

I agree with you, by the standard rules. But, if I have a guy in my games who was beaten unconcious from only stun damage, with Will 3 and Body 3, they wouldn't get a healing test. In fact, if they were beaten unconcious on the street, that's another -2, so they need at least a med kit rating 3, some kind of fast healing, medicinal aid, or a combination of the above to even try a standard test. Or, they could spend edge and longshot. In this situation, I might even cause more trouble, like physical damage the longer they are exposed (either one box every body hours, or maybe a test using whatever the absolute negative value to the test is.) until they longshot enough times to heal somewhat well, or burn an edge to survive.

Edit: Each hour I would roll an edge test to see if someone notices (threshold dependant on where he gets beaten at), and calls for aid.

[Aerospider]

I… guess. Stun damage is *supposed* to heal fast, that's why it's stun. That's why it's so easy to inflict, that's why we bother with Physical damage. *shrug*

I've always thought of stun and physical injuries having a little overlap, whereby things like contusions and minor tissue damage can fall in either camp with the abstracted damage track system separating them according to how long they'll take to heal. Like, a club and a fist can cause very similar types of injuries but you get over the effects of one rather quicker than the other. But maybe that's just me.

[HunterHerne]

I've always thought of stun and physical injuries having a little overlap, whereby things like contusions and minor tissue damage can fall in either camp with the abstracted damage track system separating them according to how long they'll take to heal. Like, a club and a fist can cause very similar types of injuries but you get over the effects of one rather quicker than the other. But maybe that's just me.

I don't see where your argument counters his statement in any way. In fact, I see both statements getting along quite nicely.

[Tanegar]

Imagine someone kicking the crap out of you until you fall unconscious. When you awake 8 hours later would you expect to feel like you do on any other morning? I would venture that you'd sleep longer than usual and awake still feeling somewhat sore.

This is one of those situations where real-reality and game-reality don't mesh. In real life, it's completely possible to beat a person to death with your bare hands, without necessarily rendering them unconscious beforehand. In Shadowrun, it isn't. You must fill up your victim's Stun track before unarmed damage starts carrying over to Physical. It's one of those Acceptable Break from Reality thingies.

Also, minor nitpick: if he's kicking me, I assume he's wearing boots, or at least shoes of some kind. Hard surfaces (like hardliner gloves, Arsenal, p. 39) convert unarmed damage from Stun to Physical.

[Aerospider]

Also, minor nitpick: if he's kicking me, I assume he's wearing boots, or at least shoes of some kind. Hard surfaces (like hardliner gloves, Arsenal, p. 39) convert unarmed damage from Stun to Physical.

I don't know much about densiplast, but I wouldn't rule that the leather and rubber that goes into footwear has the same effect. The kick maneuver doesn't mention it either.

[HunterHerne]

This is one of those situations where real-reality and game-reality don't mesh. In real life, it's completely possible to beat a person to death with your bare hands, without necessarily rendering them unconscious beforehand. In Shadowrun, it isn't. You must fill up your victim's Stun track before unarmed damage starts carrying over to Physical. It's one of those Acceptable Break from Reality thingies.

Also, minor nitpick: if he's kicking me, I assume he's wearing boots, or at least shoes of some kind. Hard surfaces (like hardliner gloves, Arsenal, p. 39) convert unarmed damage from Stun to Physical.

On beating someone to death w/o unconcious: Yes, it is possible, but how often does it happen, especially from someone not trained to deal lethal blows? (I would consider a drunken brawl where someone gets on top of someone and beats him to death to follow the concious-unconcious-dead line)

For the outliers, there are several in-game ways to have it done: If neither are wearing armour, glitches and crit glitches on the damage resistance test could, by the right GM, convert to Physical damage. Internal bleeding could result from an afformentioned glitch, or from the Severe Wounds rules (which I use in my games). In fact, these two rules cover just about everything that could happen. But, throw some armour on, and they get a lot less likely.

[Aerospider]

This is one of those situations where real-reality and game-reality don't mesh. In real life, it's completely possible to beat a person to death with your bare hands, without necessarily rendering them unconscious beforehand. In Shadowrun, it isn't. You must fill up your victim's Stun track before unarmed damage starts carrying over to Physical. It's one of those Acceptable Break from Reality thingies.

I'm quite happy for acceptable breaks from reality things per se, but they don't have to be accepted if there is an acceptable alternative too.

Also, the Severe Wounds optional rules in Augmentation do allow for killing a guy with your bare hands without filling the stun track at all. Specifically a critical glitch on the damage resistance test and possibly from heavy damage.

[Tanegar]

I'm quite happy for acceptable breaks from reality things per se, but they don't have to be accepted if there is an acceptable desirable alternative too.

Fixed that for you. You never have articulated precisely why this houserule of yours is supposed to be desirable. What does it add, other than making an already offense-biased game even more offense-biased?