Magic and Ware Questions, Ghouls, Cybereyes and Magic Qualities Options

[Bushw4cker]

If a Ghoul gets cybereyes, does their dual-nature power now include astral vision, since they paid for the eyes with essence?
Could a ghoul with datajack, use commlink and contacts to see? or would the ghoul have to have cybereyes as well?
Can a character have cyberware/bioware and have astral sight or spell/spirit knack quality?

[Yerameyahu]

The ghoul would have to have raised their Magic rating, or the cybereyes would instantly Burn them Out (no longer Dual). I don't understand your question though: all ghouls are Dual Natured and *have* astral vision by default. Astral vision is an inextricable part of Dual Nature (it's practically the only defining characteristic, in fact).

Yes, sensors work fine, though the precise interaction between senses/sensors is not clearly laid out in the rules. Some GMs could require sensor tests for everything, I suppose.

IIRC, knacks/astral sight qualities can't have their Magic raised from 1, so… no. Any Essence loss would burn them out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) *If* I recalled correctly.

[Dakka Dakka]

Correction. There is no Astral Vision. There is only Astral Perception. It is an additional sense. Only for us mundanes its sensations are mostly described as visual sensation, because the visual sense is the most important for us.
Whether the ghoul has or had physical vision is irrelevant for Astral Perception. As Yerameyahu correctly pointed out any Essence loss would remove the dual-natured quality form the ghoul. This actually is a very good idea for any otherwise non-awakened ghoul. It removes the threat from the astral plane.

@Astral Sight: Only if the GM gave the character that quality through Latent Awakening, which I would consider a jerk move.

[Yerameyahu]

You're right. We do call it 'Astral Sight' or 'astral vision', but those aren't accurate. (Astral Sight is the RAW name of the knack, though, yes?)

[HunterHerne]

I recall there being a sidebar about knacks and astral sight, aout allowing characters to raise their magic to allow for the use of them, even cybered up. Personally, i have no problem with it, they are adequately restricted in my opinion, otherwise. Why spend 25 BP to be able to cast one force 1-6 spell, which will probably give the Street Sam more damage then just opening fire or sneaking past the opponent anyway?

[noonesshowmonkey]

If the cyber eyes sent raw sense data as transmitted through lenses just as the naked, mark 1 eye ball does, then yes. If the cyber eye takes in stimulus as a human eye would (ie a lens) and then at any point digitizes it, then the eye can not perceive astrally. The sensors in a stock cybereye have no way of receiving or processing astral data that I know of. You'd lose the visual portion of astral perception.

[Tanegar]

If the cyber eyes sent raw sense data as transmitted through lenses just as the naked, mark 1 eye ball does, then yes. If the cyber eye takes in stimulus as a human eye would (ie a lens) and then at any point digitizes it, then the eye can not perceive astrally. The sensors in a stock cybereye have no way of receiving or processing astral data that I know of. You'd lose the visual portion of astral perception.

Except there is no "visual portion" of astral perception.

Astral perception is a psychic sense that is not linked to the character's physical sight. A blind magician can still magically perceive the astral plane and the creatures and auras within. Likewise, deaf magicians can "hear" in astral space.

[Yerameyahu]

Astral perception doesn't come from your *eyes* anyway. Neither does it come through the air. Cybereyes are unrelated.

[CanRay]

You just need a magic rating to astrally perceive.

Magicians with cybereyes can do it all the time.

[noonesshowmonkey]

Fair enough.

[Mardrax]

Just for spelling it out: note that a Ghoul's blindness doesn't apply to Astral Perception. They can 'see' you fine on the astral. Unless you do the Solid Snake.

[Elfenlied]

The ghoul would have to have raised their Magic rating, or the cybereyes would instantly Burn them Out (no longer Dual). I don't understand your question though: all ghouls are Dual Natured and *have* astral vision by default.

Do you have a page reference where it says that they actually loose dual natured upon burning out? It would make Ghouls a lot more playable.

[Udoshi]

Do you have a page reference where it says that they actually loose dual natured upon burning out? It would make Ghouls a lot more playable.

Sure do. Emphasis mine

Magic and Essence:
Starting Infected characters start with Essence 5 and Magic 1
during character generation. The Infected may increase their Magic
attribute with BP or Karma as any other attribute to a maximum
of 5 (+ initiate grade). Magic is used for any tests involving the
Infected’s innate powers. If an Infected character’s Magic attribute
is reduced to 0 (temporarily or permanently), it loses the use of all
its powers except Natural Weapon and Enhanced Senses, if any.

Note that ghoul sams have less essence to play with than other archetypes, and some restrictions on the type of ware they can take, but make up for it with good stat boosts.
But yeah. If you want to play a ghoul, and want to dodge the Dual Natured problem, just get a datajack or some cybereyes.
A ghoul mage, on the other hand will not have as much magic as another character.


If you wanted to get no-essence sight, you could pretty easily hook up Trodes, a Sim Module to pipe the stream, and goggles with an Image Link together.

[Elfenlied]

Does Dual Natured actually count as a "power"?

[Stahlseele]

In the case of non magicians, it's actually more of a FLAW . .
Otherwise, it means you can do everything you can do with your normal eyes without most vision modifiers.
and you do not have the -2 dice because you are astrally perceiving . .

[KarmaInferno]

Does Dual Natured actually count as a "power"?

Why wouldn't it be?

Page 294, SR4A





-k

[Elfenlied]

Just sounded too good to be true. You loose all drawbacks associated with ghouls (dual natured & infection), and can even get some BP on top of it (infertile infected).

[Udoshi]

In the case of non magicians, it's actually more of a FLAW . .

Actually, the main benefit for being dual natured comes into play if you're a magician or a mystic adept.

Being able to lay down Counterspelling on the physical and astral planes at once, without any penalty.

That's about the only upside, though. Getting rid of it means you can't be astral jetfightered by spirits and mages.

[Sephiroth]

That's about the only upside, though. Getting rid of it means you can't be astral jetfightered by spirits and mages.

Being a dual natured ghoul isn't quite as bad as most people make it out to be, though. It can be dealt with without burning out and losing the dual natured power. Just make a ghoul PC as an adept or mystic adept with Great Leap and Distance Strike. Ghouls can make scarily effective melee fighters with their attribute boosts.

[HunterHerne]

Being a dual natured ghoul isn't quite as bad as most people make it out to be, though. It can be dealt with without burning out and losing the dual natured power. Just make a ghoul PC as an adept or mystic adept with Great Leap and Distance Strike. Ghouls can make scarily effective melee fighters with their attribute boosts.

For truly unmatched physical power, try a ghoul Troll. Talk about the worst thing to meet in a dark alley...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

For truly unmatched physical power, try a ghoul Troll. Talk about the worst thing to meet in a dark alley...

A really hungry Lofwir, specially after you've been pranked by your friends and is completely covered in tomato sauce.

[HunterHerne]

A really hungry Lofwir, specially after you've been pranked by your friends and is completely covered in tomato sauce.

Touché

[CanRay]

Actually, being German, wouldn't he rather a nice bier marinade?

[Tanegar]

Hmm. Runnerwurst und bier. I wonder how big a mug you'd need to hold enough beer to satisfy Lofwyr.

[Elfenlied]

Hmm. Runnerwurst und bier. I wonder how big a mug you'd need to hold enough beer to satisfy Lofwyr.

how big a mug you'd need to hold enough beer to satisfy Lofwyr.

enough beer

Does not compute