Free Spirit Face, BP or German Karmagen Options

[Ramaloke]

Is it possible to make a decent free spirit face? How would you go about it?

This is the best I've got so far:

CODE

Metatype: Free Spirit (250 Karma)

Abilities (370 Karma)
B A R S C I L W F Edg Ess
2 2 2 2 6 3 3 4 6  7   6

Qualities: (-30 Karma)
+ Magician (free)
+ Lucky
- ???

Active Skills (137 Karma)
Athletics Group 1
Influence Group 4
Intimidation 2
Perception 2
Assensing 2
Infiltration 1
Spellcasting 3
Counterspelling 3
Unarmed Combat 3
Dodge 3

Knowledge & Language Skills (8 Karma)
English N
Magic Background 2
Magical Threats 2

Spells (15 Karma)
Increase Attribute [Charisma]
Heal
Manabolt

Spirit Powers
Mutable Form
Realistic Form
Aura Masking
Guard
Influence

With a Sustained Improved Ability [Charisma] he has 13 Dice for Influence Group, 11 Dice for Intimidation, 15 Dice for Influence Power, and an extra 7 dice (plus exploding) whenever I use edge.

[Irion]

Lucky is a waste of Karma. You pay 40 Karma for something you will get for free the second you raise your force. Your force is very important for a lot of things, so it stands to reason it will always be higher than your edge.

Increase Attribute: Here is always the question how it is working. (ask if you may change it to a mana spell, to make things simple)
I would really increase your spellcasting pool. As a free spirit you should have at least 4 dices to counterspells stuff.
Drop melee if you have to, a stunbolt is even more effective.

[Elfenlied]

Choose Karmagen if you want to initiate, otherwise BP.

[UmaroVI]

For a free spirit? No way, you definitely want Karmagen. 250/750 karma is much more doable than 250/400 bp.

I can actually see that Lucky being worth it, and not having it starts you out missing at least one really important ability. I would cut Unarmed Combat and just rely on dodge+spells, scrape up for more Spellcasting, and get more/better spells.

Manabolt is a bad idea. It does P damage, but does not work on the things you really need to deal P damage to, ie, drones and vehicles. I would instead pick up Stunbolt and a single-target elemental P-damage spell.

As a side note, the Fear power would be great for you, but sadly you can't really get it at chargen without giving up something better. I would actually consider losing the Guard power, saving the .5 PP, and getting Fear as soon as you initiate.

You really should just try to have more spells in general. 3 spells is rather sad. Some examples of good ones that you might find useful in a lot of situations: Mind Probe, Alter Memory, Trid Phantasm, Astral Clairvoyance, Astral Window... just to give you some ideas.

[Udoshi]

One of my friends runs a free spirit face. They make -fantastic- impersonators, due to mutable form and aura masking.

You're missing the typical face qualities - First Impression is excellent, and trustworthy is almost necessary due to a spirit's low charisma.(compared to an elf face)

Check out the social modifiers table, its a good way to get extra dice, Like through Control Emotions(the spell)

[Irion]

@UmaroVI
Yes, lucky helps.
But you are paying 40 Karma for it. Thats a lot.
(As a matter of fact, thats about 1 initiation and half of raising magic.)
So yes, you do not get the influance power, but you have 40+25=75 more Karma to throw around.

[UmaroVI]

Actually, Irion is right. I was thinking it might be OK just because you'd be left without some abilities you really really want. But I forgot two important things.

1) You can't hardcap more than one stat during Karmagen. Your hardcap is going to be Force, obviously.

2) Initating is waaaay more efficient than raising edge.

Keep yourself at Force 6, drop Edge to 5, drop Charisma to 5 (since you cannot raise them higher), drop Lucky, grab Arcana, join a magical group, and initiate your socks off. Try to get Fear, which will allow you to ditch Stunbolt (because Fear is an even harder way to own living opponents, and most people can do jack about it). Then maybe get more Spirit Pacts that you can make with your pals, like Drain, Magic, and Power.

[Irion]

And if you want to really be annoying:
Increase willpower and use meditation+group to get your initiaton grade.
The first one might be a bitch, but later on you are off fine.

[Ramaloke]

Ok, how is this?

CODE

Metatype: Free Spirit (250 Karma)

Abilities (300 Karma)
B A R S C I L W F Edg Ess
2 2 2 2 5 3 3 5 6  5   6

Qualities (Total -20 Karma)
+ Magician (Free)
+ First Impression (10 Karma)
+ Trusworthiness (40 Karma)
- Something (-70 Karma)

Active Skills (Total 157 Karma)
Influence Group 4 (55 Karma)
Athletics Group 1 (10 Karma)
Intimidation 3 (12 Karma)
Infiltration 1 (4 Karma)
Assensing 2 (8 Karma)
Perception 2 (8 Karma)
Spellcasting 4 (22 Karma)
Counterspelling 4 (22 Karma)
Dodge 2 (8 Karma)
Arcana 2 (8 Karma)

Knowledge & Language Skills (Total 23 Karma)
English N
Magical Background 3 (7 Karma)
Magical Threats 2 (4 Karma)
Literature 2 (4 Karma)
History 2 (4 Karma)
Spirits 2 (4 Karma)

Spells (Total 40 Karma)
Increase Attribute [Charisma] (5 Karma)
Control Thoughts (5 Karma)
Control Emotions (5 Karma)
Influence (5 Karma)
Lightning Bolt (5 Karma)
Manabolt (5 Karma)
Stunball (5 Karma)
Heal (5 Karma)

Spirit Powers
Mutable Form
Realistic Form
Aura Masking
Guard

[UmaroVI]

The Influence spell is like the Influence power, but worse in every way - I would hold out for the power.

I'm really not a fan of Manabolt - I would rather have something useful for non-pew-pew or a better pew-pew spell.

Why do you have Athletics? You can go astral and fly around, and you have Dodge for dodging.

Largely looks good though.

[Udoshi]

@UmaroVI
Yes, lucky helps.
But you are paying 40 Karma for it. Thats a lot.
(As a matter of fact, thats about 1 initiation and half of raising magic.)
So yes, you do not get the influance power, but you have 40+25=75 more Karma to throw around.

Here's why lucky is bad.
It costs 20 bp.
which comes out to 40 karma, and it counts against your limit of qualities which can be filled with more useful things.
it raises the -max- on your edge by 1
you still have to pay to raise your edge, because lucky does not give you a free point
raising your edge to 7 costs 35 more karma
there's an inherent problem with this, and that is 'what happens to your edge attribute value when you raise your force to 7? what is its new value? Is it overwritten? does it get bumped up by 1?'
speaking of raising your force to 7, it costs 35 karma, same as raising your edge to 7
initiating once is 13 karma, which is 7 karma cheaper than Lucky, and doesn't count against your quality limits - and because you're a free spirit, neither does Magician.

So just start at force 7 if you want extra edge.

However, Lightning Reflexes IS a fantastic choice for a spirit who wants to fight a lot. They have hardly any ways to raise that attribute, and 30 karma for two flat points of stat are an amazing deal in karmagen.

Regarding spells: Take Stunbolt - its a Mana spell, so it works on the astral. This is important, because it gives you a pretty big edge against other astral threats.
You want to pair it out with a Physical type Physical damage spell to pose a threat on the physical plane. Powerbolt is good for this. Be wary of getting Indirect combat spells, because those get treated like ranged attacks, and can thus be dodged. Spirits have a harder time matching sammies and adepts in raw dice pool - those archetypes can easily get attributes above 9, skills above 6, and easy access to ware to give dice pool bonuses and cancel out negative penalties, such as from vision. Spirits don't have easy access to those things, so you need to pick your loadout with a little more discretion

[UmaroVI]

You want to pair it out with a Physical type Physical damage spell to pose a threat on the physical plane. Powerbolt is good for this. Be wary of getting Indirect combat spells, because those get treated like ranged attacks, and can thus be dodged. Spirits have a harder time matching sammies and adepts in raw dice pool - those archetypes can easily get attributes above 9, skills above 6, and easy access to ware to give dice pool bonuses and cancel out negative penalties, such as from vision. Spirits don't have easy access to those things, so you need to pick your loadout with a little more discretion

Everything else I agree with, but I disagree with your analysis of Powerbolt vs. Indirect spells.

If you are fighting someone on the physical plane, Stunbolt is fine. If you want to kill someone, you can Stunbolt them and then shoot them in the head. When stunbolt is not fine is when you are fighting things that do not take Stun damage - 95% of which are drones and vehicles, and 5% of which are people with Pain Editors or Adrenaline Pumps.

So you really should be analyzing "would I rather have Powerbolt or Lightning Bolt against a drone/vehicle," and the answer is that if you are really, REALLY powerful, Powerbolt starts getting better because you just go up against a flat 5 OR, no matter how much armor is jacked onto it or how much body it has. But with your character's 10 dice, your powerbolts will fizzle against drones and vehicles, and you don't have any other way to hurt them.

[Dahrken]

When stunbolt is not fine is when you are fighting things that do not take Stun damage - 95% of which are drones and vehicles, and 5% of which are people with Pain Editors or Adrenaline Pumps.

Peoples with Pain Editors or running Adrenalin Pumps do take Stun damage. They don't feel it and ignore the Stun damage modifiers they would take without the bioware, but they will drop as soon as their Stun track is filled, like anybody else.

[Elfenlied]

Peoples with Pain Editors or running Adrenalin Pumps do take Stun damage. They don't feel it and ignore the Stun damage modifiers they would take without the bioware, but they will drop as soon as their Stun track is filled, like anybody else.

I thought you can't drop from a full stun track alone with an activated pain editor?

[Summerstorm]

Peoples with Pain Editors or running Adrenalin Pumps do take Stun damage. They don't feel it and ignore the Stun damage modifiers they would take without the bioware, but they will drop as soon as their Stun track is filled, like anybody else.

Pain Editor... No. They drop when they PHYSICALLY can't move anymore {when physical is full} up to that: They keep going. But oh well... TWO stunbolts should cure them from that *g*.

[Elfenlied]

Pain Editor... No. They drop when they PHYSICALLY can't move anymore {when physical is full} up to that: They keep going. But oh well... TWO stunbolts should cure them from that *g*.

Unless it's a Mage with a pain editor. I've seen plenty of those...

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, I should have been more specific about that, but my point stands.

[Dahrken]

Pain Editor... No. They drop when they PHYSICALLY can't move anymore {when physical is full} up to that: They keep going. But oh well... TWO stunbolts should cure them from that *g*.

Yes, sorry, I read a bit too fast and missed that.

[Udoshi]

I thought you can't drop from a full stun track alone with an activated pain editor?

They still take the damage. And it prevents you from going unconscious. At that point further damage carries over to the physical track, remember?
Its definitely not immunity.

Everything else I agree with, but I disagree with your analysis of Powerbolt vs. Indirect spells.

When stunbolt is not fine is when you are fighting things that do not take Stun damage - 95% of which are drones and vehicles, and 5% of which are people with Pain Editors or Adrenaline Pumps.

So you really should be analyzing "would I rather have Powerbolt or Lightning Bolt against a drone/vehicle," and the answer is that if you are really, REALLY powerful, Powerbolt starts getting better because you just go up against a flat 5 OR, no matter how much armor is jacked onto it or how much body it has. But with your character's 10 dice, your powerbolts will fizzle against drones and vehicles, and you don't have any other way to hurt them.

Lets see. I can see where you're coming from, but there's more to it than that.
Also, you can't stunbolt a vehicle anyway. Mana spell no worky worky.

Indirect combat spells don't have to deal with object resistance, its true. But they have a worse drain code, especially if they're elemental, and this encourages you to cast at lower force.
For example, a force 6 powerbolt (f/2+1) is 4 drain, which is pretty managable, while a force 5(odd force is better due to rounding) is 3.
While a lightning bolt at the same force (f/2+3) is 7, which is getting to the point where it can fill up most of your stun track on a bad roll, and you're unlikely to soak it all.

Because Object Resistance is a threshold, you don't need to exceed the OR, just meet it. And remember that force caps hits. Putting this together means that a force 5 powerbolt is enough to damage any vehicle or drone - assuming you can get 5 hits.(as you said, it gets better the more powerful you are). Recall how thresholds and success tests interact - it works if you meet the threshold, net hits past that increase the damage.
Against people, its even worse - powerbolt is resisted with Body, and you roll two stats against one on the attack, with net hits on that increasing damage, and no soak.

The downside to lightning bolt is also based on having a small dice pool. With only 10 dice to toss a lightning bolt at something, (3-4 hits on average), your attack isn't likely to hit at all, because people can just go on full defense against it, and you've suddenly eaten a bunch of drain for nothing.
You might think you can get away with lowering the force a bit, to save on drain and adjust your force to the # of hits you see consistently - but that's just kind of self defeating because it makes it easier for your opponents to dodge(by lowering the ceiling on your hits) AND because it lowers your base damage on the spell - and if its low already, chances are its going to be soaked away, or mitigated enough it doesn't matter too much, even with the AP-half on the soak test from being elemental.
Electricity damage IS good, but also bear in mind that vehicles resist the zap effect of electrical damage with Body+armor(not half armor, per page 63). That means a doberman rolls 9 dice to avoid the stun, and a steel lynx rolls 13, and they only need to equal the hits on the attack to be unneffected.
If we're still using your 10 dice as an example, that's..... not very good odds.


But, basically, lightning bolt vs powerbolt comes down to these questions:
how many dice do I roll on the spell, and can I instakill a car if I drop edge on the test?
Can I deal with the drain afterwards, without also spending edge?
What force do I need to cast at to reliably kill a drone(having a max body of 4, large drones will have at most a max of 10 physical track)
What about with 1 net hit?
If I encounter a serious threat, and need to overcast for the extra damage, what force can I somewhat reliably/manage to deal with?
How sustainable is the spell in general? Can I cast it twice in a row without giving myself stun track penalties?

When deciding on direct vs indirect, those are some things to think about.

There are some benefits to indirect combat spells, though. Because they're treated like ranged attacks, you ought to be able to use Called Shots to boost your damage, if you can deal with the dice pool penalties, or take aim for extra dice.

[UmaroVI]

Drones don't actually have amazingly good range defense checks - they just roll Response. Yeah, they can full defense against it, but while they're full defensing, they aren't shooting and they need an autosoft to do it. Drones will usually only roll 3-4 dice to dodge an Indirect Spell, and if you're rolling 10 to hit you have excellent odds of connecting. On the other hand, with a Powerbolt, and 10 dice, you need 5 hits... that's terrible odds, you only have about a 21% chance of having an effect.

[Udoshi]

Unless there's a rigger inside, or someone Commanding it. (when you think about it, command 6+optimized 3 is a hell of a lot cheaper than a billion rating 4 autosofts at 4k each), then yeah, they have terrible dice pools. You're also forgetting about evasive driving.

If a gm is sending drones at you without backup, its basically like giving you free money, if your hacker is halfway competent.

[UmaroVI]

Evasive Driving is the equivalent of full defense and still takes a complex action. Command only helps you Full Defense; it doesn't raise the basic defense pool.

With 10 dice, the target needs fourteen dice for your odds of hitting with an elemental spell to be as low as your odds of hitting with powerbolt. Nothing is going to get that high without Full Defense actions, and a lot of drones can't get that high with full defense. I'd much rather have an attack spell that at least makes the drone Full Defense to avoid it, instead of an attack spell where the drone will laugh at you and then shoot you in the face.

For comparison, an average rigger (Command 6, skills at 3) remote-controlling an average, response 3 drone with Handling 0 (pretty reasonable - most combat drones have handling 0) has 3 dice on regular defense checks, which gives the mage an 86% chance of hitting, and with full defense has 9 dice, giving the mage a 46% chance of hitting - over twice as good as powerbolt even when the target goes on full defense.

Powerbolt is not a useless spell - but it's a terrible choice for a mage with 10 dice and no other way to hurt drones or vehicles.

[Udoshi]

Evasive Driving is the equivalent of full defense and still takes a complex action. Command only helps you Full Defense; it doesn't raise the basic defense pool.

Wrong.

Command replaces attribute in tests. You defend with reaction, or, in this case, reaction. (see common rolls for riggers, 4a 247)

Your dice are hella off.

Command 6 + hot sim 2 = 8 dice on defense tests, passive defense.
+ dodge or pilot on full defense.

A jumped in rigger is just as good - response of 4 base, for a probable Security class drone, 2 for the hot sim, 2 for the control rig = 8 dice on defense tests, passive defense. Which is, coincidentally, the same amount as command, just achieved with dice pool modifiers instead of a higher 'attribute'.

Using your example of 3 skill, thats 11 dice against any decently(we are not even talking heavily optimized here) controlled drone.
Thats MORE dice on the defense than on the attack you're proposing! Even before the possibility of counterspelling!

The reason powerbolt is great is the drain is low enough you can keep on trying until it works, and it bypasses defenses, unlike lightning bolt which has multiple states in which it can fail to do what you want (hit, do damage, or stun). With the dice you're putting out, it has a good chance of being resisted or evaded, and a much higher drain code to resist on 12 dice.

[UmaroVI]

Wrong.

Command replaces attribute in tests. You defend with reaction, or, in this case, reaction. (see common rolls for riggers, 4a 247)

Your dice are hella off.

Command 6 + hot sim 2 = 8 dice on defense tests, passive defense.
+ dodge or pilot on full defense.

A jumped in rigger is just as good - response of 4 base, for a probable Security class drone, 2 for the hot sim, 2 for the control rig = 8 dice on defense tests, passive defense. Which is, coincidentally, the same amount as command, just achieved with dice pool modifiers instead of a higher 'attribute'.

Using your example of 3 skill, thats 11 dice against any decently(we are not even talking heavily optimized here) controlled drone.
Thats MORE dice on the defense than on the attack you're proposing! Even before the possibility of counterspelling!

You are right on the passive defense check using command; I got that one mixed up. I also wasn't adding hot-sim but now that I think about it, a command rigger has no reason not to hotsim. However, none of what you've said actually changes things, because the margins were so huge. With 8 dice passive defense and 11 dice active defense, your odds are STILL better with lightning bolt than powerbolt!

Your odds with Lightning Bolt are 53% if they don't dodge, 34% if they do. Versus 21% with powerbolt, and they don't need to dodge to get that. I'll take my entire 1 point more drain in order to nearly triple my chances of the spell working.

[Mardrax]

You are right on the passive defense check using command; I got that one mixed up. I also wasn't adding hot-sim but now that I think about it, a command rigger has no reason not to hotsim.

I'm not really familiar with the rules for rigging, and AFB right now, but wasn't there something about riggers suffering damage when their rigged drones do? Which would be physical if they're hotsimming? See how that Lightning Bolt or Wreck Drone tastes, in all BTL goodness.
Plus the illegality of hotsimming, of course, which won't stop a AAA from doing it in the comfort of the laws they create by extraterritoriality, but will definitely stop most smaller company's riggers.